I have a small concern

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I'm English and i don't care at all. I read the books with british voices in my head, and i don't ever remember being bothered by americanisms, so i don't see why it would bother me in the tv show.

There's no need to complicate things.

[fitheach]

Blaine23:

Sorry, the books didn't scream American dialect to me. I think your being nitpicky because you saw a few words spelled the American way and you thought it must be an American accent.

Honestly, that could have been an editors fault- fixing words like got to gotten because they thought it was grammatically correct to do so. So if something was spelled color instead of colour you instantly assume the accent must be American? Plenty of Brits use American vocabulary and grammar these days (although with a Brit accent), and in the past their dialects depended on regions and social class... Many Canadians spell and/or pronounce quite a few words the British way, as in colour, odour, aluminium and the letter Z (pronounced Zee for Americans and Zed for Canadians and Brits), what does that make them? Not British, I assure you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_...ing_differences

Even Americans spoke and wrote in some type of British dialect a couple hundred years ago :stunned: ... As well as Irish, French, Dutch, and West African dialects, etc.

Also, Harry Potter novels had the spelling of words and grammar changed to suit the American audience for the U.S. publications (really changed!), doesn't mean that the characters were all of a sudden American. It also doesn't mean that if the author is American and writes a few words or phrases in American english that it changes the basic sound and feel of the dialogue, and that sound is European.

BTW, the problem with Rome lasting for 2 seasons wasn't because it was unpopular with the American audience (quite the opposite), but because it was a phenomenally expensive show to make. They have since sold an astonishing amount of DVD's of Rome in the U.S. alone- not counting sales overseas.

Who cares if the screenwriter is American, it doesn't mean that the series has to sound American. And when you mean the written dialect, you are ultimately meaning what accent will be used for the series.

GRRM also uses British words:

British Eyrie instead of the American Aerie.

British Arse instead of the American Ass. :P

I'm sure there's plenty more, but I don't have to books near me at the moment.

So in the end, sorry, the dialect didn't scream American to me. It's just spelling differences and very small changes.

[Evil_Weevil]

Um, don't mean to bash at all Fitheach but I thought we already established that the accents weren't the issue, more that the phrasings, which are voiced, are based (in part) on American english. Whilst this doesn't change the reading of the text to screaming AMERICAN!!! it might impact on the actor's portrayal in a minor but noticeable way.

As a Brit I have never read a fantasy novel with American accents in mind, even when the written form is clearly inspired by that literary method. Instead I often read with assorted English/welsh/scots accents and laugh/die a little inside when they come out with glaringly bad ones. For my money in fact, fantasy writers often (with exceptions both ways) write in a neutral tone that probably favours a more formal British style to suit the setting as they imagine it, but utilises American vocabulary in part so as not to alienate their domestic audience.

At least I think that's what the thread is about...

[Burgundia]

I'm sure Martin wrote the way he is used to writing. I have actually written a fantasy novel, albeit a not very good one, but when I was writing it I really wasn't thinking of accents as it is a fictional place and I imagined their accents and dialects would be unique to their area. Sometimes I would think so-and-so probably sounds similar to a generic middle eastern accent or french or italian. Dialect I would often use to separate those who were educated and literate from those who were less so, because speech patterns tend to differ there. As far as British versus American, I am American and probably unconciously use "gotten" and such because it sounds right to my ear. I am sure Martin had Europe in mind, but probably wrote to his inner ear as well. I am sure it will be fine, there may be a line or two that bugs you, but there are so many many ways to screw this series up that that would be a forgiving mess up, I'd hope.

Also, as an American, if they switch it to the British style I probably won't notice because my mind seems to translate these things when I am watching something visually and I have never been bothered or thought this much about the differences before. I knew there were some, just didn't let it overly concern me I guess. I mean, watching Cary Grant in movies I knew he had an odd accent, sort of quasi british, I believe they call it Mid Atlantic. And, I notice this particular one used a lot by relocated British actors who have probably had some voice coaching but didn't completely get rid of their accent. Either way, this thread wasn't really about accents, but dialects, which to me is barely noticeable. I hear so much bad grammar that some of it sounds right to my ears because I've heard it so much, so I think the dialect differences will be hidden to me because of that.

