Why do people feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy?

[lyvyathan]

Usually highborn hostages are not stuck in a cell and starved but are treated very well, Jaime was the exception more than the rule because he tried to escape and everybody despised him anyway. This is doubly true of children hostages, which Theon was at the beginning, being 10 years old. Sansa for example became a hostage of the Lannisters at 11, and she had her own room, was left free to wander the castle, learned the high harp, ate as well as the King etc. On the material level, her life was pretty comfortable, but most people would agree that her time as a hostage was pretty horrific. Well, it's pretty much the same for Theon. The Starks gave him food and he was made comfortable because of his high birth, but that doesn't mean his life was very pleasant then.

What what what?? Was Theon regularly beaten, humiliated in public, and forced to marry someone he didn't like by the Starks? C'mon!!!! You seriously can't compare Theon with Sansa's situation. Theon was treated very well by the Starks.

From his POV :

"The whole castle, from Ned Stark himself to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was a hostage there to his father's good behaviour and treated him accordingly. Even he bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honour than he had. Lord Eddard had tried to play the father to him from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His lady wife was, if anything, even more cold and suspicious."

Yeah - but that's from a POV of a whinny jerk. I'd take anything Theon says with a sea load of salt.

So basically Theon lived with a death sentence hanging over his head for 10 years, which had nothing to do with his own actions, so that Ned acted cold towards him because he knew he might have to chop off his head, as did Cat. Jon hated him, the other children were too young to care and the other northmen and men from the Riverlands treated him like shit as well (Mallister berates his son for being friendly towards him, The Mormont hate anything Ironborn etc.). Charming life conditions right there. Robb was the only one who managed to look past Theon's hostage status, but he wasn't above the occasional "you're not a Stark, you're just a hostage speech" :

"Jon always said you were an ass, Greyjoy", Robb said loudly. "I ought to chain you up in the yard and let Bran take a few practice shots at you". Yeah, real charming indeed.

But Theon was an ass! You yourself can't deny that he was a real jerk.

Anyway that's what teenage boys say to each other. Most boys endure much worse when they are growing up and that didn't make them go burn their former homes.

So ? Theon was 10 years old at the time, he didn't decide to start the war or fight in it, I don't see how you can blame him for his father's actions. Besides, the "he could have had worse" argument never flies. There's always something worse that could have happened, it doesn't mean than what did happen was good in and of itself.

Last I looked the rebellion hadn't really failed. True, they've pretty much lost the North but he was never the original plan. After Balon's death and Euron's crowning the Ironoborn set themselves new goals, which had nothing to do with the North. They have about a thousand ships raiding the Mander, they took the Shield Islands and parts of the Arbor and threaten Oldtown itself. Margaery and Loras were so scared about the Ironborn threat that Loras went to Dragonstone himself and won the castle in an unnecessary bloodbath to try and be done with it as quickly as possible so he could return to help the Reach. Victarion is on his way to Dany, and unlike most of the others that seek her as well, he's not dead or a slave, so he's pretty well off. That doesn't sound like a failure to me.

You would have thought that if Theon had paid attention in class he would have learned a thing or too about history and grown a brain which might make him realize that capturing Winterfell and claiming that he killed Ned Stark's two youngest boys were very bad ideas.

I don't know how you can say that Balon's first rebellion wasn't an epic fail. His castle was captured and his fleet burnt to cinders. If Robert hadn't been so nice and stupid, he could easily have sent the whole lot of them to join their Drowned God and consigned the ironborn to a footnote in history. The problem was Robert was that he was bored of long campaigns - he just wanted to go in, kick ass, and go back home asap to continue his life of debauchery.

Yes, Theon had a choice, but I think most people would choose their own families over the one that kept them a prisoner for 10 years.

Yeah, but would you chose a family whom you hardly knew and also despised you utterly? Or would you chose the Theon Greyjoy option and go and burn down your former home and kill the same people who showed you their hospitality? I might also remind you that Theon was not ordered by his father dearest to capture Winterfell - it was Theon's own initiative.

[Kate Poem]

Lywyathan, Theon was 9 years old, when he leaved his family and home.

And:

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father to him from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His lady wife was, if anything, even more cold and suspicious."

Please, imagine yourself in his place, If You can.

