So what is this "Meereenese knot" Martin is referring to on his "not a blog"

[Mad Monkey]

Or, to have even more fun, whhat if Stannis' wife dies (one way or the other ;) ) and he marries Melisandre, would that not make her a queen as well?

That doesn't sound right. Stannis isn't really a king. But if you share in his delusions, then, yes, she would be considered a queen. Granted, it would only be by the three or four people who still honestly respect Stannis's claim, which is somewhat underwhelming.

Just food for thought. I have a few suspicions about the prophesy meaning Dany because that's so obvious. :) Martin may surprise us here.

Watch it turn out to actually be someone completely random.

The Great Other: Ha ha! Now we will destroy Westeros!

Jon Snow: Nuh-uh!

The Great Other: Uh-huh! And the only person who could possibly stop us is Will, the dude who got killed in the prologue of the first book.

Jon Snow: ... really?!

The Great Other: Yes, really. Now suck on MY ARMY OF ZOMBIES!!!

[Miriel]

I would like to point out, that the prophecy regarding Cersei seems kind of misunderstood IMHO. It's a three part prophecy, and that quite a bit of it has come true is strong evidence that all of this prophecy will come true.

I appreciate your analysis. I don't see Dany offing Mycella or Tommen under any circumstances. It is just completely out of keeping with her character as I see it. I can see her invasion leading to events that bring about their deaths, but not her ordering/condoning, etc their deaths.

Having said that, although I pretty much agree w/ your thoughts re: Cersei's prophecy as laid out, I don't think you can say that just b/c quite a bit of the prophecy has come true that all of it will come true.

I am thinking of the Dany "stallion that mounts the world" prophecy here. From my understanding of that, she was carrying Rhaego, who was going to grow up to be the warrior Dany saw in her vision (copper skin/silver hair/burning city). But Mirri Maaz Durr threw a spanner into the works--prophecy derailed. But right up until that moment-- the "stallion that mounts the world" prophecy was working out fine. Had the crones been asked the question- "b/c most of it has come true can we assume all of it will?" -immediately before MMD entered the picture, they probably would have said oh yes, the SWMTW is a shoe in!

[Jackals Justice]

From the sound of it ADWD will take place over a notably longer period than AFFC, at least by several months. That to me suggestst that plenty of big events can happen later in ADWD (maybe even from halfway through the book onwards) without contradicting events in AFFC. The sheer amount of time it takes for news to travel from Meereen to Westeros also factors in: slightly more solid and reliable information about events in Qarth in ACoK is only just reaching King's Landing in AFFC, for example.

I didn't know ADWD ran longer. I also have to consider that Varys is no longer in kings landing, and that he controlled a lot of the information.

First of all, Jaime gives us a very good reason on his part for not killing Cersei,- Tommen will hate him.

But her childrens deaths come before her own. What if Jaime blamed her for Tommens death? And had come to care for him? I personally think Jaime is the one to kill her, there's something poetic about him strangling her with a golden hand. And of course the complete 180 of how he felt about her from AGOT/ASOS and before. Going from killing for her, to killing her. Tyrion killing her once again, even Cersei suspects him of being her killer. I never trust in anything Cersei believes.

Although, Martin is rarely so literal, I can't forget about little Arya either, whispering Cerseis name every night.

I appreciate your analysis. I don't see Dany offing Mycella or Tommen under any circumstances. It is just completely out of keeping with her character as I see it. I can see her invasion leading to events that bring about their deaths, but not her ordering/condoning, etc their deaths.

Completely agree.

Okay, found it. Pretty much that quote. In his next chapter, he's calling Sansa the most beautiful girl in the room. Anyways, I don't think it's a beauty pageant. Pretty, beautiful, whatever. They're good looking young women. ;)

It has to be taken into account that Sansa is only 13.. or actually 12 at this point? What level of beauty she will eventually grow into is still unknown. It could be at 12 she was a very beautiful girl, but at 18 a stunning beauty.

[Gabriele]

That doesn't sound right. Stannis isn't really a king. But if you share in his delusions, then, yes, she would be considered a queen. Granted, it would only be by the three or four people who still honestly respect Stannis's claim, which is somewhat underwhelming.

Heh, she surely would be the most prophetic queen. :D

But I agree, Meli isn't a very likely candidate. Though knowing how prophecies didn't work out in Ancient Greece, I won't be surprised if there's going to be a surprise resolution for some of the prophecies in ASOIAF. We've come a far step from the 80ies Fantasies a la Eddings where the prophecies were simple and always worked. ;)

[Alexia]

Or, to have even more fun, whhat if Stannis' wife dies (one way or the other ;) ) and he marries Melisandre, would that not make her a queen as well?

