A script review. - SPOILERS

[fitheach]

There is a chance that this script is a red herring, or something put out there by the competition to cause upset with the fans...And it seems to be working.
I wouldn't worry about this script when it may not be the real deal, or it was a very early version that has been changed many times since.

Just wait and see, be patient.

[The hairy bear]

[quote name='fitheach' post='1705552' date='Mar 3 2009, 05.16']There is a chance that this script is a red herring, or something put out there by the competition to cause upset with the fans...And it seems to be working.[/quote]

I don't know why you say so. Many people likes the script, considers it very faithful to the novels and agrees that many of the changes benefit the story. Most complains are questioning only one scene. I wouldn't say that "fans are upset" with this script. Far from that.

[fitheach]

[quote name='The hairy bear' post='1705690' date='Mar 3 2009, 03.12']I don't know why you say so. Many people likes the script, considers it very faithful to the novels and agrees that many of the changes benefit the story. Most complains are questioning only one scene. I wouldn't say that "fans are upset" with this script. Far from that.[/quote]


I don't have a problem with the script, I haven't read any version of it...And yes many people seem to be happy with it, but some are a tad nitpicky about it.

It seems that Venardhi (the person who started this thread) has a problem with whatever script he or she read, or seems to be unhappy with it. At least that's what I gather from reading his/her synopsis. I've read the Winter Is Coming blog post on a script version he/she read, and also Brude's synopsis (also on Winter Is Coming blog) of the script read by him/her and they both seem to be happy with the overall arch of the pilot.

What I wrote previously is that the version Venardhi read may be a red herring or an earlier script, and not the same as what Brude read or what Winter Is Coming read.... They could all be wrong, or all right but different incarnations.

Picking apart the scene with Ned and Jaime, Benjen being older than Ned, Lyanna's flowers being changed to sunlight and clouds, etc, etc... These aren't really huge deals! I think if the major stuff is still there- we will be very happy with the outcome.
I understand the reason for forcing an issue between Ned and Jaime early on, they have to set a tension between the Houses Stark and Lannister. This isn't the novel, it's a 60 minute show that has to pack in alot of information into a short period of time.
They are being faithful (from what I gather) to the storyline, but not doggedly so. We shouldn't expect them to be.

So what I'm saying is, let's not get our pants in a bunch over it since we don't really know until we see the show. :wideeyed:

[Venardhi]

My nitpicks are of things that are changed for seemingly no reason. Is there a specific reason Benjen should say 'dip your wick' rather than 'sire a few bastards'(which actually has dramatic reason behind it)? Is there a reason Lyanna should be under sunlight rather than surrounded by flowers (which she is so often associated with)? No. The lines worked better as they were and shouldn't have been changed.

[Mike the Magnar]

[quote name='Venardhi' post='1710044' date='Mar 5 2009, 20.42']My nitpicks are of things that are changed for seemingly no reason. Is there a specific reason Benjen should say 'dip your wick' rather than 'sire a few bastards'(which actually has dramatic reason behind it)? Is there a reason Lyanna should be under sunlight rather than surrounded by flowers (which she is so often associated with)? No. The lines worked better as they were and shouldn't have been changed.[/quote]

Correct. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But, if it doesn't matter who cares. Between these two statements lies the proper formula for novel-to-screen fiction. Ned going to one knee doesn't matter so who cares, I know they are best buds but it almost seems characteristic for Ned to do it. The flowers thing; I have read the series (as is) twice, and don't really remember the whole Lyanna and flowers thing, probably because it has no bearing on the story, the point is the comparison between her and beauty, the way in which this effect is delivered matters little to none. The dip your wick line is bad, and that is understatement; shaming is more suitable. It isn't a broken line from the book, and it does matter. It has importance to Jon's character and development and decision making, taking it out is a terrible idea, and if they do actually don't have him say that, they should at least introduce something similiar to make up for it so the audience can understand his motivations. Not to mention, there is no line more corny in the whole series, not even close. So out of place...so terrible.

"Dip your wick a few times!" Please say it out loud and feel the embarrassment set in. I will feel gay as a fan just hearing it.

[telobsidion]

Everyone seems to forget that Ned DID go down on one knee in the books.

[howland_reed]

Read the script. I've also read many scripts back in college and when I used to work as an intern for a studio.

Overall, it's a solid pilot, both true to the book and very well paced.

My only gripe with it is the scene between Ned and Jaime. The dialogue is stilted, the characters are out of character, and frankly, there's no need to setup this Stark v. Lannister rivalry in this way. It's already done better in the yard with Robb and Joffrey. Moreover, Ned and Jaime's relationship in the book is very distant, especially since Ned was the one who found Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne when King Aerys was killed. Knowing that, I can't see these two really making any sort of small talk to each other, ever. Any rivalry between these two should be done through silence, and quickshots of the two eyeing each other.

As for other complaints in this thread, most are unwarranted.

