So what is this "Meereenese knot" Martin is referring to on his "not a blog"

[Lord Commander Snow]

I think it's a fairly safe bet to say the books are meant to conclude the stark's tale in westeros, and while there are other important characters, many of whom are driving the story, the stark family is who we started with, who we follow the most, page for page (i'd be pretty confident if we did a count), and whose story line needs resolved. And it's fairly obviuos they respresent the Ice in the Ice and Fire...

[The Wedge]

It was fairly obvious to me that Ned was a main character who would last a long time....

fairly obvious....

[Caine]

I'd prefer the story where Jon snow has to end up killing Dany for whatever twist of fate, and he has to slay a dragon.... it could very well be taht Melisandre teams up with dany, since she is the real deal... and eventually jon has to take them down.

I like this. I like it a-lot-a-lot-a-lot. Of course, I'm for any scenerio which offs Dany and/or her dragons.

[Lord Commander Snow]

Alright, how to prove it to you... What your basically saying is harry potter could die in the book series harry potter. No he can't the book series is about someone.

And not only is there too much plot line around the character, such as to hurt the book series a lot, we woudl have unresolved story arcs, it would render meaningless a lot of prior build up...

Secondly from a real world argument, it would crush sales...

But I really don't think you need to point that out, I think for people who've read a lot of books, in essense there is a reason you write about a certain story over another. The story where no one gets anywhere and all the main characters die, is not an interesting one. Of the starks left Jon is the only capable one, and the only one left to resolve their story arc. It's a matter of deduction. if Robb was still alive then yes Jon may have been the one to go.

I'm not saying Jon is immortal, there is peril he faces, he fried his hand already, but I think if death comes it's in the last line of the last book.

Eitherway it's a good story, and every story has someone we follow, and I think in this story that's Jon.

And I would lay my evidence down on all the current build up, and if you read the first book, what family do we follow... stark's are the Ice, and Jon is the only left to represent their frozen throne.

I don't think that's a bad thing, there obviously will be characters that go the distance.

---

It's like saying Frodo dies in LoTR or Richard Rahl in A Sword of Truth, if they die the story is done, we don't read more. Sure they can die whenever but that's when you're choosing to end that series, you can have a new one in the same universe.. Anyway they have to much build up around them, and it comes a point where there is only certain characters who can resolve a plot. and those characters are the reason you're writing about this moment in history, if they were to not resolve the plot, you wouldn't write the book in the first place.

I applaud martin for making a book series where people think anyone can go at any second. But tell me you beleive Dany is going to come with dragons and is going to kill everyone and story done. If that were the case we would've started the story focusing on Dany.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree.

[The Wedge]

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree.

Welcome to the board.

:cheers:

[Lord Commander Snow]

thanks wedge, I'll admit i'm fairly opinionated.. I try to back it up with some reasons at the minimum, but there is always room for error, if it's not in the books it's not set it stone yet, or frozen in ice, or in melisandre's flames.

[Lord Stormborn]

This has kinda wandered from its roots...

I was more wondering on peoples' thoughts on Yunkai, Astapor and Valyria.

I love the idea of Tyrion becoming Dany's hand. He knows the Game, knows the inner ties of Westeros, and could probably have some allies in southern Westeros. All great qualities for a foreign conquering force. I think the small people might be in favor of having a Targaryan back in charge too. Will the sparrows like a few dragons to fly behind?

[Lord Commander Snow]

Taht would be ridiculous if hte sparrows united under Dany, and if tyrion lent her hand pretty crazy.. personally I think she's going to end up taking over stannis' army, wehre stannis gets sacrificed to the flames. I think some people will jion Dany.. it's either that or fight her dragons... i don't think she'll have to do to much political posturing. I think the real issue of solving this knot, is solving the issues in mereen, adn then figuring out how and when and with what dany will come over to westeros with. And i'm unsure of this answer.. because dany is a game changer.

[Jon Targaryen]

The Meereenese knot is probably simply the critical mass of "suppliants" converging on Dany. Marwyn, Victarion, Quentyn, maybe Tyrion, maybe Euron, maybe the Golden Company, maybe others. Lot of balls to juggle there.

