So what is this "Meereenese knot" Martin is referring to on his "not a blog"

[Satoris T Born]

Yeah, I didn't mean to apply that Daenerys was going to circumnavigate the globe and come ashore at Lannisport. It's just about the things she'll have to face before she returns to Westeros. At this point I'm assuming that the "Meereenese knot" and the result of that plot arc will set Daenerys moving westward.

I've heard that GRRM did have plans to send Dani to Asshai, and indeed travel off the EAstern coast of ASshai to land on the East coast of Westeros rather than travel back West to get there. After all...there's a pretty good chance that it's a planet. And a sphere. We have to think of our real middle ages and how no one really traveled West to the Americas yet. In the case of Westeros, there may not be an "America-esque continent" (or it may be in a position that doesn't play into the story and Dani passes it by) so she can sail East, thump the Iron born, and march right into Westeros with Dorne and Targ loyalists covering the other side.

Although, the five year gap was probably going to have Dani either in Asshai or on her way, or whatever and had to be scrapped. Or retooled. Dani even acknowledges at one point she is supposed to go to Asshai. The knot is most likely the smooth exit (plot-wise) from Mereen, the skipping(?) of Asshai, and the interweaving of POVs in a game-changing scene, all the while having to sync up with Feast For Crows timelines. Ugh. It makes me overwelmed. It will be cool to read, tho. I bet it really is a bitch to write, let alone write well and gripping.

[chuck norris 42]

I have the feeling George likes the term and will have a tendency to call everything that is complicated and problematic a Meereenese knot.

I am hardly an authority on the subject and I am distracted by the fact that

Meereenese has the letter e six times.

[The Meereense Knot]

He's a cousin of mine. Bit of a putz really. Always getting in the way.

[SecretSquirrel]

I thought it just had to do with somehow gaining control of the Lannister or Vale area through Tyrion or Littlefinger, and then getting or building all the boats in order to carry off the citizenry so they are not reenslaved. I think the knot has to do with Dany being able to move all her citizens logistically to Westros.

I feel it is more realistic for Tyrion to go in with her than Littlefinger. It sems like Littlefinger is aiming for a topslot, but he might eventually rule through or under Dany by the end of the series.

[Romulus]

Obviously, I'm pretty new here, but....

I don't know if this assumption magically appeared and was completely agreed on by everyone unanimously, I just don't understand why we all assume that Jon is going to rule anything. He is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He took an oath, and he is obviously very serious about that oath. He left the girl he loved (granted, he also left an army full of people that didn't love him, as well as certain death) to warn the North about the Wildlings, and abandoned her at the same time. I just think that it is passing strange for all of us to assume that after the Others are defeated Jon will somehow be acquitted of his responsibility to the Night's Watch. You're in for life! And what if he dies in the final showdown with the Others? What will he rule then? And if he does live, the Others weren't the only thing that the Wall was stopping anyway, the Night's Watch is also there to hinder the Wildling population, and unless all of those people are killed off by the Others, there's no saying that even some far fetched planned (and unlikely, what with Melisandre and Stannis prowling around the wall looking for King's blood) treaty between the Wildlings and Westeros will even happen. Unless the wall coming down is a part of that treaty.......

Point is, there are a lot of things that have to happen for Jon to do anything besides Lord it over the Night's Watch. He is extremely loyal to them, considering he didn't leave when his father died or his brother went to war.

So, forgive me if I am woefully ignorant of some thread that was like "Duh! Jon is so not going to be Lord Commander for long!" He just seems awfully loyal, and I think that the only thing that would make him leave the Watch is if it were disbanded. Not to say it won't be, but as much as we like him and know how great he is,that would be a lot on GRRM's part to make that happen, and, as has been mentioned, he likes the twists.

[Guest Друг-&#1]

So, forgive me if I am woefully ignorant of some thread that was like "Duh! Jon is so not going to be Lord Commander for long!"

I don't recall any such thread, and even if there was one it would still be no more than someone's opinion. I agree with you; Jon swore a vow that his watch "will not end until my death" which is pretty hard to argue doesn't mean exactly what it says. Some claim that he somehow gets off the hook if the Wall falls, which is ludicrous...the NW vows become more important than ever if Westeros is in that much trouble.

Welcome to the board!

[Errant Bard]

He took an oath, and he is obviously very serious about that oath. He left the girl he loved (granted, he also left an army full of people that didn't love him, as well as certain death) to warn the North about the Wildlings, and abandoned her at the same time.

I agree with you on the whole, but it's worth noting that he only takes his vows seriously because doing nothing out of his own initiative allows him to keep his vows. He didn't leave the Wall but only because his comrades dragged him back. He didn't leave the wildlings because he had a will and a plan, but he did because when he decided to suicide by not doing anything (with that old man), Summer saved his ass and he had already antagonized them to death. He didn't refuse Winterfell because he had sworn otherwise, but he did because Sam managed to land him another job unbeknownst to him.