Age is mostly for casting purposes (ie. get someone in their 40s for Benjen). Since these ages are never said aloud, it's a moot complaint.

Line changes like "dip your wick" or "sunlight" rather than "flowers" don't hurt the overall sense of the characters or the plot. Moreover, it's Robert who states that Lyanna would've preferred to be in the sun. My interpretation of the book is that the two never really had a significant relationship. Robert was infatuated with her, likely in love, but I doubt he hardly knew her or that Lyanna even reciprocated his love. In any case, her motif of flowers is based off something Rhaegar gave her, not Robert.

[Mike the Magnar]

Agreed, on the flowers and the knee thing (i wasn't sure).

Dip your wick...

Absolutely you are wrong. It is unnecessary, corny, stupefying, out of character (for anyone in the entire Ice and Fire world) and detaches from the importance of the transaction between the two.

Terrible...

[howland_reed]

[quote name='Mike the Magnar' post='1710146' date='Mar 6 2009, 02.02']Agreed, on the flowers and the knee thing (i wasn't sure).

Dip your wick...

Absolutely you are wrong. It is unnecessary, corny, stupefying, out of character (for anyone in the entire Ice and Fire world) and detaches from the importance of the transaction between the two.

Terrible...[/quote]

It is corny and awkward, but I don't necessarily consider it out of character of the Westeros world. As for the importance of their transaction, the only thing that's lost is Jon's frustration of being reminded that he's a bastard.

Don't forget that a script is NEVER the final word. Actors and directors often pick up on awkward lines on the set and change it on the spot.

It's [b]scenes[/b] like Ned/Jaime that I'm worried about. Those need to be flat out cut, and a director won't necessarily do so unless he's read the book and know it's completely out of character for both Ned and Jaime.

[Mike the Magnar]

[quote]It's [b]scenes[/b] like Ned/Jaime that I'm worried about. Those need to be flat out cut, and a director won't necessarily do so unless he's read the book and know it's completely out of character for both Ned and Jaime.[/quote]


I have not read the script.

I am curious how the scene with Ned and Jaime goes though, because it doesn't seem necessary. However, since Ned has only the first season to get in and get out with lots of drama and fan following, I can see how it is relevant to add a scene here or there to keep the audience interested. Sometimes you gotta take one for the main stream.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Mike the Magnar' post='1710186' date='Mar 6 2009, 04.09']I have not read the script.

I am curious how the scene with Ned and Jaime goes though, because it doesn't seem necessary.[/quote]
It's a scene at the feast in which Jaime comes off like a whiny ditz and Ned is horribly forced to seem like a badass with a corny and cheesy line. The whole exchange is absolutely unnecessary and out of character for both of them.

But, truth be told, that's the only serious gripe I have with the script. If they lose it, it would be as good as possible.

[cybroleach]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1710269' date='Mar 6 2009, 06.02']It's a scene at the feast in which Jaime comes off like a whiny ditz and Ned is horribly forced to seem like a badass with a corny and cheesy line. The whole exchange is absolutely unnecessary and out of character for both of them.

But, truth be told, that's the only serious gripe I have with the script. If they lose it, it would be as good as possible.[/quote]

I don't think it's too out of character for Jaime, in the first book he seems just the type of ass to do something like this for a rise out of Ned. The change is in Ned making him a swordsman which for TV probably isn't that bad a move, that and this scene shows none of his disdain for finding Jaime on the throne.

[Rinso]

It's out of character for Jaime, because he keeps his resentment over the Aerys situation to himself. And the change of Ned is understandable, since he has to capture the casual audience as the main character, but I just don't dig it. Like he can't be made interesting if he's not forced to look like the badass warrior and military madman he never was in the books.

[howland_reed]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1711000' date='Mar 6 2009, 15.40']It's out of character for Jaime, because he keeps his resentment over the Aerys situation to himself. And the change of Ned is understandable, since he has to capture the casual audience as the main character, but I just don't dig it. Like he can't be made interesting if he's not forced to look like the badass warrior and military madman he never was in the books.[/quote]


Yeah, I have no trouble with Ned being a badass warrior. In fact, the book never says anything of it, so for all we know, he could be a great swordsman.

The point is, he doesn't boast about it like he does to Jaime. Something along the lines of, "I don't enter tourneys so as to hide my strength" for those who haven't read the script.

[Mongoose]

Overall, I think they've done a pretty good job. I tried to read it from the perspective of someone who isn't familiar with the books, because there's a lot of information they have to convey in that first episode that I think is easier to understand when read than if viewed, but they've handled it well enough. The one criticism I have in that respect is that Cersei's relation to Jaime and Tyrion is left a bit vague. It's clear that they are brothers (they refer to each other as such) and I'm sure many viewers will guess that Cersei is supposed to be their sister from the presentation, but it's never stated, and they don't make any reference to Jaime and Cersei being twins. Considering how much is going on in this episode and how many characters are being introduced, I think it would be very easy for someone completely new to the story to miss the fact that Jaime and Cersei are siblings, which is something that really should be firmly established before the "things I do for love" scene. Otherwise, the import (and shock) of what Bran witnesses will be diminished.