[fitheach]

:ack:

Um, don't mean to bash at all Fitheach but I thought we already established that the accents weren't the issue, more that the phrasings, which are voiced, are based (in part) on American english. Whilst this doesn't change the reading of the text to screaming AMERICAN!!! it might impact on the actor's portrayal in a minor but noticeable way.

As a Brit I have never read a fantasy novel with American accents in mind, even when the written form is clearly inspired by that literary method. Instead I often read with assorted English/welsh/scots accents and laugh/die a little inside when they come out with glaringly bad ones. For my money in fact, fantasy writers often (with exceptions both ways) write in a neutral tone that probably favours a more formal British style to suit the setting as they imagine it, but utilises American vocabulary in part so as not to alienate their domestic audience.

At least I think that's what the thread is about...

Blain seem to be complaining about dialect (a dialect is distinguished by its vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation) and you about phrasing (a group of words functioning as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence)- these are two different things.

As I mentioned, Harry Potter was changed dramatically in pronounciation, vocabulary = dialect, and phrasing, for the U.S. market. There are people out there who were perplexed with the British accents (because of the written changes) when the film came out because they didn't read the British version of the novels. Didn't effect the ticket sales for the films or when more books were released.

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was titled 'I have a small concern about accents' but I'm wrong it's 'concern about language', sorry mea culpa.

One (dialects) can be connected with the other (accents) and are when text is converted into film. So if I was connecting the two it is because we're talking about the screen adaptation. I agree that if there are glaring American phrases coming out of a knights mouth I may cringe a bit, but I honestly didn't notice anything too ridiculous. Seems like the accent should be a slight one with variations in region so that the phrases wont be too obvious.

The phrasing or syntax didn't seem overtly American to me, but mabe because I am one... I know Brits who use American phrasing all the time, it's become a part of their everyday slang. It seemed to me that there were some Britishism's in the novels too. If some phrases that you as a Brit noticed seem more American, should that change the whole feel of the novel? I see that you don't feel that way, but some do.

If GRRM's phrasings (or dialects) went back and forth, should that make it so the actors must speak with an American accent (on the show) because the author is American and used some slightly American sounding words (which is what Blain23 seems to be suggesting)?

In the end HBO will do whatever they want and we'll be freaking happy about it.

[Blaine]

Well if you agree with this, then there's no issue, because as I was trying to explain, that was all my point was. No-one has claimed that it's a big deal, so stop erecting stawmen. Basically, to Brits, it will be cringeworthy to hear British actors saying 'gotten', 'envisioned', 'obligated' and so on (these words might not be in the series but you get the point).

Not erecting any strawmen, just having a differing point of view. And it is definitely not a "big deal", I consider it an unneccesary change - and the subject of the thread. So, I can't really disagree without explaining why can I?

If anything I've mentioned is a strawman, please let me know. I genuinely have no idea what you're referring to.

If the programme is good, it will be a very tiny issue, and I am not claiming that all things considered, it would be best thing to change the dialect for the show, just that I, selfishly, would prefer it if they did. Though having said that, I think avoiding very obvious Americanisms (of which there are very few in the books, so this isn't a faithfulness issue) would help in attracting UK viewers without alienating any Americans (who I'm sure are not so fickle that there'll stop watching if the line is 'it's got dark' rather than 'it's gotten dark', which is all I'm suggesting), and since the BBC is financially involved if it goes to series that would be a good thing.

I'd question your ability to judge what might alienate American viewers, but I do agree there is plenty of neutral ground so that dialect doesn't become too much of a problem. Either way, I'd still always default back to the source material.