Serious question for the men on this thread - do any of you think red eyes are actually beautiful? It sounds incredibly creepy and horrible looking; I simply cannot envision Mel as beautiful because of those eyes. *shudders*

Jeyne is extremely unlikely; she's a plot device whose time is up. She's nothing without Robb and she's now headed for Casterly Rock with a snowflake's chance in hell of escape.

I have a few suspicions about the prophesy meaning Dany because that's so obvious.

Which is why I think it'll be Sansa. Cersei would never imagine the queen to be Sansa - her child hostage who she tormented and considered stupid. Poetic justice.

I appreciate your analysis. I don't see Dany offing Mycella or Tommen under any circumstances. It is just completely out of keeping with her character as I see it. I can see her invasion leading to events that bring about their deaths, but not her ordering/condoning, etc their deaths.

I think I've debated you on this, but every character is growing darker. I think Tommen will die as a result of Cersei's scheming but I also think Dany will order Myrcella's execution. Other-in-law made the good suggestion in another thread that perhaps Tommen and Myrcella would be murdered, a la Rhaenys and Aegon, as a way of currying favor with Dany. That's another possibility I see.

For the record, I think crucifying almost two hundred people for their social status is much more of an atrocity that having two children who are political enemies, and dangerous to you, beheaded.

Having said that, although I pretty much agree w/ your thoughts re: Cersei's prophecy as laid out, I don't think you can say that just b/c quite a bit of the prophecy has come true that all of it will come true.

This one, I entirely agree with you on. ;)

Ran, when it comes to Margaery I scanned my book for Ned's thoughts and the other Tyrion thoughts and they both used the term lovely. I'm too lazy to start flipping through AFFC to see what Jaime thought of Margaery, especially since we agree on the important part, that Margaery isn't the queen from the prophecy.

[Alexia]

This works to disprove the Margaery thesis because Margaery has already come to King's Landing and hasn't taken everything from Cersei, indeed she hasn't taken anything from her.

Not that I'm disagreeing with your overall point but...

Margaery is responsible for Joff's murder. She took him from Cersei in the most literal way possible and I could do a pretty good argument that she's taking Tommen away from Cersei and turning him against her.

[Gabriele]

I think I've debated you on this, but every character is growing darker. I think Tommen will die as a result of Cersei's scheming but I also think Dany will order Myrcella's execution. Other-in-law made the good suggestion in another thread that perhaps Tommen and Myrcella would be murdered, a la Rhaenys and Aegon, as a way of currying favor with Dany. That's another possibility I see.

For the record, I think crucifying almost two hundred people for their social status is much more of an atrocity that having two children who are political enemies, and dangerous to you, beheaded.

Dany has power, and power corrupts - sooner or later. It's possible that her rule will turn out to be worse for Westeros than the last Targaryen king they had. Not to mention the atrocities always connected with an invasion, even by a well meaning invader. If such an animal exists. ;)

Heh, Myrcella could well end up as accidental dragon dinner. :)

[Edward the Great]

I don't see Dany going on a protracted compaign to conquer the Seven Kingdoms. That would take another 12 books. Either she abandons the Game of Thrones and goes to the Wall, is taken as a hostage by the Ironborn, or the Tyrells hand the Seven Kingdoms to her on a silver platter after Tommen dies. The Tyrells still require allies and legitimacy. Tommen gives them that.

[Gaston de Foix]

I appreciate your analysis. I don't see Dany offing Mycella or Tommen under any circumstances. It is just completely out of keeping with her character as I see it. I can see her invasion leading to events that bring about their deaths, but not her ordering/condoning, etc their deaths.

Having said that, although I pretty much agree w/ your thoughts re: Cersei's prophecy as laid out, I don't think you can say that just b/c quite a bit of the prophecy has come true that all of it will come true.

I am thinking of the Dany "stallion that mounts the world" prophecy here. From my understanding of that, she was carrying Rhaego, who was going to grow up to be the warrior Dany saw in her vision (copper skin/silver hair/burning city). But Mirri Maaz Durr threw a spanner into the works--prophecy derailed. But right up until that moment-- the "stallion that mounts the world" prophecy was working out fine. Had the crones been asked the question- "b/c most of it has come true can we assume all of it will?" -immediately before MMD entered the picture, they probably would have said oh yes, the SWMTW is a shoe in!

You know, I think we see a number of prophecies throughout the book, and this is the one prophecy, that actually doesn't come true and that people have in mind as noticeably not coming true. All the others, and I'm thinking of the Ghost of High Heart, Thoros of Myr, Melisandre etc, all come true even if not quite in the way assumed. I think the explanation here is that this was a possible morrow, completely derailed by the introduction of Mirri Maaz Duur into the birthing tent, and the turn in Dany's character arc because of the injury and death of Drogo. Now in a sense this explanation doesn't quite fit with the later books, where Dany as the Prince (or Princess) that was Promised seems to have been anticipated by Rhaegar and Maester Aemon. But this is still the explanation that makes the most sense. Dany's son would have been the Stallion that Mounts the world, but the prophecy of the Crones mistook a potential morrow with a morrow that would come.

