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Werthead

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

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[quote name='wathombe' post='1663406' date='Jan 26 2009, 19.41']Darkstar is just a nickname, just like "Kingslayer" or "Sword of the Morning."[/quote]

Like Kingslayer, yes, but I think Sword of the Morning is different. It's more of a title than a nickname, held by one Dayne at a time. Myrcella asks Gerold if he is the current Sword of the Morning, and [url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Valyria_related_Subjects/"]this SSM[/url] implies that's how it works:

[quote][i]What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?[/i]

Dawn remains at Starfall, [b]until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.
[/b][/quote]

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A title, but there doesn't seem to be any formula for it as far as we've seen. If a Dayne is a particularly good knight then the house may bestow the sword and name on him. I don't think they've exactly made any specific rules about it or that there are any prophesies about it. .

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[quote name='Venardhi' post='1663709' date='Jan 27 2009, 04.24']A title, but there doesn't seem to be any formula for it as far as we've seen. If a Dayne is a particularly good knight then the house may bestow the sword and name on him. I don't think they've exactly made any specific rules about it or that there are any prophesies about it. .[/quote]

Very true, its a bit cryptic. I made some idle speculation about the possibilities [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=33096&view=findpost&p=1630298"]here[/url], but I don't think we have the clues we need quite yet (if we ever will).

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I just had another thought.

I'm not sure if it was this thread or another one where we discussed how many people were in the ToJ to know of Lyanna's pregnancy. But, if we take the N+A=J stance, how would Ashara of hidden it from her people? She was a public figure, more or less, and a prominent noble in the House of Dayne. If she was pregnant at any time during the war, there would have been talk.

Lyanna, however, was hidden away in the Tower of Joy with few people there - only the Kingsguard.

If anything, I think that further discredits the N+A=J theory and helps strengthen the R+L=J theory.

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The "answer " to the Ashara pregnancy thing might be that we just haven't been in Dorne long enough and haven't met anyone who would be dwelling on it.

Still, Ashara being pregnant before Brandon's death would've required an immediate marriage as far as I'm concerned. Reference Robb's shotgun wedding to Jeyne. Honor's on the line here, and at that time Ned has no reason not to marry her. If the idea is that Ned and Ashara got it on [i]during[/i] the war, somehow a clandestine meeting set against the drama of a war-torn land between two star-crossed lovers all sounds a little too much like one of Sansa's songs to me ...

Yeah, N+A=<3 does not necessarily mean N+A=J, as far as I'm concerned.

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[quote name='Piper' post='1663579' date='Jan 26 2009, 20.11']Like Kingslayer, yes, but I think Sword of the Morning is different. It's more of a title than a nickname, held by one Dayne at a time. Myrcella asks Gerold if he is the current Sword of the Morning, and [url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Valyria_related_Subjects/"]this SSM[/url] implies that's how it works:[/quote]

Ah. Fair point on Sword of the Morning. I suppose I overreached there. My main points still stands, however, that Gerold Dayne isn't a bastard, else he'd be Gerold Sand.

And that's enough of that tangent, I suppose.

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For what its worth, I will say that whether or not R+L=J, I'm thoroughly convinced that L + (someone) = J. Based on all the things we know about Ned, all of his inner dialogue, the "promise", it seems highly likely that Lyanna is Jon's mother. The nail in the coffin for me is Dany's vision of the blue flower growing on the ice wall. She saw things in those visions we KNOW turned true, like the murdered king at a feast with a wolf's head. Jon is Lyanna's.

I am completely open to speculation on who the father is, with Rhaegar being the front runner, but I'm pretty convinced that Lyanna is the mom. Of course if Martin went another way that'd be fine, I'm not one of these "I'll burn my books if..." types.

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its common knowledge that Ned killed Arthur Dayne.
Him and 6 of his buddies went to the Tower of Joy. Amongst them was Howland Reed. Ned revisits it in a dream in AGOT. Anyways, Ned and his 6 fight Dayne and the other two KG, and at the end of the fight only Ned and Howland Reed are alive. Ned states that he would have been dead if it were not for Howland.
I don't see any way how Jon could be fathered by Rhaegar and Lyanna. Jon, much like Arya, actually looks like Ned, while the rest of the Stark brood have Catelyn's hair and complexion. Lyanna had lighter hair than Ned, and Rhaegar obviously had the violet eyes and silver-blonde hair that the Targaryen's are famous for. Ned and Edric Dayne both mention Wyalla as Jon's father, so here's my theory.
Ashara Dayne threw herself from the Tower after Ned had brought home her husband's sword. She was torn by grief, since she loved Ned, but could no longer bear to see him after he killed Arthur. After she killed herself, Wyalla arrived, to comfort Ned. This led to the procreation of Jon, and Ned probably feeling the same shame shared by Ares Oakheart when he fucks Arianne. I'm pretty sure it mentioned Ned falling in love with Ashara before Brandon's death and his marriage to Catelyn, and he obviously wasn't thinking clearly and needed comfort when Wyalla arrived.

