Why do people feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy?

[Catastrophe]

To be honest, I don't see how anyone can rationalize away Theon's crimes. He killed two little boys, one of his former lovers, three of his own loyal men, and a completely innocent civilian, all so that he wouldn't feel embarassed. Have other characters done worse things? Yes, but they usually had much better reasons, or else they're never considered even a little sympathetic. For all the people saying he's no worse than (insert likable but morally grey character here), let's compare:

Jaime tried to kill a little boy too, but he did so because his family's lives were at stake. If Robert found out about him and Cersei's affair, not only would both of them be executed, their three children would be killed as well. Trying to kill Bran was also by far his absolute worst act, whereas Theon murdering the miller's sons was simply the start of a long chain of heinous crimes.

The Hound is another character who killed an innocent little boy, but he did so on the Queen's orders. He might've taken some sadistic joy in the act, but he still genuinely believed that the boy had attacked the Crown Prince, a crime punishable by death.

Tyrion murdered some jerkass trying to blackmail him, a former lover who conspired to have him killed, and his abusive monster of a father. Killing them certainly wasn't the right thing to do, but it wasn't nearly as evil as killing four completely innocent people and three loyal servants, and he had much more understandable reasons for doing what he did. Like Jaime, these crimes were also his absolute worst actions, and the latter two were crimes of passion following a complete nervous breakdown.

Theon... didn't want to be embarassed. That's it. He'd rather be feared than loved, and he didn't care how many innocent people had to die to make the people of Winterfell fear him. Except the murders didn't really make anyone fear him either, they just made people utterly despise him even more than they already did.

Do I think Theon is the worst person in the series? Not by a long shot. It's clear that any of the other Greyjoys would've simply burned Winterfell to the ground instead of trying to rule it, which I'm sure would've caused far more than seven casualties. The fact that he's the best person in a family of murderous raiders and reavers isn't really saying much, though.

As an aside, I've noticed that a lot of the people who hate Theon seem to have always hated him, but that's not at all the case for me. His sullen and abrasive personality seems to turn off a lot of readers, but I actually liked his jerkass attitude in the first book. Reminds me of myself a little, in how he treats the whole world like some inside joke that only he knows. I also don't hate Theon simply for betraying the Starks: He had to choose between the family he'd pledged his loyalty to and his real family, so he'd be considered a turncloak no matter what he did. I can also understand him resenting most of the Starks for keeping him as a hostage for ten years, no matter how well they treated him. Up until Bran and Rickon's escape from Winterfell, I was rooting for Theon. It was what he did in response to their escape that made me despise him.

[FanTasy]

Maybe this link has been supplied before, my apologies if this is the case.

There is a nice video where GRRM tells us about Theons position:

[Evamitchelle]

Thanks for the link ! I'd never seen those videos before.

[Kate Poem]

How old is Theon when we meet up with him? He's 15 or 16 years old. Not 9.

He was nine years old, when he leaved his HOME with Ned Stark.

And as far as we can see - his stay at Winterfell albeit as a ward (not hostage) of Ned Stark has been fairly comfortable.

He was hostage. It is known. Ned did'nt foster him from goodnes of his heart. He was cold for him.

Its not that he lied outright - but Theon is prone to exaggeration due to a arrogance and precious sense of self-esteem. So anything he says has to be taken with a pinch of salt - well, in his case, an ocean load of sea salt.

Okay. His inner monologue even too? His memory about Ned's iced behaviour?

Theon has proven that he was a treacherous and murderous fool. I wouldn't take his POV as gospel unlike some other posters.

Which gospel? I don't understand. I know about Theon's stupidity and worst of worst "luck".

Rotfl. So just because he was shy as a little boy that gives him a perfect excuse to deliberately butcher two innocent boys for no other reason than to boost his self-esteem and standing with his soldiers?

NO. NO. NO. Being shy nine years old little boy gives him a perfect reason for feeling "no in his own place" with Starks. Nothing more nothing less.