[Zmeischa]

I'm asking this again: where do you see this ? Seriously, this is not a trick. Because -excluding his stint as a torture victim- I dont see this in BookTheon. I saw some of it in ShowTheon, but that was to make him more sympathetic to the average viewer so they can get slammed harder with his 'betrayal', presumably.

Every. Single. Thing. He. Does.

He saves Bran because he believes Robb will be pleased with him. He suggests taking over North to win his father's approval. He drowns his prisoner because ironborn in his army demand it. He kills two children because he wants to look formidable. He uses sword to Mikken because someone dared him. What's more, he is actually sickened by some things he does, but he still does them, because he wants approval. And that is the only reason he doesn't get that approval. He tries too much.

The former seem to be interpreting the book as filtered only through their own sense of morality and so things are “simple” for them: You're good or you're bad. You're with me or against me. You're like me or you're not...and tbh fu if you're not like me.

The latter read the books and place the characters in their world, their morality, their context..

I guess I'm the former :D.

Well, yes, I filter the book though my own morality, my own personality and my own experience. There is no other way to read literature, actually. You have to use the head that is on your shoulders, because what else could you use?

But I realise that people in the books have different moral standards, and face difficult moral choices. That is a given. That is between the lines.

So. If you read the book with attention, you, probably, saw people's reaction to Theon's actions. Can you name one person who felt respect for him? One person, who thought that Theon is a complex man faced with difficult choices? I guess not. And people around him are reavers, murderes, soldiers, and all sorts of experts in "morally grey".

And, you know, sometimes it is simple. Not always, but, well, sometimes.

[Evamitchelle]

What what what?? Was Theon regularly beaten, humiliated in public, and forced to marry someone he didn't like by the Starks? C'mon!!!! You seriously can't compare Theon with Sansa's situation. Theon was treated very well by the Starks.

I didn't say they were in the exact same conditions, but the premise is the same. High-born children kept as hostages to ensure their families' good behaviour. And as I've said before his physical comfort was all well and good but not the psychological/emotional one. The Starks left him with a wicked case of Stockholm Syndrome for one. Here's one definition of the effects of SS from Wikipedia : "These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness". Doesn't that sound familiar ?

Yeah - but that's from a POV of a whinny jerk. I'd take anything Theon says with a sea load of salt.

If you immediately dismiss anything Theon says because you don't like him I don't see how the discussion can progress. Also I don't see how you can say personal feelings are wrong, it's personal feelings it's entirely subjective. No matter what you think of his character the fact remains that being a captive of the Starks left him afraid and unhappy for ten years.

But Theon was an ass! You yourself can't deny that he was a real jerk.

Anyway that's what teenage boys say to each other. Most boys endure much worse when they are growing up and that didn't make them go burn their former homes.

Yes, how dare he save Bran's life like that ? How inconsiderate of him ! He didn't even get it right the second time when he fake-killed Bran. What a loser.

I didn't know most teenage boys were kept as hostages when they grew up. You learn new things everyday.

You would have thought that if Theon had paid attention in class he would have learned a thing or too about history and grown a brain which might make him realize that capturing Winterfell and claiming that he killed Ned Stark's two youngest boys were very bad ideas.

As I've said before I don't consider this a result of stupidity but pride. Capturing Winterfell was a good idea, keeping him wasn't.

I don't know how you can say that Balon's first rebellion wasn't an epic fail. His castle was captured and his fleet burnt to cinders. If Robert hadn't been so nice and stupid, he could easily have sent the whole lot of them to join their Drowned God and consigned the ironborn to a footnote in history. The problem was Robert was that he was bored of long campaigns - he just wanted to go in, kick ass, and go back home asap to continue his life of debauchery.

I thought it was pretty obvious from the events I described that I'm talking about the second rebellion, not the first, because you said in your previous post that "Theon double dipped by joining Greyjoy's new stupid rebellion which was again bound to fail". Yeah, the second rebellion hasn't failed yet. Also, the Greyjoys are among the noblest families of the Seven Kingdom, Robert can't exactly exterminate them like the lesser Reynes or Castameres.

Yeah, but would you chose a family whom you hardly knew and also despised you utterly? Or would you chose the Theon Greyjoy option and go and burn down your former home and kill the same people who showed you their hospitality? I might also remind you that Theon was not ordered by his father dearest to capture Winterfell - it was Theon's own initiative.