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[quote name='lcjonsnow24' post='1669032' date='Jan 31 2009, 00.02']Jon, much like Arya, actually looks like Ned[/quote]
Ned specifically states that Arya looks like Lyanna.
[quote]Lyanna had lighter hair than Ned[/quote]
Do you have a quote for that?

ETA: Seriously, does anyone know if there's any basis in the series for Lyanna's hair colour? Maybe someone who doesn't think Ashara Dayne and Arthur Dayne were married? :P

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[quote]ETA: Seriously, does anyone know if there's any basis in the series for Lyanna's hair colour? Maybe someone who doesn't think Ashara Dayne and Arthur Dayne were married? tongue.gif[/quote]

Well Arya is said to look like her.

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[quote name='lcjonsnow24' post='1669032' date='Jan 30 2009, 23.02']its common knowledge that Ned killed Arthur Dayne.
Him and 6 of his buddies went to the Tower of Joy. Amongst them was Howland Reed. Ned revisits it in a dream in AGOT. Anyways, Ned and his 6 fight Dayne and the other two KG, and at the end of the fight only Ned and Howland Reed are alive. Ned states that he would have been dead if it were not for Howland.[/quote]

There were seven other buddies. Also I don't really think it can be said for certain who killed Dayne, and it's company policy to mention that GRRM has said that dream might not have been completely factually accurate.

[quote]Jon, much like Arya, actually looks like Ned, while the rest of the Stark brood have Catelyn's hair and complexion.[/quote]

If Ned and Lyanna both had the Stark look, then their children could get it just as easily. I've always thought that that scenario had more significance about Arya's character than Jon's parentage, anyway.

[quote]Rhaegar obviously had the violet eyes and silver-blonde hair that the Targaryen's are famous for.[/quote]

If the theory holds, Jon would not be the first half-Targaryen without silver-blonde hair and violet eyes.

[quote]Ashara Dayne threw herself from the Tower after Ned had brought home her husband's sword. She was torn by grief, since she loved Ned, but could no longer bear to see him after he killed Arthur. After she killed herself, Wyalla arrived, to comfort Ned. This led to the procreation of Jon[/quote]

Not unreasonable at all, but it's pretty well-established that Jon was conceived sometime during the war. He and Robb were very similar in age throughout their lives so they were probably conceived around the same time. If Ashara is the mother, it would make more sense that Jon was conceived BEFORE Ned married Catelyn, but the way the characters deal with Jon, doesn't make it seem likely.

[quote]I'm pretty sure it mentioned Ned falling in love with Ashara before Brandon's death and his marriage to Catelyn.[/quote]

Be confident: you have two sources backing that one up. Edric Dayne and the Knight of the Laughing Tree story.

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Icjonsnow24 said:

"its common knowledge that Ned killed Arthur Dayne.
Him and 6 of his buddies went to the Tower of Joy. Amongst them was Howland Reed. Ned revisits it in a dream in AGOT. Anyways, Ned and his 6 fight Dayne and the other two KG, and at the end of the fight only Ned and Howland Reed are alive. Ned states that he would have been dead if it were not for Howland.
I don't see any way how Jon could be fathered by Rhaegar and Lyanna. Jon, much like Arya, actually looks like Ned, while the rest of the Stark brood have Catelyn's hair and complexion. Lyanna had lighter hair than Ned, and Rhaegar obviously had the violet eyes and silver-blonde hair that the Targaryen's are famous for. Ned and Edric Dayne both mention Wyalla as Jon's father, so here's my theory.
Ashara Dayne threw herself from the Tower after Ned had brought home her husband's sword. She was torn by grief, since she loved Ned, but could no longer bear to see him after he killed Arthur. After she killed herself, Wyalla arrived, to comfort Ned. This led to the procreation of Jon, and Ned probably feeling the same shame shared by Ares Oakheart when he fucks Arianne. I'm pretty sure it mentioned Ned falling in love with Ashara before Brandon's death and his marriage to Catelyn, and he obviously wasn't thinking clearly and needed comfort when Wyalla arrived."

Shewoman: Jon has the Stark look, not the Tully look Arya (and, I think, Robb) had; which suggests that he must have had a Stark parent. Ned and Edric Dayne both mention Wylla as Jon's MOTHER, not father, and it was Ashara's brother's sword--not her father's--that Ned returned to the Daynes. Meera's decscription of the pre-war Tournament at Harrenhal suggests that Ashara and Ned developed a bit of a thing for each other there, and that was long before Brandon's death (or any thought of a Stark/Arryn/Tully alliance against Aerys).

