Your favorite knight of the Kingsguard?

[Indigo Cloak]

My favourite as a character: Jaime followed by the Hound. Both have become rather interesting, both have good one-liners and are self-loathing but in a well-crafted way, as opposed to early Jon's emo-self-pity.

My favourite as a person: Arys Oakheart, because he seems a good dutiful person but not too robotic or too much of a goody-goody like Swann. He also had sex with Arianne and had amusing inner conflict in his PoV.

The best one: This is hard. Most of them sucked at their jobs: several have seen 2 kings die under their care. Jaime 3, having murdered one (though I don't mind that, but it does disqualify him from being a good Kingsguard). All have lost 1 king (I think). Loras may have plotted to kill his king, and is in love with a dead traitor king. Ser Barristan failed Aerys and switched sides to his usurper and was basically a hypocrite. Meryn is indifferent to his role and whether his king lives or dies. Blount gave up a royal prince and is a fat coward. Jaime has committed a ludicrous number of well-documented treacheries, extending to his current search for Sansa. The Hound is a deserter. I'd have to say Swann, because he has the least failures in terms of king-guarding and honour so far.

[Markus]

Jon Targaryen,

Jaime said that because Moore gave away nothing with his face. Do you think Moore was a better fighter than Barristan, who would have been in the KG when Jaime made his comment to Tyrion? Still, Barristan being better than Moore does not mean Oakheart was. I did not fully take Moore's skill into account.

Moore not giving away his intentions with his face contributes to him being dangerous in different contexts, true, but in particular in a fight about which Jaime would primarily have been concerned. It would slow down the reaction of his opponents because they would have to wait for Moore's movements to start before they could react to them. This would be a significant advantage, perhaps comparable to being unusually quick.

As to Selmy vs. Moore, when we take Jaime's assessment to heart, then yes, Moore might have been a slightly better fighter than Selmy, aged ca. 60 years. Moore mightn't have been in the class of fighters like Jaime or Sandor but he could well have been just a step below when he "made battle as graceful as a dance" as Tyrion notes.

30-40 years ago Selmy would have been the best fighter or at least been among the very best fighters, the Jaimes and Sandors, in Westeros. But Selmy is beyond 60 years old. I realize GRRM is pushing the boundaries of the possible sometimes but people at Selmy's age simply aren't as fast, strong or untiring as they were in their physical prime. They don't think as fast either.

Normally Selmy would probably be a tier three fighter or worse at his age. Selmy is unusual because he has apparently managed to retain much of his former speed, strength and stamina through constant training and good genes. But even with training and good genes he wouldn't have been able to stop his physical and mental deterioration but only slow it down as much as possible.

So Selmy's fighting ability has probably deteriorated significantly but not as much as would be expected. Which means that Selmy probably isn't on the same level as top fighters like Jaime (one-handed) or Sandor anymore but that he can still compete about evenly with many of the fighters on the tier below the top tier. Moore was probably on that tier. With Selmy and Moore presumably on the same tier, I can also see that Moore might win slightly more than half the fights against Selmy, which could justify Jaime's remark that Moore is the most dangerous KG except himself.

That's partly because this time I was referring to the chivalric ideal when I said "better." Oakheart fell in love with Arianne and slept with her, true, but he balked at hitting Sansa unlike Moore. Although Oakheart also betrayed his king while Moore probably obeyed Cersei or Joffrey when he tried to kill Tyrion. Eh, Oakheart just feels more like the "true knight" from Sansa's stories to me.

Oakheart surely seemed like a nicer guy than Moore. Though as far as their respective devotion to duty was concerned Moore seems to have been the truer knight. Moore allegedly had nothing else on his mind after all. His failings were in other aspects of the chivalric ideal.

[Jaak]

As to Selmy vs. Moore, when we take Jaime's assessment to heart, then yes, Moore might have been a slightly better fighter than Selmy, aged ca. 60 years. Moore mightn't have been in the class of fighters like Jaime or Sandor but he could well have been just a step below when he "made battle as graceful as a dance" as Tyrion notes.