[Holmes]

The Meereenese knot is probably simply the critical mass of "suppliants" converging on Dany. Marwyn, Victarion, Quentyn, maybe Tyrion, maybe Euron, maybe the Golden Company, maybe others. Lot of balls to juggle there.

Not a problem for Dany. She's already proven herself quite adept at juggling balls.

[Lord Commander Snow]

Is that meant to have a double meaning holmes?

I can't remember when Martin wrote that he's having trouble onthe mereneese not in his blog "not a blog", because if that was failry recent, then we can assume that Dany is just wrapping up mereenese stuff in this book and hasn't come to westeros yet.

Anyway for those who just say kill dany, personally ya.. i'm not a huge fan of her.. and her dragons are going to make thing rediculous... I hope somehow they can use them verse the others.

I'll have to think of this before i'm sure how it will play it out.. I really should just re-read the books to get a grasp of what dany wants and where things will fit in. I don't see how she'll have any problem with the wall, and something tells me she's going to fall for jon snow if she meets him (so i hope he doesn't return it... marry anyone else jon) I see that being led up to in the books, they both dislike the lannisters, she's gong to deal with stannis anyway, that'll likely somehow get her to end up around Jon.

Anyway, I guess Martin will have to hammer it all out how he likes.

[GRoll]

Unless the dragons grow to adult size quickly (like in that awful movie Eragon), possible "knots" are that it will be many more years before Dany:

• 
  
• Can ride them
  
• Learns to control them (from eating her subjects)
  
• Can train them to war (or learn how to train them)
  
• Or she learns "to rule" (and I believe that was her reason for staying put in Mereen)
  
  

I haven't re-read the books in a couple of years (hint, hint), but since the dragons hatched not much more than a year would have passed -- march across the red wastes to Quarth, ship to Ghiscari, Astapor, Mereen.

Of course dealing with all the characters coming to find her is another knot. I don't see her being hijacked against her will, but she could be deceived into going to Westeros sooner than planned (although the plan seems pretty vague).

[MountainThatRides]

I think it's unlikely that the dragons will grow to "full size", but the question of how long until they're large enough to ride remains. We know Drogon is the largest and it's quite possible he will be big enough by the time Daenerys reaches Westeros. We really don't know enough about Martin's dragons to make any safe assumption about this. The people who know about dragons, in the books, and would be useful to Daenerys, are Marwyn and Tyrion; Marwyn is more or less made outcast by the Citadel for interests in sorcery and presumably he knows a great deal, while Tyrion has always been fascinated with dragons and has probably read most of the books about them laid down before and during the Targaryen reign.

The "Meereenese knot" is Martin referring to the Gordian knot, and its difficulty, but also to the fact that it takes place in Meereen where so many plot arcs converge with the intent of sending Daenerys off to Westeros at its culmination. This might be the climax of Dance, and sets up a major storyline for the rest of the series, so Martin is understandably under a lot of pressure to make it as best he can.

As far as Daenerys dying, I doubt it would serve any real purpose at this point. Too much of the build-up hinges on her returning to Westeros. I'm not saying that she'll survive the series or definitely sit the Iron Throne, but "ice and fire" may refer to the confrontation between the Others and the force that stands to defy them, armed with Valyrian steel, obsidian, dragons, etc.

At the same time, I disagree that killing off any major character would hurt Martin's sales. When we bought A Storm of Swords we didn't know about the Red Wedding, and though some of us might have felt strongly about what happened to the characters, it makes for great storytelling. The same goes for Eddard's death, Gregor's duel with Oberyn, Lord Tywin's murder, and many other plot twists. Martin likes cliffhangers and surprises and we all know he plays for keeps. While death is no stranger in Westeros (forgive the pun), and characters die all the time, their deaths usually serve a purpose -- especially the main characters. If Eddard had been allowed to take the black, and not decapitated, would Robb have risen in rebellion? The Red Wedding was necessary to make the eventual return of the Starks more powerful; Arya and Sansa are scattered, the sack of Winterfell enabled Bran to go beyond the Wall for his "training". Robb and Catelyn were unifying forces, just as Tywin was for House Lannister. Now both houses are in disarray; even if it looks like the Lannisters have won the war and are in control, we know that is very far from the truth.

