Why do people feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy?

[lady crackhead]

I dont read your posts because somewhere in the hazy past Ive read your posts, and ...

Hey, I know a way for the poster to make amends - go find two random young boys and kill them and stick them on pikes. I think you'll appreciate the person a whole lot better then!!!

... you troll.

Rotfl. That has to be an understatement of the season. :D

It was meant to be. You might be the only one who failed to grasp that. Which further proves my point that posters like you need to read things as literal or you get confused.

I hope she gets first dips in fisting him a good one with a gauntlet.

It's dibs. Jeyne gets first dibs on fisting Theon. But the fact that you used dips also makes me think you were thinking of what Jeyne would literally do to Theon.

[mediocre cheese]

Uhh...No; it was never the point. Youve misread.

My mistake. Terming theon's actions "valid" and using the phrase "collateral damage" gave the appearance of support for said actions. Reading your most recent post I see you had a different meaning.

Ill keep that in mind if ever i should have to brief a military contingent. But for now, im using it loosely. You know; how everyone in every military in every country uses it loosely to describe the murder of innocents who are just in the wrong place at the wrong time or pawns that needed to be killed to further a cause. They are the 'incidentals' to their big importantwars military engagements.

This is totally OT, but yes your right that many armies overuse the term collateral damage to describe disproportionate or intentional attacks on civilians. At the same time there are justified wars, and war itself is governed by law, just as peace is. And international law under ICC statutes does allow for operations with a defined military goal even if these operations will result in innocent deaths.:

"Under international humanitarian law the the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage"

At war crimes tribunals, like the one for the former yugoslavia, those who broke said laws and launched deliberate and disproportional attacks on civilians were jailed. The generals and commanders whose military operations were done out of military need, where innocents dying was incidental were acquitted (on all sides).

What Theon did would be regarded as a war crime and he'd be found guilty under international law. Now obviously applying modern war crimes statutes to a fantasy book set in the middle ages has a certain absurdity to it, but I think the point remains, collateral damage is not the correct term. The way your using it is the way war criminals use it. In its broadest sense to include any action whatsoever, so that nothing is taboo in war.

[voodooqueen126]

I hope she gets first dips in fisting him a good one with a gauntlet.

Seriously, nothing Jeyne is not a Stark. And whats worse is that Theon should have known that - so one way of looking at it is that he helped her - ie playing with her identity charade - was to save his own skin.

why would she do that, he may have had selfish reasons to save her, but she does seem to be genuinely fond of him and protective of him. Theon's pretending that she was Arya Stark, whilst it may initially have gotten her raped and married to Ramsay (which would've happened anyway) caused the 6 spearwives to save her.

if he wasn't a eunuch they could have a relationship if she ever recovered psychologically from what Ramsay did to her.

I know Jeyne is not a Stark, but she's Sansa's best friend and was part of the Winterfell household, she could be instrumental in identifying Rickon.

I guess I was wondering if Sansa would forgive Jeyne for liking Theon, considering that Theon burnt down Winterfell (and Sansa thinks that Theon murdered Bran and Rickon)

Honestly, Jeyne has no need to kill Theon...yet. At this stage, their mutual need for survival will maintain the relationship. Due to Ramsay, neither one is in the need for any relationship. So is it that hard to believe that Theon could actually be doing penance, and not acting as a selfish pig.

I think Theon is genuinely penitent, of course given what has happened to Jeyne and Theon. Neither are likely to ever have a relationship.

@ voodooqueen: I don't think Jeyne's fondness of Theon would affect her in the Northerner's eyes; they would see her injuries and what she went through, and understand her gratitude for what it is - the person who saved her life; as for her and Theon's relationship not being being able to go anywhere, we haven't gotten confirmation yet from GRRM that he's been castrated, we only speculate, so they could essentially develop a romantic/sexual relationship that grows from their bonding during their shared captivity;

as for if Theon will become a Stark ally.... do you mean will he want to, or would he be allowed to?

Sansa will probably be grateful to him for saving Jeyne, who she may feel remorse for not treating Jeyne as well as she could have, now that she's grown more mature; Rickon probably was too young to even clearly remember Theon or the massacre at Winterfell, though Shaggydog may, so if Rickon responds violently to Theon, it may be due to a subconscious link with his wolf, resulting in a feral reaction

I think Theon will want to help the Starks, perhaps by saving Edmure by boat if Cersei doesnt' have killed first, but the question is would the Starks let him. His actions after all led to the sacking of Winterfell which is no small thing.

and Sansa was genuinely fond of Jeyne, and misses her in AFFC.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Asha made fun of him for killing children; she told him it was stupid, but she never said it was deplorable. She could have. The people he meant to rule were ok with it. The people he meant to rule have pretty loose standards when it comes to killing. None of his men had any objections to killing a mother and her children.