30-40 years ago Selmy would have been the best fighter or at least been among the very best fighters, the Jaimes and Sandors, in Westeros. But Selmy is beyond 60 years old. I realize GRRM is pushing the boundaries of the possible sometimes but people at Selmy's age simply aren't as fast, strong or untiring as they were in their physical prime. They don't think as fast either.

Normally Selmy would probably be a tier three fighter or worse at his age. Selmy is unusual because he has apparently managed to retain much of his former speed, strength and stamina through constant training and good genes. But even with training and good genes he wouldn't have been able to stop his physical and mental deterioration but only slow it down as much as possible.

So Selmy's fighting ability has probably deteriorated significantly but not as much as would be expected. Which means that Selmy probably isn't on the same level as top fighters like Jaime (one-handed) or Sandor anymore but that he can still compete about evenly with many of the fighters on the tier below the top tier. Moore was probably on that tier. With Selmy and Moore presumably on the same tier, I can also see that Moore might win slightly more than half the fights against Selmy, which could justify Jaime's remark that Moore is the most dangerous KG except himself.

Selmy claimed, in the face of Moore and all the other four (Oakhear, Trant, Greenfield, Blount) that he could defeat not just Moore but all five simultaneously. Though he could not do this like Dayne would have done (with left hand while taking a piss with the other hand).

Note that five northerners were killed at Tower of Joy. Presumably Dayne did kill then with his left hand, but when Reed sneaked around to his right, forgot what it was that he had in his right hand? But then, what were Whent and Hightower doing in the meanwhile?

Who was the better knight in your opinion - Selmy at 60, or Hightower at the same age?

[Markus]

Selmy claimed, in the face of Moore and all the other four (Oakhear, Trant, Greenfield, Blount) that he could defeat not just Moore but all five simultaneously.

That's something I always found interesting. Clearly it's hyperbole and an expression of Selmy's anger, hurt, wounded pride and contempt for anybody who would serve under the Kingslayer. It may also lend itself to the interpretation that Selmy has a very high opinion of his own skill at arms and that he feels contempt for the martial abilities of his fellow Kingsguards though.

In ACoK we learn that Jaime thinks Moore is pretty dangerous and when we see Moore in battle he seems a very skilled fighter, certainly nobody whose skill at arms should be held in contempt. We are given further proof of this in ASoS when Varys states that Moore's prowess was unquestioned.

So while it's possible that Selmy's outburst additionally illuminates his possible pride, arrogance and inflated self worth, or that he is a better fighter than one might be prepared to give him credit for at his age or that his feelings made him conflate the lesser fighters of the KG with the competent ones I can also imagine that GRRM may simply have adjusted the martial prowess of the KGs between AGoT and ACoK.

Who was the better knight in your opinion - Selmy at 60, or Hightower at the same age?

Selmy presumably was the best swordsman in Westeros in his youth. We don't know if Hightower was ever as good. We can also suspect that Selmy is about as good a fighter as is possible at his age while we don't know the same of Hightower. So without to have any more to go on I would suspect that Selmy would be the better fighter at least.

As for being the better knight in general, Hightower was the guy who seemed to take a very strict view about his oath to guard the king when he advised Jaime not to judge Aerys. In contrast, Selmy seemed more flexible when he judged that Viserys was too young and tainted and so served Robert.

In general, I've more sympathy for moral positions which disregard the rules and expectations of societal subsystems -- like the KG -- for the greater good of a society or superior moral values. In the case of knights, and in particularly knights of the Kingsguard, their inherent function is to serve and follow the rules of societal subsystems though. So perhaps Hightower may have been a truer knight as far as doing his perceived duty to his king was concerned, but he wasn't a better person.

