Why do people feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy?

[Lord_Debaka]

I realize why you would want Theon to die. But the treatment he is forced to endure by Bolton is NOT punishment. Bolton never said to him "This is for what you did". He's just a sadistic dude with a complex.

I could see cutting Theon's head off, hell even torturing him to death to be honest.

But I would feel sorry for anyone who was treated like that... anyone.

[Chise]

But the treatment he is forced to endure by Bolton is NOT punishment. Bolton never said to him "This is for what you did". He's just a sadistic dude with a complex.

and speaking of bastard Bolton... why did he use Theon as a chewtoy, but not the Frey boys? Its not like Big Walder and Little Walder were all that high in the Frey household foodchain... while Theon was the eldest [living] son of House Greyjoy... are Ironborn that useless in Seven Kingdoms?

[Raksha the Demon]

killing the boys was a means to an end, a good idea. Better to kill the world think him ruthless than a failure. Word could not get out that he let them escape. he would never gain a throne if he did. In the game of thrones nothing is off the table, people die by the thousands, a few kids makes no matter

It might have been a good idea for Theon. It was not a good idea for the miller's wife and her two young children. Sorry, while I deplore people dying by the thousands, it is not an excuse for murdering an innocent woman and her children. Theon was resentful of the Stark children outwitting him and his being laughed at because of their escape; that was the main reason he murdered the little boys. That was his most heinous act, in my opinion; followed closely by the killing of the Winterfell septon and others.

And I still feel sorry for Theon because of his prolonged torture by Ramsay. But he doesn't get a pass from me for murdering people, any more than I would give Melisandre and Stannis a pass for burning those poor starving men, or Cersei for murdering three young children and giving Falyse Stokeworth to Qyburn for vivisection or other tortures, or Tywin for ordering the murder of Rhaegar's children, or Jaime for trying to murder Bran and crippling him instead. Having a rough childhood or trying to advance one's position or hide an illegal love affair is not, to me, a valid excuse for committing or ordering murder.

[voodooqueen126]

It might have been a good idea for Theon. It was not a good idea for the miller's wife and her two young children. Sorry, while I deplore people dying by the thousands, it is not an excuse for murdering an innocent woman and her children. Theon was resentful of the Stark children outwitting him and his being laughed at because of their escape; that was the main reason he murdered the little boys. That was his most heinous act, in my opinion; followed closely by the killing of the Winterfell septon and others.

And I still feel sorry for Theon because of his prolonged torture by Ramsay. But he doesn't get a pass from me for murdering people, any more than I would give Melisandre and Stannis a pass for burning those poor starving men, or Cersei for murdering three young children and giving Falyse Stokeworth to Qyburn for vivisection or other tortures, or Tywin for ordering the murder of Rhaegar's children, or Jaime for trying to murder Bran and crippling him instead. Having a rough childhood or trying to advance one's position or hide an illegal love affair is not, to me, a valid excuse for committing or ordering murder.

Do you think Theon will become a Stark ally if he survives?

[Raksha the Demon]

Not likely, especially if Bran and Rickon don't return. If Winterfell, with a genuine Stark in residence, comes under attack, and only Theon's help saves the place and people, they might be willing to deal with him again. I doubt they would take the word of Theon's squire without Bran and Osha to confirm that Theon did not burn Winterfell. At the moment, I think the best Theon could hope for from the surviving Starks would be a lack of determination to seize and execute him...

[LadyoftheNorth72]

killing the boys was a means to an end, a good idea. Better to kill the world think him ruthless than a failure. Word could not get out that he let them escape. he would never gain a throne if he did. In the game of thrones nothing is off the table, people die by the thousands, a few kids makes no matter

Oy. Actually, with his nailing-jello-to-a-wall grasp of world politics, all Theon did by killing the miller's sons was ensure he would never wear a crown. He evidently gave no (or insufficient) thought to what the murder of Ned Stark's two surviving boys would make him in the eyes of the people he meant to rule. If he wanted to know how brutal ruthlessness went over with people, he only had to look back as far as Aerys - a crowned kinf of a much larger kingdom, whose actions were so outrageous he was killed by one of his own most trusted men.

Also, I have said before and will say again, killing a "fake" Bran and Rickon was even more politically stupid. He had no clue where they were. For all he knew, they could be strolling into Wyman Manderly's hall to explain who they were and what had really happened. Talk about being laughed at. It was just dumb luck for him that they have not turned up yet.