Martin would never sacrifice his literary integrity to boost his sales. He has a very loyal readership and his popularity is on the upswing, and we're all in this for the long haul. He could kill every character off in Dance and I'd still buy the next book, because I love his storytelling and I love the world of Westeros. At this point, the only character I'd like to see survive is Tyrion, because he's the only one who I think has a real chance. Jon Snow is made for heroism, whether he's Eddard's bastard or the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. If he does die, it will drive the plot forward. Martin killed Eddard to show us that he is serious, and that this isn't your typical black and white fantasy, but it's not set in stone that every book has to see major POV characters die. It will probably happen more often than not, but only when it serves Martin's purpose in telling the tale.

Daenerys still has one major betrayal to face. To go west, she must go east. To reach the light, she must pass beneath the shadow. I consider Quaithe as her one counselor who has never been false, even if her counsel is cloaked in vagueness. One prophecy is much like the other, and they're subject to interpretation. It's clear that a major confrontation is being set up, but we won't know all the major players until Dance. The Meereenese knot's resolution will probably establish the dramatis personae. We know the motivations of Victarion and the Iron Fleet. We can guess at the roles that Marwyn, Tyrion and Quentyn will play. We don't know who the other heads of the dragon will be, we don't know what the Golden Company is planning or if they're even going to be involved, we don't know when Daenerys will reach Westeros or by what route. We certainly don't know whose heads will roll before the series is complete.

[Red Sun]

Not a problem for Dany. She's already proven herself quite adept at juggling balls.

It's not the character who does the juggling but the author. The author has to be aware of the movements, interests and motivations of all those characters and write them into a set of events that follow a good pace, make sense for those characters and engage the readers. Intertwining all those characters and the situation in Meereen is all but funny and easy.

[The SmilingKnight]

Daenerys still has one major betrayal to face. To go west, she must go east. To reach the light, she must pass beneath the shadow.

Fuck!

I never considered that part seriously since going East would go against the Return, prolong it too much ... but hey, Westeros is round so... If she would pass through the shadow she could get to Westeros from the wholy unexpected side.

Though, that might make her return take too long since Others are on the move and Winter came.

Martin would never sacrifice his literary integrity to boost his sales

Very true. He doesnt need to, at all. He is doing just fine.

[Werthead]

According to GRRM:

If we see Asshai it will only be in flashback (Mel's?) or as furthe legendary references. In addition, he has said that Qarth is the furthest east the story will go. I'm thinking the 'to go west you must go east' thing might be a reference to Daenerys' overall journey (going east to Qarth before turning back for Westeros) rather than what she must do now.

[The SmilingKnight]

Didnt know that. thanks. one crazy theory less to think off ;)

[MountainThatRides]

Didnt know that. thanks. one crazy theory less to think off ;)

Yeah, I didn't mean to apply that Daenerys was going to circumnavigate the globe and come ashore at Lannisport. It's just about the things she'll have to face before she returns to Westeros. At this point I'm assuming that the "Meereenese knot" and the result of that plot arc will set Daenerys moving westward.

[Edward the Great]

Dear George,

Here is a solution to the entire problem that I think 90% of the readers could live with: Have Dany die. Her Dragons will then be free to fly away and be Dragons. Then Tyrion can take command of the Unsullied (and possibly one of the Dragons) and embark towards Westeros, while Que-ball and Vic-y-boy do their own thing (like battle it out, or form a secret alliance against Euron, etc.).

I think hell just froze over. I agree with Blauer.

And what if the speculation is right about Tyrion being the bastard son of Aerys, and Selmy knows it? Tyrion with Barristan Selmy - Aegon the Conqueror come again!

This would be great storytelling but would squarely put the story on the 9 book path that I thought would be necessary from the beginning.

[Mezeh]

Not a problem for Dany. She's already proven herself quite adept at juggling balls.

So far yes but she obviously going to get a lot and of various sizes and shapes. The task is very far from easy. Add to this that she is trying to rule a city she deprived from major source of income and with great number of unfriendly population.