[Ran]

Westeros isn't a setting where any man -- even the greatest of warriors -- can deal with four or five merely competent armored knights ranged directly against him, in an open space with no circumstances in his particular favor. Not even Arthur Dayne or the Dragonknight could do something like that, I think (and yes, this gives Jaime the lie, too, with his exaggeration of the Sword of the Morning's fighting ability). Barristan's claim is indeed an upset outburst, rather than a claim of fact. I doubt he could take one or two of them before he was brought down, but brought down he would be.

[Ser Howsmelly]

But Selmy is beyond 60 years old. I realize GRRM is pushing the boundaries of the possible sometimes but people at Selmy's age simply aren't as fast, strong or untiring as they were in their physical prime. They don't think as fast either.

I apologize for butting in but I felt your thoughts regarding age and mental + physical deterioration were a little bit cheap (viz. Very). I don't believe that humans possess an in-built switch that suddenly blinks on once you've reached the age of 60 and it's all down-hill from there. I was particularly disturbed by your thoughts on mental retardation as well. How many sixty year olds do you know? And as reflected in our culture today, one might look towards those senior officials involved in the army. If one lives a martial life day in day out it should be no surprise that they would want to keep all of their 'weapons' as sharp as possible.

And I won't comment on it but, re: Mandon Moore's face, I'm just picturing all these duels with the fighters screwing up their visages and making faces at each other. skillz.

[Jaak]

Westeros isn't a setting where any man -- even the greatest of warriors -- can deal with four or five merely competent armored knights ranged directly against him, in an open space with no circumstances in his particular favor. Not even Arthur Dayne or the Dragonknight could do something like that, I think (and yes, this gives Jaime the lie, too, with his exaggeration of the Sword of the Morning's fighting ability). Barristan's claim is indeed an upset outburst, rather than a claim of fact. I doubt he could take one or two of them before he was brought down, but brought down he would be.

Let´s recall what two-handed Jaime did in Whispering Woods. Brought down he was, alive and without serious injuries, witty and cocky as usual, after mislaying his golden sword in a Karstark neck. How many merely competent armoured, er, northerners did he take? Some are listed in addition to the Karstark, but were obscure common soldiers included in the list? And how many were ranged directly against him?

[The hairy bear]

. How many merely competent armoured, er, northerners did he take? Some are listed in addition to the Karstark, but were obscure common soldiers included in the list? And how many were ranged directly against him?

According to the text "When he saw that he was lost, he rallied his retainers and fought his way up the valley, hoping to reach Lord Robb and cut him down". So Jaime was charging, surrounded with his men.

The text only mentions three persons who were slain by Jaime: Torrhen and Eddard Karstark, and Daryn Hornwood. All of them young boys, who probably had never been tested in battle.

IMO it's great feat, but not that unrealistic. And the fact that he was caught alive suggests that that once his comrades had been killed and he found himself surrounded, he decided to surrender.

[Markus]

Ser Howsmelly,

I apologize for butting in but I felt your thoughts regarding age and mental + physical deterioration were a little bit cheap (viz. Very). I don't believe that humans possess an in-built switch that suddenly blinks on once you've reached the age of 60 and it's all down-hill from there.

Neither do I believe so. However, how many 60 year olds do you see competing and winning in Olympic sports or soccer or football or other athletic sports? Why do you think that is so? Physical development in middle age -- from 40 to 65 -- is characterized by the points I mentioned.

Muscle strength, reaction times, sensory keenness and cardiac output all decline. In other words, people lose speed, strength and stamina and their sensory input diminishes. This doesn't mean that older people can't be fit or that they can't be fitter than a lot of younger people who aren't trained, but they won't be as fit as before either.

I was particularly disturbed by your thoughts on mental retardation as well. How many sixty year olds do you know?

I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm certainly not saying middle aged or older people are mentally retarded. Far from it. What I said was that 60 year olds don't think as fast as they used to. The speed with which they process (sensory) information and access information from long term memory declines with age. They may come to the same solutions -- or even better ones when they've increased their knowledge base compared to their younger selfs -- but they take more time.