[Sun]

its helpful when you actually say why.

Because I find his betrayal of Robb's trust, a betrayal that ultimately cost Robb his life, the Starks their home and Kingdom, and may still cost them their lives hard to forgive.

[FanTasy]

Because I find his betrayal of Robb's trust, a betrayal that ultimately cost Robb his life, the Starks their home and Kingdom, and may still cost them their lives hard to forgive.

Can you elaborate on this? How does Theons actions lead to Robb's death?

Sure, Robb trusted Theon. That was foolish, considering Theons position.

The plan with sending Theon back to the Iron Isles was that Theon would convince his father to join up with Robb. Robb would have a powerful ally with a lot of ships and men. In return Robb would let the Greyjoys be Kings also. Theon, being Balon's heir, would be a King when Balon died. So I never read his envoy as treason to Robb.

Well, Balon refused Robb's offer. He wanted the North for himself and for the Ironborn.

Then Theon went along, being Ironborn.

You could call that betrayal. But how did that lead to Robb's death at the Red Wedding?

(Edit: and what options did Theon have? If he went for Robb he would turn on his father and on the Ironborn, be a turncloak, give up his heritage.)

I just reread the chapter where Robb was declared 'King of the North'.

In the TV show we see Theon kneeling and pledge to Robb. In the book Catelyn only sees the Greatjon, Karstark, Mormont and the river lords kneel and declare Robb king. Theon is not mentioned here.

[Sun]

Can you elaborate on this? How does Theons actions lead to Robb's death?

I would argue that Theon's sacking of Winterfell (Something he did of his own volition and in direct contravention of his father's orders) was the one catalytic event that set off the events that eventually led to the Red Wedding.

BY sacking Winterfell, and reputedly killing Bran and Rickon, as well as Robb's castellan and house forces, Theon caused the following to happen:

1- Loss of the 2 Frey hostages/wards, which in turn made it awfully easy and cheap for Walder Frey to plan Red Wedding.

2- A wounded Robb distraught over the loss of his brothers and his home falls as easy prey to a Westerling/Lannister honey trap.

3-With the loss of WInterfell, Robb lost his only path of retreat, and any ability to retake Moat Cailin.

4-Roose Bolton after the Lannister win and Robb's loss of the North seizes the opportunity to turn his coat, something I argue he would not have done had Robb and his forces and Castellan in the North were still in control. Add to it that once Roose's bastard had control of Winterfell, the North and the Frey boys, Roose found himself in a very strong position to profit greatly by selling Robb to the Lannisters.

5- Had Caitling not believed her sons Bran and Rickon dead, she would never have released Jaime in order to save her remaining daughters.

6- Had Caitilin not released Jaime causing ill feeling and descent in Robb's ranks, I doubt Karstark would have defied Robb & lost his head killing the Lannister hostages.

I truly believe that had theon not sacked Winterfell, Red wedding would not have happened. I don't say that Robb would not have lost the war eventually, and perhaps even his life, he may have, I don't know. But based on the events that did happen, I place full blame for Robb's death, Caitlin's death and the Starks losing the North on Theon's shoulders.

[FanTasy]

Thanks, Sun, for your post. A butterfly effect ... you have certainly thought this through :cool4:

[wyman's cook]

theon's a real slimy prick hehe but noone deserves getting his potato pealed off until he screams for it to be choped off ..that's just sick and kinna stirs up the "hurt puppy syndrome" ..you start feeling sorry for the damn bastard and soon enough you forget whatever hideous crime he made..i bet that mr martin could make us feel sorry even for ramsay if he wanted to :P

[lyvyathan]

NO. NO. NO. Being shy nine years old little boy gives him a perfect reason for feeling "no in his own place" with Starks. Nothing more nothing less.

But he doesn't stay a nine year old boy does he? He grows up to become a 15 year old confident fool who is feeling so at ease with House Stark that he becomes Best Friends Forever with Robb Stark.