In Westeros family means pretty much everything. "The kinslayer is cursed above all in the eyes of gods and men" and all that stuff. Tyrion was loyal to his family for a long time considering the amount of abuse he had coming his way all for the sake of family honour. Also we don't know much how the Greyjoys were like before Theon was shipped to Winterfell. I remember that he didn't like his brothers much but he seemed to have good memories of Aeron when he wasn't religious yet for example and his mother obviously loved him as well since his departure partially triggered her mental breakdown. So I wouldn't say "despised him utterly" exactly.

[Jon Targ]

I do feel a bit sorry for Theon after reading ADWD. He deserved to die for all the things he had done, but nobody deserves to live like Reek for that long.

[Raksha the Demon]

I'd say that Theon definitely deserved to die for murdering the miller's wife and her children. He did not deserve what Ramsay did to him; a beheading would have been more humane.

[Jamie Lannister]

I don't know. Maybe because he was flayed alive, reduced to the rank of "hobbling gimp minion" to a murderous psychopath, used and abused by Bolton V1 until he came expendable, reviled by every living person in Westeros, forced to continue the legacy of a necrophiliac monster, covered in filth and disallowed to bathe, probably castrated...

I could go on. That's the sad part -- I could go on. :(

[lady crackhead]

Sigh.

It must be love.

I didn't say it, but yes, even you, Kraken. I may not agree with any of your opinions, but I always respect anyone who at least has thought-out reasons behind their posts, whether I agree or not.

I agree. And I dont expect anyone to agree with my opinions, tbh.

There were so many instances during his reign at Winterfell where he seemed to look at these people, asking himself, "Why won't you get behind me? I'm being kind. I was one of you." Only he never was.

So, I do agree with the notion that he seeks approval...he's someone who never had it.

I think Theon also truly thought he was better than them, before he lived there and when he returned.

He came back as a conquerer first, not a friend. He laid down some tough talk as soon as he assembled them for his, Im-Prince-WF-now speech. He seemed to think he was acting how an Iroborn would act though his short reign. His concerns were not in keeping the folk appeased and approving of him. His concern was in keeping them cowed and cooperative to his demands. He killed one of them for mouthing off right then, when he could have had him knocked unconscious and thrown in 'jail'. He didnt do that to seek anyone's approval, not even his men's. He wasnt dim enough not to know that throwing their septon down a well wasnt going to garner him any approval. He had the men who raped Palla whipped to show them that he was a just ruler, not to get them to like him. Theon never expected to be loved, but he was surprised that they hated him as much as they did because he thought he was doing a decent job as ruler of WF. At base though, he didnt care. He routinely chose to make them fear him, not like him.

Every. Single. Thing. He. Does.

He saves Bran because he believes Robb will be pleased with him. He suggests taking over North to win his father's approval. He drowns his prisoner because ironborn in his army demand it. He kills two children because he wants to look formidable. He uses sword to Mikken because someone dared him. What's more, he is actually sickened by some things he does, but he still does them, because he wants approval. And that is the only reason he doesn't get that approval. He tries too much.

I. Think. You. Misread. Him. :)

So that we understand one another. You say 'theon craves approval' , 'seeks approval', etc., which implies that he has a need to please. That there is some gaping psychological need for him to be approved. I disagree with this definition.

He saves Bran because he's impetuous and, yes, courageous, beause he has confidence in his skill at archery, because he thought it was the right thing to do in that situation, and because he was the only person on the scene who could do something. Not because he seeks Robb's approval. When you read prior to that scene, you see the real Theon. Robb is a pal to him, a younger foster brother type, but he lags behind to talk to the older men and track turkeys, as I recall. He could give a shit about Robb or Bran, then. He does what he likes, as he likes. He's also telling a what starts out as a really dirty story about him and two women. Robb gets mad at Theon and tells him to shut up about that stuff where Bran can hear him. Theon doesnt shut up because he seeks Robb approval. Theon knew Robb well enough to guess he would react that way. So Theon being Theon, he either didnt give a thought about Robb and Bran at all and just blathered about what he felt like in the moment, or he was purposely trying provoke a negative reaction from Robb. He got a perverse thrill from that kind of thing. Did he expect Robb to thank him afterwards? Yes; he thought he did a great thing, saving Bran's life and was stung that he got an earful of shit from Robb about it, instead of gratitude. Like anyone would expect in his place.