And as reflected in our culture today, one might look towards those senior officials involved in the army. If one lives a martial life day in day out it should be no surprise that they would want to keep all of their 'weapons' as sharp as possible.

Certainly, but even those people who keep their weapons as sharp as possible would be no match, physically, at age 60 to their 30 year old selfs under normal circumstances. Note that the maximum age for enlistment into the active marines in the US seems to be 28 years. They seem to know that age is an important factor for physically demanding jobs.

[Jaak]

And the fact that he was caught alive suggests that that once his comrades had been killed and he found himself surrounded, he decided to surrender.

Possible. Although, if he was surrounded not in an open field but in the midst of a large crowd, with his sword mislaid in a Karstark neck... would it have been safe for the others to swing their swords at him? They could have hit each other, or have had a sword grabbed by Jaime and turned against them? An unarmed knight might instead be physically caught by bare hands and armoured shoulders... safer for the attackers and safer for the captive... and bladed weapons could better be tucked away from him lest he grab them...

[Fireball07]

I think Selmy at 60 is a better fighter than Moore. I think Selmy is still one of the best fighters in the books. After two-handed Jaime, Sandor and Syrion, I would have him as the best.

Ahead of the Mountain, Garlan, Loras, Areo, Bronn, the Red Viper, etc.

He killed the Titan's Bastard with a stick. The Titan's Bastard was a famed warrior and must have been fairly good, certainly Jorah seemed to think so. His outburst regarding killing the 5 KG might have been exaggeration, but I ave no doubt that 1 on 1, he would beat them. Moore and Arys might have youth on their side, but Barristan still has pure skill, as well as speed and strength enough to probably match them.

[Markus]

I think Selmy is still one of the best fighters in the books. After two-handed Jaime, Sandor and Syrion, I would have him as the best. Ahead of the Mountain, Garlan, Loras, Areo, Bronn, the Red Viper, etc.He killed the Titan's Bastard with a stick. The Titan's Bastard was a famed warrior and must have been fairly good, certainly Jorah seemed to think so.

Mero of Braavos had an "evil reputation", was "as dangerous to his employers as to his enemies" and was "a nasty piece of work and good at killing". In other words, he was untrustworthy, evil, nasty and a good fighter. There is nothing in this which necessarily made him an amazing warrior only the very best fighters would have been able to defeat.

As to Selmy's stick, a good staff is quite a formidable weapon against an unarmored opponent and may actually have been an advantage for Selmy against Mero. Together with his age it clearly made Mero underestimate Selmy -- whom he didn't know -- and it also gave Selmy a greater reach.

Selmy defeating Mero didn't show us more than that Selmy is still fast and skilled and a match for some good fighters. It didn't show us that he would be a match against the likes of Gregor, Garlan, Loras, Oberyn, etc who were/are more than merely "good" at killing, nor that Jaime was wrong to state that Moore was more dangerous than Selmy.

[Fireball07]

Well what have we seen from Loras to prove that he's a good fighter? He found at the Blackwater, but who did he fight? Did he fight people better than Mero? I doubt it.

Apart from them he killed Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy. But they were supposed to be in the KG with him. I doubt they expected him to turn on them and kill them. Basically he murdered them, we have no evidence that it was a fair fight.

I would say we have just as much evidence that Barristan is a good fighter as Loras is.

[Markus]

Well what have we seen from Loras to prove that he's a good fighter? He found at the Blackwater, but who did he fight? Did he fight people better than Mero? I doubt it.

There were probably plenty of good fighters with Stannis at the Blackwater who Loras could have fought, and we actually know that Loras fought "gloriously" there. GRRM's own word.

Apart from them he killed Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy. But they were supposed to be in the KG with him. I doubt they expected him to turn on them and kill them. Basically he murdered them, we have no evidence that it was a fair fight.