[Petit]

All of you stupid fan boys make me sick you missed the point of martin books so much! Starks arent protagonists or good guys here!!!! Theon was hold prisoner by them and his family was ruined by them of course he would go against them!

[Petit]

theon's a real slimy prick hehe but noone deserves getting his potato pealed off until he screams for it to be choped off ..that's just sick and kinna stirs up the "hurt puppy syndrome" ..you start feeling sorry for the damn bastard and soon enough you forget whatever hideous crime he made..i bet that mr martin could make us feel sorry even for ramsay if he wanted to :P

Which crime did Theon do? Please tell me!

[Erinne]

Which crime did Theon do? Please tell me!

How about murdering two little boys who had nothing to do with the Starks aside from living on their lands, just so he could save face?

[KiDisaster]

I don't like Theon. I think what he did is deplorable and I was certainly hoping that someone would enact some vengeance on him, but what Ramsay Snow did to him is even worse. To take someone's humanity from them is worse than killing them in my opinion. He reduced Theon to nothing but a toy he can mess with and throw away when he's done and that sickens me.

Ramsay is probably the character I hate most in the series primarily because of what he did to Theon (Which is quite an accomplishment because as I said I don't even like Theon) but also because of the way he reportedly treats women. If I remember correctly he releases them and then hunts them down with his dogs. The man is a psychopath, and I can't help but feel sorry for Theon. He deserved punishment for what he did, he deserved to die. But he didn't deserve what Ramsay did to him. No one deserves that.

Just my two cents.

[seanbean4lyfe]

I would argue that Theon's sacking of Winterfell (Something he did of his own volitions and in direct contravention of his father's orders) was the one catalytic event that set off the events that eventually led to the Red Wedding.

BY sacking Winterfell, and reputedly killing Bran and Rickon, as well as his castellan and house forces, Theon caused the following to happen:

1- Loss of the 2 Frey hostages/wards, which in turn made it awfully easy and cheap for Walder Frey to plan Red Wedding.

2- A wounded Robb distraught over the loss of his brothers and his home falls as easy prey to a Westerling/Lannister honey trap.

3-With the loss of WInterfell, Robb lost his only path of retreat, and any ability to retake Moat Cailin.

4-Roose Bolton after the Lannister win and Robb's loss of the North seizes the opportunity to turn his coat, something I argue he would not have done had Robb and his forces and Castellan in the North were still in control. Add to it that once Roose's bastard had control of Winterfell, the North and the Frey boys, Roose found himself in a very strong position to profit greatly by selling Robb to the Lannisters.

5- Had Caitling not believed her sons Bran and Rickon dead, she would never have released Jaime in order to save her remaining daughters.

6- Had Caitilin not released Jaime causing ill feeling and descent in Robb's ranks, I doubt Karstark would have defied Robb & lost his head killing the Lannister hostages.

I truly believe that had theon not sacked Winterfell, Red wedding would not have happened. I don't say that Robb would not have lost the war eventually, and perhaps even his life, he may have, I don't know. But based on the events that did happen, I place full blame for Robb's death, Caitlin's death and the Starks losing the North on Theon's shoulders.

thanks for elaborating :) looking back, I feel I came off a little rude when I asked you to explain why. I just like hearing reasoning! Haha I think your agrument makes a lot of sense if you look at it in a linear/simple progression. I just don't think things are that simple because you can connect anything from the start if you try hard enough. But I agree that Theon was a big player in Robb's downfall.

However, I'll say again that I don't thin Theon intentionally meant to betray the Starks. His actions were stupid and selfish, and I'm not trying to justify it...I just don't think Theon can clearly see and end game to things, and thinks in the moment a lot. He is stupid, TBH. And in ADwD he has some sort of remorse and regret.