So it's not out of the realm of possibilities that the author could land him yet another job without his involvement, and he would go with the flow, maybe angsting a little, as always. That's GRRM's (and about all scriptwriters) favourite trick when it comes to having hero decide something: so they don't get the responsibility or the blame for the choice's implication, it just happens to them (that's typically why a villain the hero should kill but does not kill will about always attack the hero when he turns his back, earning himself a swift death in self-defence. Or why when there is something distasteful to be done, it's always some morally ambiguous comrade who will do it instead of reluctant hero, reluctant hero will still reap benefits of the thing tho). He does it for Dany too.

Welcome to the board.

[Edward the Great]

I don't recall any such thread, and even if there was one it would still be no more than someone's opinion. I agree with you; Jon swore a vow that his watch "will not end until my death" which is pretty hard to argue doesn't mean exactly what it says.

This story is all about pushing people's oaths to their breaking point. Jon will leave the Night's Watch, or his presence will destroy it, or perhaps both.

We already have Sam's prophetic dream.

[Padraig]

He didn't refuse Winterfell because he had sworn otherwise, but he did because Sam managed to land him another job unbeknownst to him.

I thought he had already decided to reject Stannis's offer by the time that he became LCotNW?

[Edward the Great]

I thought he had already decided to reject Stannis's offer by the time that he became LCotNW?

You are correct.

[Romulus]

I agree with you on the whole, but it's worth noting that he only takes his vows seriously because doing nothing out of his own initiative allows him to keep his vows. He didn't leave the Wall but only because his comrades dragged him back. He didn't leave the wildlings because he had a will and a plan, but he did because when he decided to suicide by not doing anything (with that old man), Summer saved his ass and he had already antagonized them to death. He didn't refuse Winterfell because he had sworn otherwise, but he did because Sam managed to land him another job unbeknownst to him.

So it's not out of the realm of possibilities that the author could land him yet another job without his involvement, and he would go with the flow, maybe angsting a little, as always.

I feel like Jon was finally realizing what was best for him, like was mentioned he's decided to decline Stannis' offer for Winterfell and was planning on staying, even if some asshole did take command. So that's him finally growing up and learning where he belongs, and now he's LC and likes it.

We already have Sam's prophetic dream.

What is this!? I just looked for 30 minutes in AFFC and ASOS and couldn't find this thing. Page number, please? But despite this, it's not like all prophesies come true.

[Edward the Great]

I feel like Jon was finally realizing what was best for him, like was mentioned he's decided to decline Stannis' offer for Winterfell and was planning on staying, even if some asshole did take command. So that's him finally growing up and learning where he belongs, and now he's LC and likes it.

Jon is most definitely not enjoying his position. It's not about what he wants, it's about who he is.

What is this!? I just looked for 30 minutes in AFFC and ASOS and couldn't find this thing. Page number, please? But despite this, it's not like all prophesies come true.

I've only read the books twice and I remember it very distinctly. Obviously, it's a Sam chapter. I'll look up the page number some time if I feel like it. We have yet to see a prohetic dream that hasn't come true, but I do hope that not all of them do. Sam's dream includes himself, Jon, and at least one more of their circle of friends. Dolorous Ed?

[me399]

Dear George,

Here is a solution to the entire problem that I think 90% of the readers could live with: Have Dany die. Her Dragons will then be free to fly away and be Dragons. Then Tyrion can take command of the Unsullied (and possibly one of the Dragons) and embark towards Westeros, while Que-ball and Vic-y-boy do their own thing (like battle it out, or form a secret alliance against Euron, etc.).

I know I would like that solution!

If you don't want her to die, you could just have her get kidnapped and sold into slavery or something (as long as it retires her POV).

I would be freaking pissed if he did this. Dany is my favorite character in the book :)

Series.... I meant favorite character in the series :)

[me399]

Obviously true.

Uh, probably false. 90%?

I vote on your side

[Errant Bard]

I thought he had already decided to reject Stannis's offer by the time that he became LCotNW?

I feel like Jon was finally realizing what was best for him, like was mentioned he's decided to decline Stannis' offer for Winterfell and was planning on staying, even if some asshole did take command. So that's him finally growing up and learning where he belongs, and now he's LC and likes it.

You are missing the point: he didn't get to choose, in the end. Supposing he was demoted from his position of LC and promoted to some other position without him having a voice in it, what would he do? The trend is towards this happening, and towards him not really fighting for what's not the fait accompli. I'll point that he also decided to leave the Wall at first, too, but really didn't, so these "decisions" of him feel more cosmetic than really meaningful. Things happen to him, he isn't the one who makes them happen.

What is this!? I just looked for 30 minutes in AFFC and ASOS and couldn't find this thing. Page number, please? But despite this, it's not like all prophesies come true.

There's no such dream.

[SFDanny]

I agree with you on the whole, but it's worth noting that he only takes his vows seriously because doing nothing out of his own initiative allows him to keep his vows. He didn't leave the Wall but only because his comrades dragged him back. He didn't leave the wildlings because he had a will and a plan, but he did because when he decided to suicide by not doing anything (with that old man), Summer saved his ass and he had already antagonized them to death. He didn't refuse Winterfell because he had sworn otherwise, but he did because Sam managed to land him another job unbeknownst to him.