It's my impression that Starfall is Wylla's home. She's apparently living there in the series present day. If Jon was conceived whie Ned was at Starfall after the war, he'd be substantially younger than Robb, who (according to Catelyn) was conceived on his parents' wedding night a few months into the war. Catelyn has said that she thinks Robb is the older of the two and she may be right, but I think that the boys are close in age.

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[quote name='Robb19' post='1669159' date='Jan 31 2009, 04.50']If the theory holds, Jon would not be the first half-Targaryen without silver-blonde hair and violet eyes.[/quote]

Not even close. Rhaenys, Rhaegar's daughter, took after her mother Elia in her Dornish coloring. Baelor Breakspear does the same.

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couple things
I never said Arthur and Ashara were married; they were not
I did say that Jon was created during the war
And it does say that Ned slew Arthur in single combat, although I'm pretty sure Howland was fighting Dayne at the same time
Regardless of that, Bran recalls his father saying, on pg. 332 in ACoK, The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed".
and it is said that Arya has the Stark look, in one of Jon's very first POV chapters in AGoT
and thanks Shewoman, clearly I meant mother

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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1669419' date='Jan 31 2009, 13.10']Jon has the Stark look, not the Tully look Arya (and, I think, Robb) had; which suggests that he must have had a Stark parent.[/quote]

Both Jon and Arya look like Starks. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon all fall on the Tully side.

[quote name='lcjonsnow24' post='1669487' date='Jan 31 2009, 14.43']I did say that Jon was created during the war[/quote]
Well your idea was that Jon was conceived while Ned was at Starfall where he went, by any common definition, after the war.

[quote]And it does say that Ned slew Arthur in single combat, although I'm pretty sure Howland was fighting Dayne at the same time
Regardless of that, Bran recalls his father saying, on pg. 332 in ACoK, The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed".[/quote]
My mistake. In a Cat chapter in AGOT she mentions that she heard that Ned killed Arthur Dayne in single combat, however that conflicts with the quote your provide where Ned makes it sound distinctively unlike single combat (if Howland helped him and all).

[quote]and it is said that Arya has the Stark look, in one of Jon's very first POV chapters in AGoT[/quote]

Right. This is mentioned a lot throughout the series. Ned tells her that she looks like Lyanna and Arya is shocked because Lyanna was beautiful whereas no one thinks Arya is pretty. Where did Lyanna's lighter hair come from, though?

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[quote name='Robb19' post='1669561' date='Jan 31 2009, 17.22']Where did Lyanna's lighter hair come from, though?[/quote]
Apparently only from lcjonsnow24's imagination.

lcjonsnow24,
[quote]I never said Arthur and Ashara were married; they were not[/quote]
You said this:
[quote][b]Ashara Dayne[/b] threw herself from the Tower after Ned had brought home[b] her husband's sword[/b].[/quote]
If Arthur was Ashara's "husband" as you said, they would be married.

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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1669620' date='Jan 31 2009, 18.53']Apparently only from lcjonsnow24's imagination.

lcjonsnow24,

You said this:

If Arthur was Ashara's "husband" as you said, they would be married.[/quote]

Sansa, Robb, Brandon and Rickon have Tully Auburn hair.

Arya, Jon, and Lyana have dark Stark hair.

And why do you think Ashara threw herself off a tower? As near as I can tell someone (unnamed) reported that Ashara threw herself off a tower. The body was never recovered. FYI to the new readers, if GRRM uses facts to lead you one way and emotion to lead you another, trust the facts. There is a very real chance that the Ashara suicide was a fake (not certain but likely), The real issue is why would she fake her death.

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[quote name='Howlin' Howland' post='1669834' date='Feb 1 2009, 00.26']FYI to the new readers, if GRRM uses facts to lead you one way and emotion to lead you another,[b] trust the facts[/b].[/quote]

I agree with your underlying point, Howlin, but the problem arises, everyone thinks the "facts" point to their conclusion. What separates people with good reasoning skills from those with bad reasoning skills is the simple admission that evidence can lead to more than one conclusion. If people would just try to look through the eyes of their adversaries, they could arrive at the "best" conclusion. If the evidence can be reasonably interpreted to satisfy someone's theory, that theory is valid. The secret to deductive reasoning is finding that what evidence [b]taken as a whole[/b], can only satisfy one theory.

Artanaro

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[quote name='Artanaro' post='1670386' date='Feb 1 2009, 18.01']I agree with your underlying point, Howlin, but the problem arises, everyone thinks the "facts" point to their conclusion. What separates people with good reasoning skills from those with bad reasoning skills is the simple admission that evidence can lead to more than one conclusion. If people would just try to look through the eyes of their adversaries, they could arrive at the "best" conclusion. If the evidence can be reasonably interpreted to satisfy someone's theory, that theory is valid. The secret to deductive reasoning is finding that what evidence [b]taken as a whole[/b], can only satisfy one theory.

Artanaro[/quote]


Well said art. Most of my theories are besed on speculation which may or may not pan out. I'm waiting on adwd just like you.

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