I realize this isn't enough for some people, but it is for me. And I do feel bad for Theon. Sometimes bad people do bad things but you can sympathize. NOT WITH ALL THERE ACTIONS. But as a character overall I can sympathize with him.

[littlespider]

He deserved punishment for what he did, he deserved to die. But he didn't deserve what Ramsay did to him. No one deserves that.

Theon's an interesting case. A lot of people talk a lot about what characters "deserve" and I can definitely understand why. But I think part of what these books are doing is demonstrating how things generally don't turn out according to what someone deserves or doesn't. That's part of what makes the story feel like a nice punch to the gut sometimes, and what makes it feel pretty real, dragons and ice spiders aside. Ned is the first big example of this, following Lady and Mycah -- all figures that got utterly shafted by fate, didn't deserve what they got, and have yet to be avenged. Perhaps they won't ever be.

Now, as to Theon: a lot of people are talking about how he is an egotistical asshat here. He definitely comes across that way. But aren't some of (emphasis on some, not all) the biggest egotistical asshats out there the very same people who really do not have a basic understanding or confidence in themselves? Theon seems like a poster child of this problem. This is not to excuse him for the things he did. But his seizure of Winterfell was an attempt to make a name for himself, so that his father would be forced to recognize him, and so that he could forcefully separate his legacy from the Starks'. It was a kind of Oedipal move in that way: for the son to establish his own identity, he has to replace (violently or otherwise) his father's legacy.

I was not a Theon fan; I hated him and thought he was a stupid wienie who deserved to die. Then I read DwD; now I am on Team Theon. (Same thing happened to me with Cersei, btw.)

Question: say Theon hadn't taken Winterfell. The castle would still be vulnerable to Ramsay's attack, yes? (This is a speculative point, I realize.)

Where be krakenhead? She has a lot of wonderful insights about Theon.

[Damar]

All of you stupid fan boys make me sick you missed the point of martin books so much! Starks arent protagonists or good guys here!!!! Theon was hold prisoner by them and his family was ruined by them of course he would go against them!

For a prisoner, he had a aweful lot of liberties like being able to carry weapons and sit at their table instead of being chained in a dungeon. And his family are murdering slaving bastards who want to raid and steal people of their riches and liberty. Kicking their heads in was the one good thing Robert Baratheon did as King.

[Evamitchelle]

For a prisoner, he had a aweful lot of liberties like being able to carry weapons and sit at their table instead of being chained in a dungeon.

See the video posted above. He was treated well because he was a noble, he was still under threat of death for 10 years.

[lyvyathan]

All of you stupid fan boys make me sick you missed the point of martin books so much! Starks arent protagonists or good guys here!!!! Theon was hold prisoner by them and his family was ruined by them of course he would go against them!

Which crime did Theon do? Please tell me!

I am so bemused. :D

[lyvyathan]

Theon didn't originally have the intention to betray him. it happened when he went back to the Iron Island. AKA when he saw his dad and his sister who were unimpressed with him and thought him a weak greenlander.

Something sparked in him and he wanted to prove himself. It was stupid, but there was a reason he did it. He didn't, at the time, intend to betray Robb.

Er... you mean when Theon decided to do a 180 degree turn from his original mission, turn on House Stark, invade the North, and go on his own initiative to capture House Winterfell, and announce to the whole world that he murdered Robb's two youngest brothers - he didn't, at the time, intend to betray Robb????

Wow, that's some serious mental gymnastic moves you got there.

Look, just say that Theon felt deeply embarrassed by his people when he showed up in in his hometown and he wanted to prove himself to his father and his people. For that reason he decided to break his friendship with Robb which shows what kind of fickle person he was. He betrayed his friend and though he felt uncomfortable about it, thought he had to fight for his place in the sun right or wrong. No one asked Theon to capture Winterfell but Theon himself. It was his own initiative.

How someone can claim that he didn't intend to betray Robb when he joined the new Greyjoy Rebellion and commit atrocities in the North is totally laughable.