As I said before, he is only seeking Balon's approval to garner his favor and take his rightful spot. Theon isnt pining for his dad to treat him like a real son, and he doesnt decide to do the things he does will the goal of making his father proud of him. Theon doesnt suffer any shortage of confidence in himself; he knows he deserves to be rightful heir, and everything he does is geared toward that goal. Again, anyone in his position would react the same way. Especially if he was emasculated & humiliated by having had Asha picked over himself. If anything, Theon is angry at Balon. He notes that Balon doesnt even come to greet him when he reaches his former home. He's pissed, but you can tell he's not surprised. Balon is a cold fish.

There is a difference between having a goal and working towards that goal, such as impressing your father enough to be reinstated as heir, and trying to fill an emotional hole in yourself by seeking everyone's approval of you to prop up your selfworth. Theon might want acceptance and to be respected, but he isnt trying to sell himself to anyone but his father...to secure his future and place.

He drowns his prisoner, kills Mikken, kills the miller family... because he thinks that is what an Ironborn leader-warrior would do. And it is. Yes, he's trying to be more ironborn --he seeks to rule them. Of course he needs to conform to them and their ways.

He's not drowning septons to make Damphair like him better. He's doing it because it is required of him. It is literally part of his 'job.' Likewise, Theon doesnt expend any energy in trying to get his ironmen's approval. He notes that they look at him as a soft greenland boy. That is fact. He could care less. He kills one of his men by mistake for being drunk when he told them that he wouldnt stand for it. His reaction is pretty much, Shit. Well at least theyll take me at my word a little more now. He has his mind set. He knows hes going to be victorious in the end. He spends no time even attempting to be likable to his men.

The reason some of the things he does as an iroborn sicken him is because he has two internal sets of morals inside himself -one learned on Pyke from birth, and the set learned at WF under Ned for the next decade. And they are diametrically opposed in a lot of instances. He is torn. It's this hesitation, this failure to be completely one or the other, that sealed his fate; within the weight of the 10 previous years of his life. He never stood a chance.

Well, yes, I filter the book though my own morality, my own personality and my own experience. There is no other way to read literature, actually. You have to use the head that is on your shoulders, because what else could you use?

Who told you that? Because it's wrong. You bring more than your morality and judgement to a work of fiction. You immerse yourself in the morality of the world that the characters are in, and to some extent you are also living their lives vicariously. Morality is fluid. This is not an opinion, this is fact. Morality has never been static throughout human history. If while reading fiction you cant lose yourself and your judgmental framework and immerse yourself in another one that might even be contrary to yours, then d say you're doing it wrong and youre getting a lesser experience. Well written characters give you something more than just entertainment.

So. If you read the book with attention, you, probably, saw people's reaction to Theon's actions. Can you name one person who felt respect for him? One person, who thought that Theon is a complex man faced with difficult choices? I guess not. And people around him are reavers, murderes, soldiers, and all sorts of experts in "morally grey".

Those people didnt read Theon's story. So those people dont matter.

[lyvyathan]

I didn't say they were in the exact same conditions, but the premise is the same. High-born children kept as hostages to ensure their families' good behaviour. And as I've said before his physical comfort was all well and good but not the psychological/emotional one. The Starks left him with a wicked case of Stockholm Syndrome for one. Here's one definition of the effects of SS from Wikipedia : "These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness". Doesn't that sound familiar ?

But the fact remains that Theon lived a pretty good life in Winterfell. He did not suffer the same level of abuse as Sansa did - and he lived pretty much the same sort of life as Robb and his brothers. You might say that this act of kindness amounted to abuse but that really revolved around your definition of what constitutes right and wrong. Was Theon being held as a hostage by the Stark an evil act comparable to a terrorist's hostage?

You also have to acknowledge the universal level of indignation in the world of ASOIAF against Theon for turning against the Starks. Understand that and you will realize why Theon's actions were wrong.

If you immediately dismiss anything Theon says because you don't like him I don't see how the discussion can progress. Also I don't see how you can say personal feelings are wrong, it's personal feelings it's entirely subjective. No matter what you think of his character the fact remains that being a captive of the Starks left him afraid and unhappy for ten years.

I'm not dismissing it. Its just that I know for a fact that he is a whinny, proud, arrogant fool. So whatever he says or thinking is going to held suspect. Its the same if GRRM writes a POV for Ramsay Snow - you think we should accept his POV as gospel too?

So what if he's unhappy? Go sail around the world. Join the Night Watch. Do anything other than turn against the same people who sheltered you and treated you well.