I can't agree with you here, EB. Jon certainly is a reluctant hero, but he makes choices in hard places. He decides not to kill the old man knowing it could cost him his life, and likely lose him Ygritte. He makes a choice not to accept Stannis's offer, which Stannis would still gladly give him after his selection as Lord Commander. He decides to stay with the Night's Watch and go with Mormont beyond the Wall instead of giving lip service to it and trying to escape again. Part of Jon's charm as a character is that he really doesn't want the glory, or to put it more precisely, he doesn't want to pay the price that the way open to him having glory would force him to pay. His sense of honor and duty to his vows stop him. It's the stuff that kinda defines real heroes from glory seeking asses. Is he lucky and have help from friends? Undoubtedly, but he isn't meant to be Superman.

[Errant Bard]

He decides not to kill the old man knowing it could cost him his life, and likely lose him Ygritte.

No, he decides to do nothing: not kill, but not outright oppose the others. Then a choice is forced on him: I don't consider it much of a choice : circumstances dropped on him just force him one way. It's just not the same as him wilfully running off on Ygritte

He makes a choice not to accept Stannis's offer, which Stannis would still gladly give him after his selection as Lord Commander. He decides to stay with the Night's Watch and go with Mormont beyond the Wall instead of giving lip service to it and trying to escape again.

And it's certainly not the same as him wanting the LC or Lord Stark seat and actively tryin to get it.

See, I'm not saying he's not making some minor cosmetic choices, I'm saying that the trend is it not mattering. It's dumped on him, he doesn't try, everything comes on a platter outside of his own will, and "hard places" are really like choosing between moral plus useful and immoral plus useless.

So, if Sam gets him a grand promotion again and the new role doesn't involve being a powerless puppet sacrificing his gods, yeah, he'd go with it. It's the trend: everything he has, he never tried to get it, he just had to think two seconds and realize that gee, of what's offered to him he likes diamonds better than charcoal.

[Padraig]

You are missing the point: he didn't get to choose, in the end.

It seems to me that you are been a little bit harsh on poor Jon. :) He clearly did choose to stay in the NW. But at the same time, you are right that he didn't choose to be its leader. So its fair enough to point out the latter but you can't forget the former either.

Fact is, if he had not choosen to stay in the NW then he would never have attended the vote in the first place.

Supposing he was demoted from his position of LC and promoted to some other position without him having a voice in it, what would he do? The trend is towards this happening, and towards him not really fighting for what's not the fait accompli.

Promoted to a position inside or outside the NW? Clearly Stannis had already offered him a chance of a "promotion" since Lord of Winterfell would surely trump LCotNW? Although, in your last post you sort of derided the position in Winterfell. I think the position is stronger than you suggest but you can't ignore that he was strongly attracted to it.

The trend is more about how he was a junior member of the NW. He was forced to follow orders most of the way through the series so far (like any other junior member of an army). You can't extrapolate that trend now that he is the senior member of the NW.

It's just not the same as him wilfully running off on Ygritte

This is a point, except one should acknowledge that there never seemed to be an opportunity to flee before (i.e. the lack of a horse).

[Lummel]

I think Errand Bard's reading is a necessary corrective to seeing Jon as a traditional dynamic hero. Like the rest of the Stark children he is more reacting than acting.

Yes Jon is tempted by the Winterfell offer but he is elected Lord Commander before he can make a decision either way. When does Jon consciously make a decision? He decides to join the watch, to try to escape from the watch, to accept Halfhand's offer and he decides not to kill the old man.

On the whole this seems fair enough, he's a youngster still learning his way in the world, but we will have to see if he will start consciously making decisions that drive the plot forward as opposed to floating with the tide.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

I don't have energy for long post, but I totally agree with EB. Maybe that's why he falls so flat for me, neither here nor there kind of character. He doesn't have some strong desire that he acts on. (He had strong desire not to be bastard and to know his mom's name, but he can't do anything here).

I want Jon to make some harsh and necessary decisions, to be *something*. But then he would be less of blank, slightly whiny canvas for people to relate to.

If he didn't try to run away from The Wall some people would find him too hard-hearted. But that would be something. Huge devotion to his duty. If he actually did betray his vows for his family, it would again paint him in somewhat negative light. But that would be something.

I want Jon to decide to kill Halfhand and join Wildings for the good of the Watch. I want him to have to kill oldman for same reason, to have to make harsh choice as a "payment" for being able to save his friends. Then I want him to have to kill some wildly sympathetic wilding in order to make escape. If he's going to be gallivanting with Ygritte, let it be his own fault and not her basically molesting him into agreement. Arya had to kill soldier to escape. Why is Jon allowed to escape without getting his hands dirty?

OTOH, if he decides not to kill oldman, let it cost him something. Not have a Bran-filled wolf jump out of nowhere as beast-ex-machina.

BTW, I am not saying that EB meant what I am saying here.