Israel attacks Gaza

[Samalander]

[quote name='The Brucer' post='1631567' date='Dec 27 2008, 22.44']1) the number in question seems to be about 16 dozen.
2) on tit-for-tat: this is an entirely useless term when dealing with this discrepancy of violence. the expression implies some kind of symmetrical reciprocity in action. just today we are dealing with a situation where one side has lost a single individual, and the other side has lost 192.
3) let's call this what it is: another maneuver in a slow policy of genocide.[/quote]
1) That is the total number of casualities. I was talking about civilian casualities.
So 12*16 = 192. Minus the twelve or so civilians caught in the line of fire = 180 dead militants.
2) As for numerical disparity : It just means our army is that good, and their militants are that bad.
They are shocked and hunted. Is it any wonder they have trouble killing innocent people? That was the goal of this undertaking, after all. Are we supposed to let more of our people die so the world will feel better about the whole thing? Here is another way of looking at this : Of the casualties today ours are 100% civilian, and theirs are ~12/192 = 6.25% civilian.
3) Let's call you what you are: a despicable bastard.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Ashaman' post='1631570' date='Dec 27 2008, 22.46']well now the world get to see how israeli election campains look like, if you dont kill and retalliate hard towards the palastinians you have a slim chanse of geting elected comming next election. and becours next election are not that fare off one need to hit realy hard so that no one can come sniking up behind you and say you did not acted though egnof. damn this is just bread and sircus, and a newly added remedy; blood.[/quote]
Actually, no. If the shit hits the fan on this undertaking the political losses will be massive. All of our leaders wished this could be delayed post election, but Hamas was really banking on it and shooting rockets like there is no accountability because of the upcoming election. We had no choice but to act.
This is so not bread and circus. What the hell is the first imperative of any nation? Keep your people safe from harm. When you have cities bombarded with rockets there is no choice but to take action.

[baxus]

guys, keep in mind that there is no black and white in this kind of situations...

is either side really innocent in this confrontation?
could you honestly say that one side started it first and that the other just acts in self-defense?

don't take for granted that what you read online or in the papers, or what you see on tv is what's really happening there...
propaganda is a very useful tool (or even weapon) in getting people on your side...

trust me on this, i've had first-hand experience of media manipulation, growing up in a Serbia during the 90s...

unless you are ready, willing and able to do a thorough study of the problem at hand, don't touch it with a 10 foot pole...

[Samalander]

A few fun facts :
1) There are no more Israeli settlements in the Gaza strip. We evacuated all of them.
2) There isn't a single Israeli soldier inside the Gaza strip (except for the one they kidnapped).
3) The Gaza strip is ruled by Palestinian Islamic fundamentalists, elected by their people (only to abolish election when they came to power). They consider the destruction of Israel a viable goal.
4) Despite 1,2 and maybe because of 3 they periodically shoot rockets into Israel, keeping the south of the country in perpetual terror in spite of the existance of cease fire accords they agreed to.

[Altherion]

[quote name='The Brucer' post='1631567' date='Dec 27 2008, 21.44']on tit-for-tat: this is an entirely useless term when dealing with this discrepancy of violence. the expression implies some kind of symmetrical reciprocity in action. just today we are dealing with a situation where one side has lost a single individual, and the other side has lost 192.[/quote]
It's tit-for-tat given the discrepancy in power.
[quote]let's call this what it is: another maneuver in a slow policy of genocide.[/quote]
This is nonsense and you know it. If Israel had wanted to commit genocide, they could have done it a long time ago. This is just a means of getting people to pay attention to the fact that Hamas is constantly firing rockets into Israel. The Arab League has scheduled an emergency meeting for tomorrow; they'll come up with some terms which Hamas will then partially comply with and for a time the violence will cease.

The US has taken a surprisingly unequivocal position on this (they generally refrain from directly blaming one side and call both sides to cease fire):

[quote]Washington did not call for an end to the Israeli attacks but urged it to avoid civilian casualties and placed the onus for ending the violence squarely on Hamas, which it considers a terrorist organization.
...
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice expressed concern about the escalating violence and called for immediate restoration of the ceasefire. "We strongly condemn the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and hold Hamas responsible for breaking the ceasefire and for the renewal of violence there," she said in a statement.[/quote]
[url="http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE4BQ1T220081227"]http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNew...E4BQ1T220081227[/url]