Other than that, the only thing that really bothered me was the conversation between Catelyn and Cersei. I think it's a good idea to have some kind of exchange between the two, but as written it seems awkward and a bit forced. I actually thought the Jaime/Ned exchange (while problematic) read better than the Catelyn/Cersei conversation, but that's me.

Also, did anyone else think the Jaime/Cersei sex scene was a bit off? I realize I'm nitpicking, but the hair pulling thing bothered me.

They've also added a few things that I really liked, particularly the exchange between Bran and Catelyn about climbing. It's an opportunity to see her interacting with one of her younger children that we never get in the books, and it's very cute. The Arya/Bran food fight was a nice touch as well.

[aryanna of the north]

Say it ain't so, say this thing isn't as contrived as it sounds...
[quote name='Venardhi' post='1676970' date='Feb 6 2009, 13.27']I really hope this goes through another writer before it hits the set. Hell, give me a hundred bucks and a steak dinner and I'll do it myself.[/quote]

Not to try to outbid anybody here for imaginary writing positions for this show, but a writer's credit and a 12pack is all I need. Fine, credits and a 40 oz. Whatever, just give the job to someone who has hopefully at least flipped through the original text before taking this on. Preferably someone who has practically studied these books, but definitely not some group of hacks who were given the cliffnotes version before they started who is exactly who it sounds like they gave this to. come on, martin, you have GOT to know better.

so what about dany? arya? the direwolves?

[telobsidion]

The only scene in the script I don't like is the Ned/Jaime scene. I don't know why people are complaining about Catelyn and Cersei's exchange sounding forced and awkward, I'd think that would be the point.

[Halfhand]

[quote name='aryanna of the north' post='1711493' date='Mar 7 2009, 00.26']Whatever, just give the job to someone who has hopefully at least flipped through the original text before taking this on. Preferably someone who has practically studied these books, but definitely not some group of hacks who were given the cliffnotes version before they started who is exactly who it sounds like they gave this to. come on, martin, you have GOT to know better.[/quote]

I don't care what your thoughts on the pilot script are, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are dead wrong about this one. Benioff is neither a "hack" nor someone who was "given the cliffnotes version." He has written two critically acclaimed novels, and three (four if you count Wolverine) major film scripts. In addition, Benioff has stated before [url="http://winter-is-coming.blogspot.com/2008/12/benioff-hes-one-of-us.html"]his love for the series[/url] and gone on record saying he has read the whole thing.

[quote name='David Benioff']I was a huge fantasy fan when I was a kid. I was a Tolkien obsessive and read all of his books, including the commentary of The Silmarillion. But I've been away from fantasy since I was 14 or 15, since my Dungeons & Dragons days were over. A year or two ago, someone sent me these books by George R. R. Martin [the Song of Ice and Fire series]. There are four books and some of them are 1100 pages long. I had no interest in reading them. They had these cheesy fantasy covers, and that's just not something I'm into anymore. But I started the first one and, lo' and behold, 80 pages in, I got hooked and ended up reading all four books, all 4000 pages. I liked it so much that we're trying to do it as an HBO series now. In terms of just pure entertainment, I haven't had as much fun reading since I was a kid until I read those books.[/quote]

Also Martin himself has [url="http://www.georgerrmartin.com/archive07.html#01-18"]sat down with both Benioff and Weiss[/url] and had extensive conversations regarding the series and has given them his full support.

[quote name='George R. R. Martin']I met David and Dan in California last fall, when I was out for LACon, and we discussed the show over a long lunch (the restaurant was packed when we arrived, and completely empty when we left, and the waiters had started setting up for dinner). They impressed the hell out of me, and I'm really looking forward to working with them. They're both bright, passionate, enthusiastic. They know the books inside and out, they get the books, and they're committed to bringing my story to your television screens... not a vaguely similar story with the same title (ala Earthsea, or what passed for same on the Sci-Fi Channel). A Song of Ice and Fire should be in very good hands.[/quote]

I am confident that whatever small problems there are in this version of the script, they will be ironed out by the time this thing goes in front of the camera.

[Xanrn]

Huh whats this bit about Cersei looking around at the rough hewn Great Hall (of Winterfell) that would fit in the Kitchen of her Palace?

Seriously WTF...

Are far as I remember Winterfells Great Hall is one of the largest in Westeros and Winterfell itself is a massive sprawling Castle.

[Warden of the MidWest]

I didn't really like the fact that they seemed to have changed Jaime opening Aery's throat with a golden sword to stabbing him in the back with a spear. The golden sword seemed so much cooler and seems to fit his character more.