The following point contains a spoiler:

As Melisandre says in Jon I of ADWD

" we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come from this may come."

[Guest Друг-&#1]

Serious question for the men on this thread - do any of you think red eyes are actually beautiful? It sounds incredibly creepy and horrible looking; I simply cannot envision Mel as beautiful because of those eyes. *shudders*

Yeah, red eyes are creepy.

It didn't meet much agreement, but the suggestion has been made that possibly Mel, with her pale skin and red eyes is undead, like Lady Stoneheart. In favour: our only other point of reference for Ashai'i appearance is that they are "dark and solemn". Maybe that means skin or maybe it means just hair. Against: Beric Dondarrion's remaining eye was never described as red or glowing.

It does fit with the overall trend of Stannis becoming a new Nightking, but from the fire side instead of the ice side this time. Mel would be his corpse-queen; they've already made terrible inhuman children together, and she's been taking his soul when she takes his seed, too ('his fires burn too low').

On the stallion who mounts the world, it's possible that the crones saw it right but didn't understand it. Dany is the mother of dragons; maybe they're the SwMtW and they confused the coming dragons (her other children) with the babe in her belly. or it's Dany herself; her vision in the House of the Undying included a vignette of those same crones making their submission to her. One of the features of the SwMtW is that he'll unite the entire Dothraki nation into a single Khalasar, and the crones are technically the actual rulers of the Dothraki nation.

Grinachu,

to do spoilers with the new format just click the little hazmat icon directly below the bold icon and write in the panel that opens,

like so

. Or type (spoiler) and then (/spoiler), only substitute [ ] for ( ).

[Mad Monkey]

Serious question for the men on this thread - do any of you think red eyes are actually beautiful? It sounds incredibly creepy and horrible looking; I simply cannot envision Mel as beautiful because of those eyes. *shudders*

It can't be that much more repulsive than purple eyes or silver-colored hair. It's freakish by our standards, but for some reason it gets Westerosi people hot. And that's whose standards really matter, as far as any references to "beauty".

[Datepalm]

It can't be that much more repulsive than purple eyes or silver-colored hair. It's freakish by our standards, but for some reason it gets Westerosi people hot. And that's whose standards really matter, as far as any references to "beauty".

Anime characters come with far more improbably coloring all the time and it dosen't seem to bother anyone. That said, a friend from highschool has light brown eyes and very red eyelashes, and under proper lighting her eyes would look quite red, and it had its disconcerting moments.

I'm with Alexia that Margaery is suposed to be really beautiful - it fits in with her place in the story to be really flawless in all ways, and by ASOIAF standards being merely "quite pretty" is like having a third foot. (not to mention she's almost 17! Better have something going for her to make up for that!) Also, Renly wants to use her mere image to seduce Robert, so thats something, even though she had no similarity to Lyanna.

[A wilding]

... Renly wants to use her mere image to seduce Robert, so thats something, even though she had no similarity to Lyanna.

Historically it was not until Oliver Cromwell that portrait painters put in "warts and all". Before then they flattered their subjects. I think it highly likely that that miniature of Margaery was somewhat idealised. Certainly if I was painting a picture of the Lord of Highgarden's only and favourite daughter, I would do my best to make it a flattering one.

(Famous historical example: Henry VIII of England and his 4th wife Anne of Cleves. Henry was persuaded to marry her on the strength of a portrait and was very disappointed when he actually met her - though to be fair it might partly have been down to her being something of a dull provincial by the standards of Henry's court.)

Though I am not sure the the miniature was intended to impress Robert particularly. According to Varys Renly's plan was to bring Margaery to court and have Robert bed and then wed her.

FWIW I also tend to the opinion that Margaery is only pretty. She is after all the Queen Bee of Highgarden, the cultural centre of Westeros civilisation. She is obviously intelligent, is still in her teens, has almost cetainly been superbly trained to make the best of herself, and doubtless has an enormous wardrobe budget. The combination of these factors is enough to explain her being noticed.

[Alexia]

It can't be that much more repulsive than purple eyes or silver-colored hair. It's freakish by our standards, but for some reason it gets Westerosi people hot. And that's whose standards really matter, as far as any references to "beauty".

Violet eyes are rare but happen in real life. Silver hair is that white-blond color that occurs naturally in 4 year old girls; any older and its usually straight from a bottle.