I think one area where we are having problems here is in defining who we think Theon ultimately intended to rule. You apparently believe it was just the Ironborn. I think it was the whole bloody North. Which would explain some of our differences of opinion, regarding both the intentions of his actions, and their likely/actual outcomes.

My opinion is that Theon pretty much said "screw most of you" to the Ironborn when he jumped the shark on Balon's plans and went off on his own little adventure to make himself Prince of Winterfell. I believe he intended ultimately to rule the Ironborn as well, but only once he had set himself up as more or less King in the North. Then he could make his claim as heir to Balon by force if necessary, if he had not managed to gain their voluntary allegiance with his brilliant conquest of the North (or at least a sizeable chunk of the Northeast).

Aerys is nothing to an Ironman, who's culture is not the same. He understood that better than you.

Perhaps Aerys is nothing to an Ironman, but he was certainly a lesson Theon would have learned being raised in the greenlands - and since Theon was in a rather unique position to view it from both sides, it would have behooved him to try to do so, rather than try to shove an Ironborn way of life/thinking down the throats of people to whom they were utterly alien.

Whether Theon likes it or not, he is not Ironborn anymore. He does not think, believe or act like they do. He does have a good grasp of how THEY do all these things, which allows him to sort of give a passing nod to their ways occasionally, but he is no longer one of them. If he were, he would not have been troubled by those nightmares you mentioned.

No one is sentimental over the Starks like you seem to think.... The rest of the north favor pragmatism and realism; they knew Ned and Robb were naively stupid in their actions and that it cost them their lives, their familes, their houses, their rule.

Boy, talk about needing "proof" that you will not be able to find. Half the men following Stannis are only with him because they want to rescue "Ned's girl.". The Northmen (besides the Boltons and Freys, former of whom are hardly representative Northmen, latter of whom are not northmen by any stretch) who are in Winterfell came there to see Ned's daughter wedded. Also, repeatedly, men in Winterfell walk up on Theon, realize who he is, and all but spit on him as a turncloak and kinslayer. If anything, I am understating the sentimentality and reverence with which the majority of Northmen (TRUE Northmen) view the Starks.

Some may not like it, others , like Roose, like what he did; but they all understood why he did it, and it wasnt because Theon is afraid of being laughed at.

First, I remember no textual evidence that Roose felt one way or the other about the murder of the Stark boys...maybe I have forgotten it. I do think he would have been perfectly capable of doing it himself, IF he saw an advantage to himself in it, and IF he could be sure of not being blamed for it. He has never been the type who wanted his intentions or actions trumpeted or discussed too widely.

Second, you say "they" understand why he did it (who is they?) and that it was not to avoid being laughed at. In Theon's POV during the chapters surrounding the murders, he returns repeatedly to the thought of how Asha will laugh, everyone will laugh, and how it is better to be feared than respected. So if his own stated reasoning for the killings were not his "real" reason, then what, in your opinion, was? And what backs up your theory textually?

[seanbean4lyfe]

So....

what if Theon had been successful in really capturing and killing Rickon and Bran? How would you feel in comparison to what actually happened, because plenty of people think that's unforgivable (I have never felt that strongly about it, personally)

what's worse?

Killing two boys you grew up with (that's debatable, they're pretty young)...and being, as some delusional people seem to think, a "kinslayer". Screwing over the family that loved you dearly politely held you hostage.

or

Killing two innocent boys (who we have never met) in order to cover up your failure of not capturing the boys you intended.

I think the innocent boys is worse...because they're innocent. However, I feel if he actually kill Rickon and Bran it would be worse because we actually know them. I'm sure everyone had a mini heart attack when they though they were dead...I felt neutral, but it was still shocking.

[king of the trident]

You make it sound like he was a poor orphan the Starks took in out of the goodness of their hearts. Ned took him from his home as a hostage when he was ten years old. The Starks treated Theon better than the Lannisters treated Sansa but he doesn't owe the Starks loyalty any more than Sansa owes the Lannisters.

theon became close friends with robb and when robb became king he bent his knee and swore him to obey him then theon went to the iron islands as his envoy and betrayed him.

[sperry]

Theon was a little shit, and had two kids murdered just so he wouldn't "lose respect." He deserved to have Robb Stark, or whoever, lop his head off, or even hang him. He didn't deserve Ramsay, which is the only way in which I can feel sorry for him. No one deserves Ramsay.

[Hear Us Roar]

If its the latter, gaining acceptance and boosting self-ego through cold-blooded murder, I'm not sure how anyone can respect him. The man deserves to be flayed alive.

the iron born can respect him. They are maruding murdering rapists. To be king of that lot you have to be King murdering rapist

[lyvyathan]

I'll repeat: nine years old boy suddenly leaves his family, homeland, everything known and must go somewhere with a strange man with a cold face and big dark sword. Could You imagine yourself in this situation? Please try it. I could'nt.

