is it just me or do stupid names in fantasy annoy everyone?

[wolverine]

#4 is not a separate case. Either you have enough information to plug a language into one of the three or you don't.

Even with Tolkien's names you can figure out some things of the language. You can figure out that "minas" is tower, "mor" is black, "dor" is land, and so on. You can figure out that "orod" is a mountain while "eryd" is the plural form of the same. You can observe how base words change shape in different compounds like "ithil", moon, in Minas Ithil and Ithilien and "anor", sun, in Minas Anor and Anórien You can compare cognates like "ithil" and "isil" in Sindar and Quenya and see how the languages were separated by regular sound changes.

Tolkien was really good at what he did.

Yeah...it really made my reading experience better.... :thumbsdown:

I read The Hobbit about 15 years ago in 5th grade and LOTR a few years ago and had no idea his languages meant anything until talking to people on this board (other then the obvious repeated ones like "minas") Some of you linguists may think this makes me exceedingly dense, but hey, I am a white-blooded American who speaks English, why would I care about other languages. Anyhow, Tolkien's elvish seems like an utter waste of time to me, I know some of you love it though.

I agree with Shryke the naming conventions just need to seem like they fit a language. I do not see the point of inventing languages, but then again I only speak one and a smattering of another. In LOTR I basically skip all the passages written in his other languages.

[Shryke]

#4 is not a separate case. Either you have enough information to plug a language into one of the three or you don't.

Even with Tolkien's names you can figure out some things of the language. You can figure out that "minas" is tower, "mor" is black, "dor" is land, and so on. You can figure out that "orod" is a mountain while "eryd" is the plural form of the same. You can observe how base words change shape in different compounds like "ithil", moon, in Minas Ithil and Ithilien and "anor", sun, in Minas Anor and Anórien You can compare cognates like "ithil" and "isil" in Sindar and Quenya and see how the languages were separated by regular sound changes.

Tolkien was really good at what he did.

That makes no sense.

There is a step between "Straight Substitution" and "Fully Developed Language". The Old Tongue in WOT is the perfect example of it too. You have enough information to recognize basic words and throw together a few basic sentences, but it's nothing near a fully developed language.

And all that stuff you mention? None of it requires or shows that a fully developed language exists behind it. It just requires a few basic notes ("Minas => Tower") and the smart usage of similar sounds to convey that "These 2 things are named in the same 'language' ".

[Ealdorman Halasahr]

There's been a lot of talk (writing?) on "Bakkerverse" here. Though I'm not on terms with some of the cultural aspects of his world, I don't think I had that many problems with his names, Cnaiür excepted, since I didn't know how to handle it. (The character is not so bad, though. Well, I mean it's bad, of course, but not boring - Cniaür is interesting as opposed to Kellhus, but that's another story, isn't it?)

Anyway, what about the following names (the setting is somewhat like the European (French/English) Middle Ages around 1300, but with a Swedish climate):

Halasahr Hurgron, Renlon Rhyger, Celestia Teraphen, Deivon Lonnegar?

Or what about these character names (the setting, I guess, is a kind of Italian Renaissance city states kind of Venice):

Ana cu'Seranta, Orlandi ca'Cellibrecca, Jan ca'Vörl, Karl ci'Vliomani, or a bridge named Pontica a'Brezi Nippoli, or the title Fjath?

[Black Wizard]

I can sympathise with bigfatcoward's problem. One of the things that puts me off reading a lot of fantasy novels is the absurd names I find in the synopses. I can't think of (or be bothered looking for) any specific examples but one does see names like Ja'rak of the Alikatan. I have no idea whether or not these names are based on any real life names but at least Dune and ASOIAF use real names or names which are based on real life names.

[Wulfram]

If anything, what annoys me are when real foreign names are used. English names don't bother me because they're normal to me and thus don't really stand out, but when you've got, say, Angus MacDonald, Julius Constantine and Jean de Pompidou it makes me think too much of the real countries.

Difficult pronunciations don't bother me. I make a point of not paying too much attention to pronunciation guides and such like and just going with what works for me as I read through.

[Thor85]

I wish good Slavic names were used more. I'm starting to get annoyed with all the West European or Nordic-sounding names in fantasy.

[moirne]

I don't like the weird, made up names either. It's actually really distracting because I'm trying to figure out how to say it instead of thinking of the actual story. I tend to stay away from fantasy with outrageous names... maybe I'm missing out, but it's just not my thing.