"It's got dark?" In the US, we say "gotten dark" too. It's got dark sounds like just poor grammar. :)

Blaine23:

Sorry, the books didn't scream American dialect to me. I think your being nitpicky because you saw a few words spelled the American way and you thought it must be an American accent.

Seriously? Read the thread.

That's not in any way what I'm saying. It's also the exact opposite of what I told you in my last post.

[TrueMetis]

I can't remember were but didn't GRRM say something about not bothering to write dialects but that he imagined they were there. He said something like if your reading the old bear speak and you hear sean connery you're on the right track.

I'll try to find it.

[fitheach]

I'd question your ability to judge what might alienate American viewers, but I do agree there is plenty of neutral ground so that dialect doesn't become too much of a problem. Either way, I'd still always default back to the source material.

I wouldn't be alienated at all. :rolleyes:

"It's got dark?" In the US, we say "gotten dark" too. It's got dark sounds like just poor grammar. :)

It's proper grammer in the U.K. to say "it's got dark". Since English comes from the U.K., maybe we're in the wrong- hmmmm?

It's a fantasy novel, and the great thing about fantasy is that focusing on small things in the source material is not necessary unless it changes the storyline completely. Small things can (and will) be changed- like gotten to got. It doesn't bother me at all, and I doubt GRRM is losing sleep over it.

[Skyman]

In my mind the best way to write faux-medieval dialogue uses a combination of American, British, and archaic terms (while still being understandable), which seems to be what GRR does. The word 'gotten', for instance, is a very old English usage (and sounds nicely medieval with terms like "ill-gotten"), so to me it wouldn't sound odd from a knight at all (but then, I am American). I don't mind speech being made a bit more British, but only in cases where the American usages are more modern.

And I doubt some American terms (especially ones that are older English uses) would impact the actors at all. Most of the great British Shakespearean actors don't say "To sleep, perchance to dream" in everyday usage, but somehow they manage on stage. ;)

[iheartseverus]

To me, the most common example of 'instant-Brit' in dialogue is the word 'whilst.' I'm an American but a rabid Anglophile, and I have to smile with satisfaction whenever I hear a Brit actor use it in everyday common speech, as in 'Wait here whilst I go check out.' Lol, everytime I hear it, I repeat the sentence to myself, but its no use, I just can't get away with 'whilst,' not with any aplomb or dignity. (Wish I could! Soooo cool...) Try it, my fellow Yanks, and see if you don't instantly feel like a pretentious goof. But it's perfectly normal Brit-speak. As to GoT, I could care less whether the actor says 'while I go check out,' or 'whilst I go check out,' but my ear will certainly hear it. (LOL, actually I hope they do use 'whilst,' its just so cool!)

[Evil_Weevil]

hehe as a Brit from a fairly 'proper' area (i.e. one that speaks with "Queen's English, or Oxford English) I'm loathe to shoot down your enthusiasm but nobody I know has ever knowingly used 'whilst' in everyday speech :P Sorry but its a bit archaic for modern English but would fit the tone of ASOIAF (probably)

[iheartseverus]

hehe as a Brit from a fairly 'proper' area (i.e. one that speaks with "Queen's English, or Oxford English) I'm loathe to shoot down your enthusiasm but nobody I know has ever knowingly used 'whilst' in everyday speech :P

Well, drat! :unsure:

[The Meereense Knot]

Just so long as bugger is still used I don't really care.

[Nehet]

It's proper grammer in the U.K. to say "it's got dark". Since English comes from the U.K., maybe we're in the wrong- hmmmm?

I mean no disrespect, but wanted to offer another viewpoint: Languages and dialects are neither wrong nor right when viewed this way. If a speaker is following the rules of the language that they are speaking/writing, then it's fine. On the other side of the coin, perhaps you meant American English should never have diverged from British English but because it did, AE is wrong/incorrect in all the areas where it changed. I'd disagree. Languages constantly change, which is fine and normal.