And it doesn't seem to get all Westerosi people hot; Davos seems pretty creeped out by Mel. Other-in-law, I don't really agree but I am very amused by the idea that Mel might be undead. Can't rule that one out.

[Errant Bard]

Violet eyes are rare but happen in real life. Silver hair is that white-blond color that occurs naturally in 4 year old girls;

Red eyes happen in real life, and if silver is blond, Mel's red (of the eyes) is just a particularly intense brown, perceived that way because of reflection of all the red she sports and the flames she surrounds herself with. Meh.

[Alexia]

Red eyes happen in real life, and if silver is blond, Mel's red is just a particularly intense brown, perceived that way because of reflection of all the red she sports and the flames she surrounds herself with. Meh.

Red hair is natural, Bard. :P

Anyway, I was bored and looked up red eye color. Apparently it usually appears in albinos and is not an actual eye color but a lack of pigmentation that allows the blood vessels to show up. Violet and black eyes are due to a genetic mutation.

Picture here

[Errant Bard]

Red hair is natural, Bard. :P

Nah, not the hue you're thinking about when you say "red eyes" :P

Eyes the same colour as hair that are qualified as "red"? That's brown eyes, no mistake.

Anyway, not freaky, though the overall attractiveness then depends on colour coordination, personality, and body/face structure... And when, how, in what situation, and at what distance you look into the eyes.

Apparently it usually appears in albinos and is not an actual eye color but a lack of pigmentation

Yeah. Still an eye colour, though, I'm afraid. It's not how the colour is produced that's important, it is what colour your eyes appear. After all, we're not arguing if Mel's eyes are attractive or not depending on if she's an albino, has actual (red) lenses formed by two drops of magically shaped blood from her enemies, has transluscent eyes that show you the flames colour in R'hllor's realm or has simply a weird genetic makeup producing red pigments.

[Mad Monkey]

And it doesn't seem to get all Westerosi people hot; Davos seems pretty creeped out by Mel. Other-in-law, I don't really agree but I am very amused by the idea that Mel might be undead. Can't rule that one out.

Sorry, I meant the Targaryens. Even Cersei feels something for that Aurane Waters person because he sort of has some Targaryen features.

Part of the reason that Davos is creeped out by Mel might also be her supernatural powers, her different religious beliefs, and the crude pick-up line that she used on him while he was in jail. That wouldn't have changed even if Melisandre had had lovely Aryan-blue eyes.

[Miriel]

I think I've debated you on this, but every character is growing darker. I think Tommen will die as a result of Cersei's scheming but I also think Dany will order Myrcella's execution. Other-in-law made the good suggestion in another thread that perhaps Tommen and Myrcella would be murdered, a la Rhaenys and Aegon, as a way of currying favor with Dany. That's another possibility I see.

For the record, I think crucifying almost two hundred people for their social status is much more of an atrocity that having two children who are political enemies, and dangerous to you, beheaded.

I'll just add that Dany crucified them not for their social status, but b/c they supported/embodied a regime that had crucified two hundred children as well as innumerable other atrocities. Dany sees herself as a protector of the weak and defenseless, children comprising a big part of that group. Moral equivlaencies aside (all atrocities are nasty stuff when it comes right down to it), from my understanding of Dany's character, I just don't see her killing Myrcella and Tommen. In fact, Martin had to make the Slaver's Bay culture supremely nasty and atrocity committing on a routine basis just so the reader would relate to and feel good about Dany unleashing holy hell on them. Similarly, Joff had to be such an unpleasant character so that when he was murdered we all just kind of breathed a sigh of relief and moved on, no sympathy at all.

Regardless of how it comes about (killed to curry favor w/ Dany, as a result of the invasion, etc), after the beets and kittens and cyvasse games, Myrcella and Tommen are now fully fleshed out and quite sympathetic characters, and I have a hard time believing Martin will be able to kill them off. It would just be to much I think for the reader to handle. Maybe that is just wishful thinking on my part though.

[Mad Monkey]

Dany sees herself as a protector of the weak and defenseless, children comprising a big part of that group. Moral equivlaencies aside (all atrocities are nasty stuff when it comes right down to it), from my understanding of Dany's character, I just don't see her killing Myrcella and Tommen.

I agree that it might be a hard choice. We'll see how Dany's character has developed if and when she faces the choice (she really might not have to kill them; there are lot of hostile powers surrounding them right now).

Regardless of how it comes about (killed to curry favor w/ Dany, as a result of the invasion, etc), after the beets and kittens and cyvasse games, Myrcella and Tommen are now fully fleshed out and quite sympathetic characters, and I have a hard time believing Martin will be able to kill them off.

That's a fair point. He usually only kills off boring minor characters like Eddard, Catelyn, Robb, Lord Tywin, etc.