Lastly, it is true that people realize children will die with the rest during war. But Bran and Rickon were not just any random couple of children, and they were not collateral damage accidentally caught up as a battle swept over their parents' cottage. They were the sons of one of the most beloved and revered men in the realm, also killed unjustly, whose mother has been slain by another insane atrocity at the RW along with their beloved older brother, and whose two sisters were imagined to be dead or suffering fates worse than death. If he had spent a year scouring the Seven Kingdoms, he could not have found to boys to "kill" who would be worse for his cause, power and reputation.

Any normal person (meaning, besides Ramsay) who had caught Theon would have asked the most obvious question: why? Why slaughter two innocent children, one barely more than a toddler? And hos answer would havebeen what ...they embarrassed me? REALLY? That would be your bad. And even if you were too stupid to have them guarded the first time, why not just bring them back to Winterfell, put them in a room, and lock the damn door this time?

There has been a lot of back and forth about how poor poor Theon grew up under the shadow of this horribly scary man Ned, who never laid a hand on him or hurt a hair on his head. Theon has become almost obsessed by the wrongs he thinks were done to him as a "hostage.". I guess it is lucky for him that Ned never read the Theon Greyjoy Book on Prisoner Treatment ...otherwise the first time Theon made fun of Robb, mouthed off at his tutors, or did not show up for dinner on time, he would have been crow food too.

[voodooqueen126]

Not likely, especially if Bran and Rickon don't return. If Winterfell, with a genuine Stark in residence, comes under attack, and only Theon's help saves the place and people, they might be willing to deal with him again. I doubt they would take the word of Theon's squire without Bran and Osha to confirm that Theon did not burn Winterfell. At the moment, I think the best Theon could hope for from the surviving Starks would be a lack of determination to seize and execute him...

I am just really curious about what Theon's relationship will be with Rickon (who I think will return in TWOW) and potentially Sansa (especially in light of her friendship with Jeyne Poole)/

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

@ Lady of the North: my argument was never that Theon was correctly interpreting Ned's behavior, only that he never felt loved or like he was a part of the family; and that he felt as if he was th butt of some joke by all in the castle; and I also made a point of pointing out that i not for a second thought that this excused his murders - only explained why he felt he had to conquer Winterfell and dominate it's people

@ voodooqueen: I don't think Jeyne's fondness of Theon would affect her in the Northerner's eyes; they would see her injuries and what she went through, and understand her gratitude for what it is - the person who saved her life; as for her and Theon's relationship not being being able to go anywhere, we haven't gotten confirmation yet from GRRM that he's been castrated, we only speculate, so they could essentially develop a romantic/sexual relationship that grows from their bonding during their shared captivity;

as for if Theon will become a Stark ally.... do you mean will he want to, or would he be allowed to?

Sansa will probably be grateful to him for saving Jeyne, who she may feel remorse for not treating Jeyne as well as she could have, now that she's grown more mature; Rickon probably was too young to even clearly remember Theon or the massacre at Winterfell, though Shaggydog may, so if Rickon responds violently to Theon, it may be due to a subconscious link with his wolf, resulting in a feral reaction

[Evamitchelle]

and speaking of bastard Bolton... why did he use Theon as a chewtoy, but not the Frey boys? Its not like Big Walder and Little Walder were all that high in the Frey household foodchain... while Theon was the eldest [living] son of House Greyjoy... are Ironborn that useless in Seven Kingdoms?

Ramsay is sadistic but not completely stupid. He's already alienated half the North, if he alienated the Freys as well, with whom the Boltons already have an alliance since the RW, he'd be toast in a matter of days. No one cares about the Ironborn in the North, they actually hate them so it doesn't matter what happens to Theon in the eyes of the Northener. It's also beneficial for Euron, the current King, to have his nephew disappear. And Big Walder seemed to enjoy Ramsay's activities, maybe Ramsay was enjoying having an "apprentice" for once ?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

And Big Walder seemed to enjoy Ramsay's activities, maybe Ramsay was enjoying having an "apprentice" for once ?

It was actually Little Walder who was beginning to take after Ramsay and admire/try to mimic him. Too bad that ended in another symbolic Frey Pie.

What bothered me about the Frey boys is why Late Lord Walder did not demand their return after Winterfell was destroyed. Little Walder may have been turning into a sadistic little twerp, but he was just a child too and removed from Ramsay's influence might have gone back to being more normal. I am extremely worried about Big Walder; I sincerely hope he has the sense to get himself out of there at the earliest opportunity (maybe ask for Wyman's protection now that his cousin is gone; obviously whoever killed LW had noted the difference in the boys' personalities and chose LW for his closer relationship with Ramsay.

[Evamitchelle]

It was actually Little Walder who was beginning to take after Ramsay and admire/try to mimic him. Too bad that ended in another symbolic Frey Pie.