[Rane]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1631624' date='Dec 27 2008, 19.43']A few fun facts :
1) There are no more Israeli settlements in the Gaza strip. We evacuated all of them.
2) There isn't a single Israeli soldier inside the Gaza strip (except for the one they kidnapped).
3) The Gaza strip is ruled by Palestinian Islamic fundamentalists, elected by their people (only to abolish election when they came to power). They consider the destruction of Israel a viable goal.
4) Despite 1,2 and maybe because of 3 they periodically shoot rockets into Israel, keeping the south of the country in perpetual terror in spite of the existance of cease fire accords they agreed to.[/quote]
A few other fun facts:
1) Israel has full control of all land and sea borders of Gaza and of the air space. Which they keep closed for most of the time.
2) They still enter at will.
3) They were elected alright, but Israel, US and PNA rejected the outcome and refused to deal with Hamas. The Hamas takeover of Gaza came more than a year later, after Fatah refused several times handing over the power.
4) See 1.

[Werthead]

[quote]ETA: If this is genocide, than the Israelis really suck at it.[/quote]

Agreed, if the Israelis really wanted to commit genocide on the Gaza Strip it would be really fucking easy to do so. The thing is only 4 miles wide for most of its length. You could sit artillery at one end and creeping barrage the whole thing from one end to the other. The fact that Israel doesn't do that suggests that genocide is not the goal.

At the same time, it's difficult to see Israel's response as anything other than disproportionate, but that given that Hamas can presumably launch these rockets from anywhere inside the Strip (given its minute size) it must be incredibly difficult for Israel to target those responsible without hitting civilians and civilian infrastructure.

Like I said before, you can spin this either way really easily. Israel is the big bad monster bombing indiscriminately into an area packed with civilians or Hamas is hiding behind civilians hoping that will stop Israel from responding. Israel is getting some criticism due to the savagery of the response (no Israelis had died prior to the attacks beginning) whilst the blame for 'starting it' is being pretty squarely laid on Hamas, even by a lot of the Palestinians themselves.

If this is partially a political maneuver for the elections, what are the odds on Israel going after Iran's nuclear sites as well?

[Dinsdale!]

[quote name='rANE' post='1631690' date='Dec 27 2008, 17.59']3) They were elected alright, but Israel, US and PNA rejected the outcome and refused to deal with Hamas. The Hamas takeover of Gaza came more than a year later, after Fatah refused several times handing over the power.[/quote]

Who actually does? I don't see this terrible international condemnation that Gilad Shalit hasn't been allowed to see the Red Cross during his captivity.
What I do see is a lot of soft-glove treatment on the international level, which reminds me only of the way I treat crazies and children. Hamas isn't treated by any NATO member I know of as a rational actor with any awareness of international accords. I wouldn't be surprised if the Arab countries didn't either, but that's outside my portfolio.

[Inigima]

Wert, thanks for bringing some sanity to the discussion.

[quote name='Werthead' post='1631712' date='Dec 27 2008, 18.23']At the same time, it's difficult to see Israel's response as anything other than disproportionate, but that given that Hamas can presumably launch these rockets from anywhere inside the Strip (given its minute size) it must be incredibly difficult for Israel to target those responsible without hitting civilians and civilian infrastructure.[/quote]
I suspect the motivation is precisely to demonstrate that they are willing to do so -- make it clear that yes, if they lay a finger on Israelis, there's gonna be some shit. In that way I would guess they hope to intimidate Hamas into stopping.

I'm not optimistic that it will work.

[SquireThomas]

Given this:

[quote]The air offensive followed weeks of intense Palestinian rocket and mortar fire on southern Israel, and Israeli leaders had issued increasingly tough warnings in recent days that they would not tolerate continued attacks.[/quote]

I don't really see what other choice the Israeli leadership had. The attacks were constantly increasing, Hamas was warned, and didn't stop. At this point, they either had to strike or look toothless, not to mention leaving their citizens under constant bombardment.

Stranger:


I'm curious: if you were the PM of Israel, what actions, exactly, would you have taken?

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='The Brucer' post='1631567' date='Dec 27 2008, 14.44']on tit-for-tat: this is an entirely useless term when dealing with this discrepancy of violence. the expression implies some kind of symmetrical reciprocity in action. just today we are dealing with a situation where one side has lost a single individual, and the other side has lost 192. let's call this what it is: another maneuver in a slow policy of genocide.[/quote]

Why exactly are you penalizing the Israeli's for being more successful at violence? Its not like the Palestinians weren't trying. They did fire 300+ mortars and rockets over the last week. They've been launching them periodically for weeks before that. Their aim just sucks apparently. That shouldn't be reason to demand that the Israeli's tie their hands on the matter. But I would agree, it doesn't qualify as a tit for tat. Because the Palestinians have been 'titting' hundreds of times over the last many weeks and the Israeli's have only responded with one big TAT thus far.