Hyle Hunt states that Brienne couldn't have been the one who killed Royce because he was twice the swordsman she is. If Loras would simply have cut unarmed Royce and Cuy down why would it have mattered how good they were with a sword? I think Loras may have had an initial unfair advantage against Royce and Cuy, but by the sounds of it they were still able to defend themselves. In any case, Hunt thinks that Loras is good enough to have defeated a swordsman who he regarded as twice as good as Brienne. This makes Loras very, very good.

I would say we have just as much evidence that Barristan is a good fighter as Loras is.

Loras also fought brilliantly on Dragonstone and he nearly won the melee at Bitterbridge.

In any case, nobody denies that Selmy is a good fighter, I think. Clearly he is one. It's just that he isn't anymore -- or at least shouldn't anymore be -- in the top tier at his age.

[Szar]

While it is indeed certain that age weakens people, we don't know exactly to what degree it does so. So even if Selmy is weaker than he was at age thirty, he could still be better than Moore. Moore is good, sure -- but he hasn't been given the appellation "the finest sword in Westeros". Selmy has -- even if it was in his youth.

No, I think what Jaime meant when he said Moore was the more dangerous is that you can never know his intentions. It makes the man very, very good at surprise attacks.

As for my favorite knight.... It is without a doubt Selmy. He has flaws, yes, but that simply causes him to be human rather than Kryptonian.

[Markus]

No, I think what Jaime meant when he said Moore was the more dangerous is that you can never know his intentions. It makes the man very, very good at surprise attacks.

Jaime may conceivably have meant that.

But what would have been the likely context of Tyrion's and Jaime's conversation? Isn't it plausible that Tyrion asked Jaime who the best/deadliest Kingsguard is and that Jaime answered Moore is the most dangerous because his face doesn't give away his intentions? Would Jaime in such a context have been primarily wary of suddenly being attacked by Moore in some surprise attack or rather that Moore can't be read in a fight?

[Green Apple Fossoway]

But what would have been the likely context of Tyrion's and Jaime's conversation? Isn't it plausible that Tyrion asked Jaime who the best/deadliest Kingsguard is and that Jaime answered Moore is the most dangerous because his face doesn't give away his intentions? Would Jaime in such a context have been primarily wary of suddenly being attacked by Moore in some surprise attack or rather that Moore can't be read in a fight?

It's possible, maybe even plausible, but I would lean toward the context meaning a surprise attack or something of that nature. Just a hunch. Also, I don't think you can take people's opinions as any kind of definitive, factual statement about others abilities. Pretty much the only things you can take for certain in the books seem to be what Martin actually describes for you to see. By that token, I would say that both Moore and Selmy are very formidable fighters.

[Markus]

Also, I don't think you can take people's opinions as any kind of definitive, factual statement about others abilities.

Agreed. I don't think I was equating Jaime's opinion with an objective fact though.

Pretty much the only things you can take for certain in the books seem to be what Martin actually describes for you to see. By that token, I would say that both Moore and Selmy are very formidable fighters.

Which is I why I said that both fighters are probably on the same tier just below the top tier, with Moore perhaps winning slightly more fights against Selmy than Selmy would win against Moore if Jaime was right about Moore being the most dangerous KG except himself.

[Green Apple Fossoway]

Which is I why I said that both fighters are probably on the same tier just below the top tier, with Moore perhaps winning slightly more fights against Selmy than Selmy would win against Moore if Jaime was right about Moore being the most dangerous KG except himself.

Actually I was referring to Hyle Hunt's opinions you stated earlier when writing this. You'll have to forgive me. I had one hell of a night, and I'm suffering for it at the moment.

[Markus]

Actually I was referring to Hyle Hunt's opinions you stated earlier when writing this.

I see. I agree that Hunt's statements and opinions aren't facts. The implications I draw from them hold only true as long as Hunt is actually correct in his opinion that there was an actual fight between Loras and Royce and Cuy and not simply Loras cutting down unarmed people.

If Hunt was mistaken about Royce being a much better swordsman than Brienne then this would also impact on the level of skill Loras can be attributed with as a result of him killing Royce.