I can never keep them straight. :bang:

[mediocre cheese]

The miller family got killed under the pretext that Theon could better protect his own men and keep the castle secured. 'Better to have them fear you'. It didnt prove correct for him, as it turned out. As gross as it is, they were collateral damage in war.

Yes, and elia and her family got killed under the pretext that it would secure Robert's throne, and all those smallfolk killed in the riverlands by clegane and lorch were under the pretext it would secure joffrey's throne, and the RW was under the pretext of eliminating a rival army. Every atrocity that is committed has some reason, and every murder committed in anywhere is done for some purpose (other than the work of serial killers or total nuts). Is the point here that Theon is not a ramsay like serial killer? That's certainly the case, but its a very low bar. Most murderers commit their actions with some purpose and theon is no different. Its the same with his uncle, who murdered his wife.

The military term "collateral damage" means damage that is incidental to the outcome. If theon had fired arrows into winterfell with the aim of eliminating the guards, and some of those arrows unknowingly hit children or other civilians, that would be collateral damage. Killing the miller's children is not incidental, it was his intended purpose, he killed innocent children with that as his goal. That isn't collateral damage in a way any military would define it. You can say its collateral damage of the war itself, but then literally every war crime is valid both in westeros and in rl. War crimes are committed with a sustained goal in mind, just as theon's are. Theon killed innocent children, deliberately, and in a planned fashion, in order to better serve his purpose of invading and occupying a territory for which he had no right. That's about as as bad it gets in terms of actions.

[HouseofStark]

What bothered me about the Frey boys is why Late Lord Walder did not demand their return after Winterfell was destroyed.

I am extremely worried about Big Walder; I sincerely hope he has the sense to get himself out of there at the earliest opportunity (maybe ask for Wyman's protection now that his cousin is gone; obviously whoever killed LW had noted the difference in the boys' personalities and chose LW for his closer relationship with Ramsay.

the Bolton's might be keeping the Frey's as extended guests (hostages) just in case anything should arise OR maybe they've taken the place of the Starks as fostering the young boys since they are now the Wardens of the North.

Little Walder was killed, i think, because he was to marry one of Manderlys daughters or something like that. i'm not entirely sure, but if that were the case then his murder was done to prevent the marriage more than because he was the crueler of the two frey children at winterfell.

[lady crackhead]

Theres absolutely no excuse for Theon murder of those two boys.;It was horrendous, and no amount of arguing or debating will change that.

I agree. I have never disagreed with this. Never.

There is a difference in understanding a character and condoning the actions of the character. Theon murdered that mother and her children. If youre measuring the evil contained in an act, his outweighs Ramsays treatment (towards himself, only). There isnt an act more vile than what he committed, killing children and their mother. Unfortunately for the people who are outraged that he isnt dead yet for his sins, his story is more compelling than any other story in asoiaf and he is the best drawn character by large margin. His story saved DWD, singlehandedly.

Upon taking Winterfell he allowed his men to influence him too much.

Words. Prove it. People say a lot of things about Theon they never can back up. Im interested in learning where he allowed his men to influence him too much, because I dont recall him ever doing so.

He took bad advice from Ramsay twice, in desperation; it was stupid, vile and it ruined him completely. But as for being influenced by his men...you need to prove it.

In fact, he was dim enough to explain to the same septon we has going to throw down a well that he had a valuable reason for doing it.

I wont argue with the rest, that is too long, too tedious and really to no awail

In other words, you were wrong, you know you were wrong, youre embarrassed that youre wrong, and you wont argue the rest because you cant back up anything you said at all in its defense after I pulled your pseudo-facts apart and laid them bare. TBH, I wouldnt have said this so bluntly except for the fact that you spew a lot of facts that are not factual in the least and you lack the humility to admit when youre bested :D

What he did wasnt dim. It was an excuse and he was lying to himself more than to the septon. Or did you mean for us to believe he only said this to the septon to win his approval before they flung him down the well?

He did have a valuable reason for doing it. That it escapes you is no surprise. He did it as a sacrifice to the Drowned God. See, that is what the Ironborn do; at least with the resurgence of the Old Way, they do. And he is being a good Ironman. That is the culture and set of morals he is bound to, and the one he has to assume to become heir, and then later, king. It is valid, valuable and correct in reasoning. That has nothing to do with it being deplorable or inhumane. The Ironborn he led looked at Damphair as their religious figure. Do you think that the Pope had a problem with the conquistadores killing so many people when they landed ashore some new place? Maybe you can argue that the Pope was dim. That Pizarro, Cordoba and Coronado were also dim men? But argue it to someone else whos too dim to know better.

killing the boys was a means to an end, a good idea.