And the genocide comment is silly. You know better. They could do it with relative ease if that was their actual policy.

[quote]as per the policy, i get most of my information from arcane, mysterious things called 'books.' dunno what you'll find on the interwebs.[/quote]

This is the second time (at least) you got all smug and self-righteous about your 'book learning'. Most people here read books too. (go figure). Yet there are a ton of books out there and its quite likely we haven't read the same ones you have. But if there was something truly sinister about their policy related to a current event as major as this one, i guarantee it could be found in some article on the web somewhere. So if you're gonna make the claim, than do the damned legwork to back it up. Don't just thump your chest and shout 'I read books, so there!!' Its really quite childish.

[quote]I'm curious: if you were the PM of Israel, what actions, exactly, would you have taken?[/quote]

Good question. Curious myself.

[Shryke]

How did "tit-for-tat" and such work agaist the Germans after WWI? Remember Nixon going to China? How'd that work out again? Sometimes you gotta be a big boy and work with you enemies towards long term peace instead of getting your vengeance on.

Look, Israel has 2 choices here. Take the high road, act like he Western Democracy they claim to be and drop this kind of shit or just go all out and wipe the Palestinians out. Cause these half measures are just gonna make this go on forever.

[Altherion]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1631903' date='Dec 28 2008, 06.29']Look, Israel has 2 choices here. Take the high road, act like he Western Democracy they claim to be and drop this kind of shit or just go all out and wipe the Palestinians out. Cause these half measures are just gonna make this go on forever.[/quote]
Your last sentence constitutes Choice #3. In this instance, they're acting exactly like a Western Democracy... in fact, a particularly patient and lenient one at that. What do you think would happen if somebody fired rockets into the United States? Israel tolerated this for weeks, sent warnings directly, sent warnings through others (e.g. Egypt) and only then acted.

[Shryke]

Choice #3 is just a prolongation of the problem.

[Inigima]

So same question to you, Shryke: What would you do if you directed foreign policy for Israel?

[Samalander]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1631712' date='Dec 28 2008, 01.23']If this is partially a political maneuver for the elections, what are the odds on Israel going after Iran's nuclear sites as well?[/quote]
Hell no, on both counts.
This is not a political maneuver since the only person who might benefit (Defense Minister) has so much more to lose if this goes badly and soldiers start coming back in body bags.
Iran is not Iraq. Iraq had it's nuclear facilities in one convenient location. Iran spread them out.
Iran is a regional power to be reckoned with. Israel does not (yet?) have an anti misslie umbrella efficient enough to avoid an Iranian countersrike (which is expected in the event of an attack).
A Nuclear Iran is a global problem (as opposed to Gaza, which apparently is just ours). It's time the world took notice.

[Altherion]

Hamas has begun to retaliate (as everyone probably expected):

[quote]Israeli police say a missile from Gaza hit near the city of Ashdod in the deepest missile strike inside Israel yet.

Regional police spokeswoman Sarit Philipson says she was driving home Sunday when she saw the missile hit the ground near Ashdod, about 23 miles from Gaza.

In Gaza, Hamas claimed responsibility for firing the missile[/quote]
[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081228/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081228/ap_on_...el_palestinians[/url]

Interestingly enough, they don't appear to be arguing that the Israeli strikes were off-target:
[quote]At least 230 people were killed in one of the Mideast conflict's bloodiest attacks in decades. Most of the casualties in the attacks were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead.[/quote]

[Samalander]

[quote name='Altherion' post='1631966' date='Dec 28 2008, 10.50']Interestingly enough, they don't appear to be arguing that the Israeli strikes were off-target:[/quote]
Is it ok to now say "I told you so"?

[oneeye]

Where do the Palestinians get rockets from? They barely have enough food even.

The only solution is for one of the two peoples to move to Montana.

I'm more worries about India/Pakistan atm, sigh.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Bach' post='1632004' date='Dec 28 2008, 13.51']Where do the Palestinians get rockets from? They barely have enough food even.[/quote]
Iran is happy to supply arms, money, training and whatever else is needed to keep the conflict going. As for delivery, they have a massive tunnels network into Egypt. Practicaly an underground city.