It was'nt being fostered, it was being hostage. Everyone knew it.

How old is Theon when we meet up with him? He's 15 or 16 years old. Not 9.

And as far as we can see - his stay at Winterfell albeit as a ward (not hostage) of Ned Stark has been fairly comfortable.

Was he beaten or humiliated by Robb and Ned's sons? No.

In fact he was so comfortable there - that he became Robb's trusted friend so much so that Robb sent him back to his father - unescorted - in the hope of seeking a reaching a military alliance. And guess what? Theon went willingly in that role and originally planned to complete the mission as per Robb's instructions.

Does that strike you as a person who is being coerced or under fear? Compare that to the mission that Ramsay sent him on - the one to get the Ironborn defenders on Moat Cailin to surrender.

I don't know why did You think Theon lied when he thought about his feelings or fear before a man, who had cold face and big dark sword, who brought to Pyke blood and fire.

Nine years old boys could feel in this way and -

Its not that he lied outright - but Theon is prone to exaggeration due to a arrogance and precious sense of self-esteem. So anything he says has to be taken with a pinch of salt - well, in his case, an ocean load of sea salt.

Theon has proven that he was a treacherous and murderous fool. I wouldn't take his POV as gospel unlike some other posters. Then again, I'm not a Theon-shipper - that's definitely one ship I wouldn't be sailing on.

maybe I am wrong - someone said little Theon was shy.

Rotfl. So just because he was shy as a little boy that gives him a perfect excuse to deliberately butcher two innocent boys for no other reason than to boost his self-esteem and standing with his soldiers?

[Evamitchelle]

How old is Theon when we meet up with him? He's 15 or 16 years old. Not 9.

And as far as we can see - his stay at Winterfell albeit as a ward (not hostage) of Ned Stark has been fairly comfortable.

It's really quite incredible the lengths you'll go to in order to deny that Theon was a hostage of the Starks. So you won't bring up the "Theon is just a whiny liar" argument one more time you have it from Ned's own POV : "and Ned had taken his son Theon as hostage and ward". So there you have it, Theon may have been a ward of the Starks (as in "we swear not to kill your son unless you give us good cause to do so") but he definitely was their hostage as well. Theon says so, Ned says so. You really can't argue against that fact.

[Chise]

Evamitchelle, I'm just gonna subscribe to your brain, because your stand on Theon is pretty much what I believe most of the time

and yes, everyone just can't agree on the damn WARD=HOSTAGE business. Just because they gave him horsy-riding lessons and let him be Robb's playmate.. doesn't mean his "possible death sentence" was any less

[David Selig]

How old is Theon when we meet up with him? He's 15 or 16 years old. Not 9.

And as far as we can see - his stay at Winterfell albeit as a ward (not hostage) of Ned Stark has been fairly comfortable.

Was he beaten or humiliated by Robb and Ned's sons? No.

Sure, everybody knows living with a death sentence hanging over your head is real comfortable.

In fact he was so comfortable there - that he became Robb's trusted friend so much so that Robb sent him back to his father - unescorted - in the hope of seeking a reaching a military alliance. And guess what? Theon went willingly in that role and originally planned to complete the mission as per Robb's instructions.

Does that strike you as a person who is being coerced or under fear?

I don't get your logic. Because Theon left willingly, that means he was really comfortable living with the Starks? Does not follow. He went willingly because he was happy to leave and be free.

Theon made one friend - Robb. That doesn't mean he had it good overall at Winterfell.

[Evamitchelle]

Evamitchelle, I'm just gonna subscribe to your brain, because your stand on Theon is pretty much what I believe most of the time

and yes, everyone just can't agree on the damn WARD=HOSTAGE business. Just because they gave him horsy-riding lessons and let him be Robb's playmate.. doesn't mean his "possible death sentence" was any less

Thank you !

There are many things you can hold against Theon, but denying that he had a shitty childhood isn't the way to go.

[lyvyathan]

the iron born can respect him. They are maruding murdering rapists. To be king of that lot you have to be King murdering rapist

Why would he want to be the king of a kingdom of marauding murdering rapists? He could have sailed away to the East - done better things with his time. But since he chose the murdering rapist option why would anyone want to feel sorry for the scum bag?

I'd have respect him a whole lot more if he had taken an assessment of the situation and just walked away from the shit. But no, he decides to capture Winterfell and to compound his stupidity he decides to hold it despite the utter impracticality. What a moron.

[Chise]

Why would he want to be the king of a kingdom of marauding murdering rapists?