In the game of thrones nothing is off the table, people die by the thousands, a few kids makes no matter

It was a bad idea. And while you are right in the big picture, in the intimate one, having those kids killed kids ruined him from the inside out, immediately. It started with a guilty conscience appearing in his dreams. But its more than that. He can block it out all he can, he can insist he was forced into doing his vile deeds, but he knows what hes done. The little ghost hands that tug at him through his story from then on are not real ghosts. Theyre the ones in his own narrative; produced by his own guilty conscience.

I realize why you would want Theon to die. But the treatment he is forced to endure by Bolton is NOT punishment.

People consider it karma,

But he doesnt get a pass from me for murdering people

And who are you? Your job as a reader is to understand, not judge. Judges judge. Readers learn.

all Theon did by killing the millers sons was ensure he would never wear a crown.He evidently gave no (or insufficient) thought to what the murder of Ned Starks two surviving boys would make him in the eyes of the people he meant to rule.

Asha made fun of him for killing children; she told him it was stupid, but she never said it was deplorable. She could have.

The people he meant to rule were ok with it. The people he meant to rule have pretty loose standards when it comes to killing. None of his men had any objections to killing a mother and her children. The only thing that an ironman took exception to, Black Lorren to be exact, was Theons plan to put Beth Cassels head in a noose. Not because she was a little girl, but because they thought it was dishonorable to negotiate in that way instead of just fighting them to the death.

If he wanted to know how brutal ruthlessness went over with people, he only had to look back as far as Aerys

Aerys is nothing to an Ironman, who's culture is not the same. He understood that better than you. But no one is arguing that Theon didnt think things through and instead acted impetuously. You know, like most 19yr olds who think they know everything but dont.

He had no clue where they were.For all he knew, they could be strolling into Wyman Manderlys hall to explain who they were and what had really happened.Talk about being laughed at.It was just dumb luck for him that they have not turned up yet.

He did what he did in desperation, but he was betting that they wouldnt survive for long on foot, two small boys, one who was crippled and the other a toddler. The odds would be against them.

Lastly, it is true that people realize children will die with the rest during war.But Bran and Rickon were not just any random couple of children, and they were not collateral damage accidentally caught up as a battle swept over their parents cottage.They were the sons of one of the most beloved and revered men in the realm, also killed unjustly, whose mother has been slain by another insane atrocity at the RW along with their beloved older brother, and whose two sisters were imagined to be dead or suffering fates worse than death.If he had spent a year scouring the Seven Kingdoms, he could not have found to boys to kill who would be worse for his cause, power and reputation.

You overestimate their importance, I think. Roose would have killed them in a heartbeat in clandestine if he could have. The Freys also. They dont want any Stark in WF , not even Arya for long, because they will seek revenge for the shit they pulled on their family at some point. No one is sentimental over the Starks like you seem to think. The Stark wolf has fallen, and its for the rest to grab what they can. The rest of the north favor pragmatism and realism; they knew Ned and Robb were naively stupid in their actions and that it cost them their lives, their familes, their houses, their rule.

Any normal person (meaning, besides Ramsay) who had caught Theon would have asked the most obvious question:why?Why slaughter two innocent children, one barely more than a toddler?And hos answer would havebeen what ...they embarrassed me?REALLY?That would be your bad.And even if you were too stupid to have them guarded the first time, why not just bring them back to Winterfell, put them in a room, and lock the damn door this time?

If you can call Diane Sawyer normal, yes. A contemporary person in our world would ask that. In their world, its evident why he did it. Some may not like it, others , like Roose, like what he did; but they all understood why he did it, and it wasnt because Theon is afraid of being laughed at.

I dont think Jeynes fondness of Theon would affect her in the Northerners eyes

Jeyne is a “steward's whelp” and her family is dead. Why would anyone care what she thinks?

we havent gotten confirmation yet from GRRM that hes been castrated, we only speculate, so they could essentially develop a romantic/sexual relationship that grows from their bonding during their shared captivity

Except he helped rape her. Remember that? And he also called her a child, so if that does happen, ick, and it should happen somewhere in the distant future when she has a chance to grow up more and heal. (Not that any of them have a distant future, more than likely.)

]Rickon probably was too young to even clearly remember Theon or the massacre at Winterfell, though Shaggydog may, so if Rickon responds violently to Theon, it may be due to a subconscious link with his wolf, resulting in a feral reaction.

I want Theon to be killed by the angry toddler.

I sincerely hope he has the sense to get himself out of there

Werent they both a couple of little assholes to Bran from before Theon took WF? LW might have been a sadistic boy, but BW is no less frightening. Hes a cold little twerp, and smarter than LW, so more dangerous.