Sorry for the tangent! :leaving:

In any case, I can understand where HT Reddy was coming from. We all have our own ideas and ways of interpreting the world around us and when something differs from this, we're thrown off to some degree. I hadn't even considered how this would sound to me while watching the series, to be honest. My concern is along the lines of the characters and plot being as close to the books as possible, and not so much how they will sound.

[fitheach]

I mean no disrespect, but wanted to offer another viewpoint: Languages and dialects are neither wrong nor right when viewed this way. If a speaker is following the rules of the language that they are speaking/writing, then it's fine. On the other side of the coin, perhaps you meant American English should never have diverged from British English but because it did, AE is wrong/incorrect in all the areas where it changed. I'd disagree. Languages constantly change, which is fine and normal.

Sorry for the tangent! :leaving:

In any case, I can understand where HT Reddy was coming from. We all have our own ideas and ways of interpreting the world around us and when something differs from this, we're thrown off to some degree. I hadn't even considered how this would sound to me while watching the series, to be honest. My concern is along the lines of the characters and plot being as close to the books as possible, and not so much how they will sound.

I completely agree. I didn't mean to say that the British way of saying is better, but that we have our way and they have theirs and both are ok. The little details aren't bugging me as they are some posters. But if we're really getting into the down and dirty and are speaking of source material we can go a long way into source material, i.e. the source of the English language in itself. We dont want to go there and I was showing it as an example of how rediculous it can be.

So in the end I completely agree with you.

[iheartseverus]

Just so long as bugger is still used I don't really care.

You're right, and I feel so much better now about my beloved 'whilst' no longer being in common usage. As long as there's still bugger and bloody, things are ok. (As well as 'prat' and 'git', thought I could never exactly figure out the nuances between the two. I mean, I get that they're both insults, but the shading between a prat and a git is beyond me.)

[RWHamel]

I was hoping it would be done in late 16th century English in iambic pentameter. :)

[HT Reddy]

Not erecting any strawmen, just having a differing point of view. And it is definitely not a "big deal", I consider it an unneccesary change - and the subject of the thread. So, I can't really disagree without explaining why can I?

If anything I've mentioned is a strawman, please let me know. I genuinely have no idea what you're referring to.

Well I may have been unfair to say that - all I meant is that no-one has really claimed that it is a big deal (or at least I haven't) so if you finish your argument with 'it shouldn't be a big deal' it sounds like you're erecting a strawman who does think it's a big deal.

But agreed that I am not in a position to judge what will alienate American viewers.

One interesting case is whether they will use 'autumn' or 'fall' in the series - both are used in the books, but imo they should use autumn only in the series, otherwise it will sound weird.

[VorianGR]

I would like them to use expressions like in the books but I rarely pay attention to accents exepct from the very striking Scottish or Irish ones.

[Evil_Weevil]

You're right, and I feel so much better now about my beloved 'whilst' no longer being in common usage. As long as there's still bugger and bloody, things are ok. (As well as 'prat' and 'git', thought I could never exactly figure out the nuances between the two. I mean, I get that they're both insults, but the shading between a prat and a git is beyond me.)

haha as far as I know prat and git are on the lowest tier of offence and can be used extremely casually. Prat is roughly equivalent to something like douche (not in meaning but in its use), nobody is ever offended by that (except some feminist whores :P ). Although its not used all that frequently by younger generations, sort of the thing your dad might say.

Git is usually used a bit more frequently that prat but not much and ranks at about the same level of offence.

The only reason most Americans have heard of them is because they were about as far as swearing went in the Harry potter series, where they couldn't get away with realistic teenage responses like "Oh my fucking god!! It's a fucking dragon" or "Harry you're such a cunt, lol"

Other good english curse words

"twat!" (as in "You twat", add ...fucking... to spice it up a little)

"Nob" (see: dick, also varients: Nobjockey, nobhead)