Yes, how dare he save Bran's life like that ? How inconsiderate of him ! He didn't even get it right the second time when he fake-killed Bran. What a loser.

I didn't know most teenage boys were kept as hostages when they grew up. You learn new things everyday.

Duh, yes, he saved Bran's life from the Wildings. Give the man a medal already. Oh wait, he later goes and cuts his head off and tells the whole world about it.

As I've said before I don't consider this a result of stupidity but pride. Capturing Winterfell was a good idea, keeping him wasn't.

No, capturing Winterfell - the seat of Ned Stark, the hero of the North -was a bad idea. The act of treachery - acknowledged by virtually everyone in the 7 Kingdoms - made House Greyjoy a pariah in the eyes of all Northern men. And to make matters worse, Theon (in the eyes of everyone) executes Ned's two youngest boys. That's the worse possible strategy ever - now, any idea of negotiation with the Ironborn is anathema to the North; it locked them into a war of attrition which made their prospects for a peaceful settlement totally remote now.

This act of aggression enables the Tywin/Bolton faction to rally the North against the Ironborn who now seen to be more wicked than the Lannisters.

I thought it was pretty obvious from the events I described that I'm talking about the second rebellion, not the first, because you said in your previous post that "Theon double dipped by joining Greyjoy's new stupid rebellion which was again bound to fail". Yeah, the second rebellion hasn't failed yet. Also, the Greyjoys are among the noblest families of the Seven Kingdom, Robert can't exactly exterminate them like the lesser Reynes or Castameres.

The 2nd Greyjoy war was a continuation of a hopeless conflict that should never have been started. Both wars were started by the same fool, using the same plan for the same purpose. Identical.Can House Greyjoy conquer the 7 Kingdoms? Can it even conquer the North or hold any significant Northern castles against enemy siege?

House Greyjoy is going to become House Deep Fried Calamari at the end of the series.

In Westeros family means pretty much everything. "The kinslayer is cursed above all in the eyes of gods and men" and all that stuff. Tyrion was loyal to his family for a long time considering the amount of abuse he had coming his way all for the sake of family honour. Also we don't know much how the Greyjoys were like before Theon was shipped to Winterfell. I remember that he didn't like his brothers much but he seemed to have good memories of Aeron when he wasn't religious yet for example and his mother obviously loved him as well since his departure partially triggered her mental breakdown. So I wouldn't say "despised him utterly" exactly.

Family only goes so far. GRRM is at pains to point that out - look at Dany's relationship with her mad brother - look at Tyrion's relationship with his family - or even Jon's relationship with Ned and the Stark family. All three of them sacrificed their blood ties for a higher (another) goal.

Theon was wrong to have turned against the Starks and he's received his just reward by becoming a captive of Ramsay. Hopefully,

despite his escape he'll spend the last moments of his life under Ramsay's cruel blade

, better men and women have received worse.

[lyvyathan]

There is a difference between having a goal and working towards that goal, such as impressing your father enough to be reinstated as heir, and trying to fill an emotional hole in yourself by seeking everyone's approval of you to prop up your selfworth. Theon might want acceptance and to be respected, but he isnt trying to sell himself to anyone but his father...to secure his future and place.

If its the latter, gaining acceptance and boosting self-ego through cold-blooded murder, I'm not sure how anyone can respect him. The man deserves to be flayed alive.

[David Selig]

You also have to acknowledge the universal level of indignation in the world of ASOIAF against Theon for turning against the Starks. Understand that and you will realize why Theon's actions were wrong.

Have we seen the reaction of anyone but Northerners and riverlanders to that? Of course Theon is a traitor in their eyes, but that doesn't make it universal. When Tyrion got the news of Theon taking over Winterfell, he didn't think "what a traitorous bastard" or anything like that. Of course the Lannisters benefited from that, but still..

But the fact remains that Theon lived a pretty good life in Winterfell. He did not suffer the same level of abuse as Sansa did - and he lived pretty much the same sort of life as Robb and his brothers.

Weren't you one of those who argued that Jon had a terrible time as a kid because Cat was cold and distant to him (If I remember wrongly, sorry in advance)? Theon had both Ned and Cat being cold and distant to him in addition to the real possibility of losing his life if Balon decides to rebel again. If Jon's situation was bad , Theon's was much worse.