Lets ask a Ms Daenerys Targaryan that one. She stuck around her warrior rapists and half the internet won't shut up 'bout how awesome that was!

Why would Theon act completely out of his brain and walk away? and what the hell is there for him out East? magical treasures to fund the ships, crown and glory and 70 virgins?

[Sun]

Personally, I don't feel sorry for Theon, not in the slightest.

[lyvyathan]

It's really quite incredible the lengths you'll go to in order to deny that Theon was a hostage of the Starks. So you won't bring up the "Theon is just a whiny liar" argument one more time you have it from Ned's own POV : "and Ned had taken his son Theon as hostage and ward". So there you have it, Theon may have been a ward of the Starks (as in "we swear not to kill your son unless you give us good cause to do so") but he definitely was their hostage as well. Theon says so, Ned says so. You really can't argue against that fact.

And I find it bemusing at the lengths people go to rationalize the behavior of a very vile treacherous character who murders small boys, and abuses women.

Does Theon feel imperiled after Robb sends him back to his homeland? Does he cry "Freedom, I'm free and safe from the Starks?" No. He actually eagerly wants to accomplish the mission. That should have given you a clue as to how he really viewed his status as a ward of Ned Stark and not some whiny voiceover in his head.

I dont read your posts because somewhere in the hazy past Ive read your posts, and ...

But you still do, lol.

... you troll.

I love you too... mayhaps. :D

It was meant to be. You might be the only one who failed to grasp that. Which further proves my point that posters like you need to read things as literal or you get confused.

Oh, I seem to have hurt your feelings. I'm surprised! For someone who wants to sympathize with a treacherous character who murders young boys and abuses women for kicks. I thought you'd show a greater degree of tolerance.

[Evamitchelle]

And I find it bemusing at the lengths people go to rationalize the behavior of a very vile treacherous character who murders small boys, and abuses women.

If you'd read my posts correctly you'd notice that I haven't even mentioned Kyra or the miller's boys so I don't see how you can accuse me of "whitewashing" him. All I've been saying is that Theon was a hostage of the Starks for 10 years, which is undeniable (yet you've denied it time and time again).

Does Theon feel imperiled after Robb sends him back to his homeland? Does he cry "Freedom, I'm free and safe from the Starks?" No. He actually eagerly wants to accomplish the mission. That should have given you a clue as to how he really viewed his status as a ward of Ned Stark and not some whiny voiceover in his head.

You're just dismissing all the factual evidence that doesn't benefit your theories. There are a lot of instances where Theon says that he always felt like a prisoner among the Starks (inner monologue, to his uncle, to his father, to Ser Rodrik etc.) and none where he thinks that he had a great time at Winterfell. And I don't see why he would feel imperiled after being sent to his homeland since it's his homeland, aka the place where he grew up for the first 9 years of his life, the place where his family lives and the place he believes he'll inherit when his father died.

Also, it makes sense for him to want to carry out his initial mission since he would have had Casterly Rock as a reward and Starks and Greyjoys finally united, as his is wish.

[seanbean4lyfe]

Personally, I don't feel sorry for Theon, not in the slightest.

its helpful when you actually say why.

And I find it bemusing at the lengths people go to rationalize the behavior of a very vile treacherous character who murders small boys, and abuses women.

Oh, I seem to have hurt your feelings. I'm surprised! For someone who wants to sympathize with a treacherous character who murders young boys and abuses women for kicks. I thought you'd show a greater degree of tolerance.

It's really interesting how people judge others because of the characters they enjoy. idk if Krakenhead necessarily even sympathizes with Theon...arguing a person's character and sympathizing with them is completely different.

And really, when you mock someone for liking the characters they like, you come off horribly ignorant...and it takes away from the legitimacy of what you're saying. So I can see why people don't want to read your posts.

I sympathize with Theon, personally. Do I think he's a prick? Yes. Do I think he's a coward? At times, definitely. Even if his experience with the Stark's wasn't awful, he still had to deal with not having an identity. The Ironborn see him as a wolf and he was never REALLY a Stark. He has no identity, and I can understand the manifesting itself into his actions.

[seanbean4lyfe]

theon became close friends with robb and when robb became king he bent his knee and swore him to obey him then theon went to the iron islands as his envoy and betrayed him.

theon became close friends with robb and when robb became king he bent his knee and swore him to obey him then theon went to the iron islands as his envoy and betrayed him.

Theon didn't originally have the intention to betray him. it happened when he went back to the Iron Island. AKA when he saw his dad and his sister who were unimpressed with him and thought him a weak greenlander.

Something sparked in him and he wanted to prove himself. It was stupid, but there was a reason he did it. He didn't, at the time, intend to betray Robb.