Is the point here that Theon is not a ramsay like serial killer?

Uhh...No; it was never the point. Youve misread.

The military term collateral damage ....That isnt collateral damage in a way any military would define it.

Ill keep that in mind if ever i should have to brief a military contingent. But for now, im using it loosely. You know; how everyone in every military in every country uses it loosely to describe the murder of innocents who are just in the wrong place at the wrong time or pawns that needed to be killed to further a cause. They are the 'incidentals' to their big important wars military engagements.

[lyvyathan]

Oy. Actually, with his nailing-jello-to-a-wall grasp of world politics, all Theon did by killing the miller's sons was ensure he would never wear a crown. He evidently gave no (or insufficient) thought to what the murder of Ned Stark's two surviving boys would make him in the eyes of the people he meant to rule. If he wanted to know how brutal ruthlessness went over with people, he only had to look back as far as Aerys - a crowned kinf of a much larger kingdom, whose actions were so outrageous he was killed by one of his own most trusted men.

Also, I have said before and will say again, killing a "fake" Bran and Rickon was even more politically stupid. He had no clue where they were. For all he knew, they could be strolling into Wyman Manderly's hall to explain who they were and what had really happened. Talk about being laughed at. It was just dumb luck for him that they have not turned up yet.

Lastly, it is true that people realize children will die with the rest during war. But Bran and Rickon were not just any random couple of children, and they were not collateral damage accidentally caught up as a battle swept over their parents' cottage. They were the sons of one of the most beloved and revered men in the realm, also killed unjustly, whose mother has been slain by another insane atrocity at the RW along with their beloved older brother, and whose two sisters were imagined to be dead or suffering fates worse than death. If he had spent a year scouring the Seven Kingdoms, he could not have found to boys to "kill" who would be worse for his cause, power and reputation.

Any normal person (meaning, besides Ramsay) who had caught Theon would have asked the most obvious question: why? Why slaughter two innocent children, one barely more than a toddler? And hos answer would havebeen what ...they embarrassed me? REALLY? That would be your bad. And even if you were too stupid to have them guarded the first time, why not just bring them back to Winterfell, put them in a room, and lock the damn door this time?

There has been a lot of back and forth about how poor poor Theon grew up under the shadow of this horribly scary man Ned, who never laid a hand on him or hurt a hair on his head. Theon has become almost obsessed by the wrongs he thinks were done to him as a "hostage.". I guess it is lucky for him that Ned never read the Theon Greyjoy Book on Prisoner Treatment ...otherwise the first time Theon made fun of Robb, mouthed off at his tutors, or did not show up for dinner on time, he would have been crow food too.

How can I like this post again? :D

[lyvyathan]

You know since Theon rescued Jeyne and she is now fond of him (though it can never go anywhere) how would that affect Jeyne's relationship with other Northerners, especially the Starks?

I hope she gets first dips in fisting him a good one with a gauntlet.

Seriously, nothing Jeyne is not a Stark. And whats worse is that Theon should have known that - so one way of looking at it is that he helped her - ie playing with her identity charade - was to save his own skin.

[CC-Kingmaker]

Theon may have been a crappy spoiled little turd, and what he did to Winterfell was awful, but what happened to him through Ramsay I think cancelled out. At this point with the events of ADWD, Theon is moving upward. Yet he can still be a little shit, but as of now I hope he has learned his lesson

[lyvyathan]

Theon doesnt suffer any shortage of confidence in himself;

Rotfl. That has to be an understatement of the season. :D

[lyvyathan]

In other words, you were wrong, you know you were wrong, youre embarrassed that youre wrong, and you wont argue the rest because you cant back up anything you said at all in its defense after I pulled your pseudo-facts apart and laid them bare. TBH, I wouldnt have said this so bluntly except for the fact that you spew a lot of facts that are not factual in the least and you lack the humility to admit when youre bested :D

Hey, I know a way for the poster to make amends - go find two random young boys and kill them and stick them on pikes. I think you'll appreciate the person a whole lot better then!!!

[CC-Kingmaker]

I hope she gets first dips in fisting him a good one with a gauntlet.

Seriously, nothing Jeyne is not a Stark. And whats worse is that Theon should have known that - so one way of looking at it is that he helped her - ie playing with her identity charade - was to save his own skin.

Honestly, Jeyne has no need to kill Theon...yet. At this stage, their mutual need for survival will maintain the relationship. Due to Ramsay, neither one is in the need for any relationship. So is it that hard to believe that Theon could actually be doing penance, and not acting as a selfish pig.