[Hear Us Roar]

yeah the possibility your head could be cut off any day is crazy

[Evamitchelle]

But the fact remains that Theon lived a pretty good life in Winterfell. He did not suffer the same level of abuse as Sansa did - and he lived pretty much the same sort of life as Robb and his brothers. You might say that this act of kindness amounted to abuse but that really revolved around your definition of what constitutes right and wrong. Was Theon being held as a hostage by the Stark an evil act comparable to a terrorist's hostage?

I'm not saying Theon suffered the same amount of abuse that Sansa did, just that he was abused as well. I wouldn't call separating a 9 year-old from his family under threat of death a good thing.

I'm not dismissing it. Its just that I know for a fact that he is a whinny, proud, arrogant fool. So whatever he says or thinking is going to held suspect. Its the same if GRRM writes a POV for Ramsay Snow - you think we should accept his POV as gospel too?

I don't see what I can argue on this subject. If a character's thoughts tell me "I feel..." I'll certainly believe that they are indeed feeling that way, whether it's Davos or Ramsay saying it. So if Theon said that he was afraid for his life, of course I'll believe him.

So what if he's unhappy? Go sail around the world. Join the Night Watch. Do anything other than turn against the same people who sheltered you and treated you well.

Well he can't, that's kinda the point of him being a hostage. He can't go anywhere without a Stark ordering him to go there first.

Duh, yes, he saved Bran's life from the Wildings. Give the man a medal already. Oh wait, he later goes and cuts his head off and tells the whole world about it.

He didn't actually kill Bran.

No, capturing Winterfell - the seat of Ned Stark, the hero of the North -was a bad idea. The act of treachery - acknowledged by virtually everyone in the 7 Kingdoms - made House Greyjoy a pariah in the eyes of all Northern men.

Because the Northerners had always loved the Ironborn before Theon came along right ? The Ironborn are reavers used to raiding the Western Coast of Westeros, aka the North and the Riverlands. The Northmen hated them well before Theon did anything as exemplified by the Mallister House for example, whose Lord shows animosity towards the Ironborn before Theon ever took Winterfell. The Mormonts are also pretty contemptuous of the Ironborn, as one of the Mormont girls tells Asha in ADwD.

And to make matters worse, Theon (in the eyes of everyone) executes Ned's two youngest boys. That's the worse possible strategy ever - now, any idea of negotiation with the Ironborn is anathema to the North; it locked them into a war of attrition which made their prospects for a peaceful settlement totally remote now.

This act of aggression enables the Tywin/Bolton faction to rally the North against the Ironborn who now seen to be more wicked than the Lannisters.

The 2nd Greyjoy war was a continuation of a hopeless conflict that should never have been started. Both wars were started by the same fool, using the same plan for the same purpose. Identical.Can House Greyjoy conquer the 7 Kingdoms? Can it even conquer the North or hold any significant Northern castles against enemy siege?

House Greyjoy is going to become House Deep Fried Calamari at the end of the series.

I wouldn't really call the North united : you have Bolton/Karstark on one side, Manderly on another and Stannis/Mountain Clan on yet another one. And besides Asha no one has interest in the North on the Iron Islands anymore, why would they care if they could conquer the North ? They're quite busy with Oldtown at the moment, which is much, much richer.

If Victarion/Euron gets Dany/dragons they have a chance of making it alive at the end.

Family only goes so far. GRRM is at pains to point that out - look at Dany's relationship with her mad brother - look at Tyrion's relationship with his family - or even Jon's relationship with Ned and the Stark family. All three of them sacrificed their blood ties for a higher (another) goal.

I wouldn't say Jon has sacrificed his blood ties for a higher goal, he wouldn't have been stabbed by his own men if he had. As I said before Theon didn't have such a bad relationship with his family before he was forcibly separated from it. He also seemed as a kid to have a much better relationship with the Ironborn as a whole than the Northmen. Every one in the North hated him on principle because he was a Greyjoy, whereas on the Iron Islands he was treated rather well for being the son of Lord Balon (he has fond memories of Dagmer Cleftjaw, Aeron Damphair etc.).

[flame7926]

When I saw the title of this thread, i thought I misread it. He is in no way as bad as the Freys. He attacked winterfell, and whats wrong with that. They are people he has every right to hate. He killed two boys. Not a good thing, but he saw it as necessary in war to pacify the conquered population. The Freys lied and murdered hundreds on guests that were allies. Not comparable at all.

[Kate Poem]

But the fact remains that Theon lived a pretty good life in Winterfell. He did not suffer the same level of abuse as Sansa did - and he lived pretty much the same sort of life as Robb and his brothers. You might say that this act of kindness amounted to abuse but that really revolved around your definition of what constitutes right and wrong. Was Theon being held as a hostage by the Stark an evil act comparable to a terrorist's hostage?

I'll repeat: nine years old boy suddenly leaves his family, homeland, everything known and must go somewhere with a strange man with a cold face and big dark sword. Could You imagine yourself in this situation? Please try it. I could'nt.

It was'nt being fostered, it was being hostage. Everyone knew it.

I don't know why did You think Theon lied when he thought about his feelings or fear before a man, who had cold face and big dark sword, who brought to Pyke blood and fire.

Nine years old boys could feel in this way and - maybe I am wrong - someone said little Theon was shy.

[Chise]

ok, so basically it all comes down to us all not being able to agree on this "foster child VS hostage" business, and measuring Theon's actions to our own moral codes.... geez, wonder what that says 'bout my own morals then (for those keepin score, I liked the guy, he was mighty entertaining to read)

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

There's absolutely no excuse for Theon's murder of those two boys. It was horrendous, and no amount of arguing or debating will change that. Upon taking Winterfell (which he never should have done in the first place) he allowed his men to influence him too much. And worse, he allowed Reek (actually Ramsay) to influence him too much. In his attempt to prove himself a leader, he let his men walk all over him. A better option to hunting down two underage boys would have been to take a commanding stance with his men and lay down the law, and perhaps also leave to go to Deepwood Motte with Asha as she suggested.

As for why people for sorry for him. He's lived with fear, possibly, his whole life. His father, Balon, is a hard man, and seemingly unloving. When Theon is brought to Winterfell, he tries to become a part of the Stark family, but according to his POV chapters, he was always hyper-aware of the spectre of death looming overhead in the form of Ned Stark's sword Ice. And we all know that Theon was a political hostage. Also, although we know that Ned is a very loving father, we also know that he can at times seem icy and grim, even to his own wife and children. Theon may indeed have lived in fear of him. Theon may have chosen to sack Winterfell in a subconscious way of passive-aggressively getting back at his dead foster "father" for never giving him the love and sense of family he craved.

Also, people feel sorry for him because, as stated in the English Bill of Rights and the 8th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, "cruel and unusual" punishment is considered unacceptable. And being skinned and tortured and having fingers amputated (as well as possibly being castrated) certainly fits into that category. Does Theon deserve to be punished for the crime of murder? Yes. But does he deserve to be punished by a man like Ramsay Bolton, and in that way? No.

[Zmeischa]

He wasnt dim enough not to know that throwing their septon down a well wasnt going to garner him any approval.

Ш

In fact, he was dim enough to explain to the same septon we has going to throw down a well that he had a valuable reason for doing it :D.

I won't argue with the rest, that is too long, too tedious and really to no awail.

Yeah - but that's from a POV of a whinny jerk. I'd take anything Theon says with a sea load of salt.

No, I think Theon has a point there, The trouble with him is that he is in a very complicated situation, but he is able to see only a very simple peice of it - a piece that lets him feel good about himself, or sorry for himself. It is true that he was a hostage in Winterfell, it is true that he wanted to see Ned Stark as a father-figure, but was afraid of him at the same time, it is true that he loved Robb as his brother. All those things are true at the same time. He just forgets the bits he doesn't like. He is sincere when he says that he wore a noose and it chafed. He is sincere when he rememebers how he and Robb used to play together. He also sees those true, sincere feelings as a reason to whine about his crappy life.

I said it once, I'll say it again. He is a lot like Cersei in that. She also had a rough deal. She also sees herself as a victim of the unjust fate, no matter how cruelly she ruins other people's life. It is all about her, after all. With Theon it is all about him.

[voodooqueen126]

You know since Theon rescued Jeyne and she is now fond of him (though it can never go anywhere) how would that affect Jeyne's relationship with other Northerners, especially the Starks?

[Hear Us Roar]

killing the boys was a means to an end, a good idea. Better to kill the world think him ruthless than a failure. Word could not get out that he let them escape. he would never gain a throne if he did. In the game of thrones nothing is off the table, people die by the thousands, a few kids makes no matter