[Liadin]

I can sympathise with bigfatcoward's problem. One of the things that puts me off reading a lot of fantasy novels is the absurd names I find in the synopses. I can't think of (or be bothered looking for) any specific examples but one does see names like Ja'rak of the Alikatan. I have no idea whether or not these names are based on any real life names but at least Dune and ASOIAF use real names or names which are based on real life names.

I have this issue too sometimes. Too many bookjacket synopses seem determined to throw as many names and concepts at you as they can fit in the space of a couple paragraphs. Why do they feel the need to tell you that Ja'rak belongs the Alikatan tribe of Banjakabouti and that his uncle H'rgar is planning on using the wizard order known as the Nefestron to take over the land of Pandakom, etc.? Surely they could whet your interest without throwing quite so many foreign words at you? Amazon reviews do, which is why I go there when considering whether or not to read a book, rather than the bookjacket. Are some fantasy readers impressed by seeing lots of made-up words in the synopsis? Or do some of you prefer to have that exposition out of the way before you even start? What's going on here?

(That, and bookjacket writers still haven't gotten it through their heads that some things are just overdone. Recently I almost didn't read an amazing book because the bookjacket made it sound just like any other epic fantasy. In reality it was anything but. :rolleyes: )

[TannerSack]

My approach to reading fantasy.... If a name or description is difficult to interpret then just use your imagination and change it too your liking, it is fantasy after all. Allot of times I'll here an author's pronunciation of her/his foreign or invented name and think it's completely unappealing and just ignore it and go with the cool sounding one.

That said, it's not the 8 syllable names that drive me crazy 'cause those are easy to change to your liking, it's the 1 and 2 syllable names that you just can't ignore. For example, Finbar just sounds bad or Dunk(love the Hedge Night but still).

I don't care what time period or world you live in, someone calls you Dunk and they should lose an arm.

[TannerSack]

The Dustjacket synopsis point deserves it's own thread.

I wonder how many people are under the assumption that the author writes their own jacket description? Good point that more often then not it totally undermines the quality of the story.

Authors should have the final say in what goes on the dustjacket(art, title, and description) the fact that they don't is a true bastardization of their efforts.

Being one of the finest of arts, a writer should have the passion to eat out of a can until their vision is illuminated to their liking, Publishers be damned.

In a perfect world anyway.

[Liadin]

The Dustjacket synopsis point deserves it's own thread.

I wonder how many people are under the assumption that the author writes their own jacket description? Good point that more often then not it totally undermines the quality of the story.

Authors should have the final say in what goes on the dustjacket(art, title, and description) the fact that they don't is a true bastardization of their efforts.

Being one of the finest of arts, a writer should have the passion to eat out of a can until their vision is illuminated to their liking, Publishers be damned.

In a perfect world anyway.

I agree with you completely. And covers! (I was so astonished by some of the awful covers GRRM's books have gotten that I felt the need to post a thread with links to some especially egregious examples.)

Yes, this is something of a threadjack.... If I wasn't being lazy I'd start a thread right now protesting these things.

[Gigei]

I agree with you completely. And covers! (I was so astonished by some of the awful covers GRRM's books have gotten that I felt the need to post a thread with links to some especially egregious examples.)

Yes, this is something of a threadjack.... If I wasn't being lazy I'd start a thread right now protesting these things.

The one where Jon decapitates himself makes me laugh. They should just have plain covers, why waste money on stuff that looks crap? I'd prefer a red cover with black lettering to a terrible cover like that.

[Liadin]

The one where Jon decapitates himself makes me laugh. They should just have plain covers, why waste money on stuff that looks crap? I'd prefer a red cover with black lettering to a terrible cover like that.

Same here. I quite envy the British for their simple, elegant covers on the Wheel of Time and Harry Potter books, as opposed to the childish nonsense we get in the US.

[Galactus]

Finbar just sounds bad

What's wrong with Finbar? To me it sounds like... Well, a name. Not connected to any particular language overly much, it works.

What tends to bug me is when names are used in the wrong context. Like a woman's name given to a man (Hello, Eddings!) or vice-versa. Or just ranodm oddities (Kiruna? Well, I assumed it would be Kii-ruuh-na and not kiru-na like the town, but still...)

English-speakers tends to horribly botch nordic names too. I recall one instance (although I can't recall from where) where the norsemen character implies his name is pronounced like it would be in english, even though it's pronounced nothing like it...

[Trencher]

just started Prince of Nothing series (based on recommendations from this site). why do fantasy authors feel the need to give characters ridiculous names, i find it makes following the plot so much harder. had the same problem with lot of characters in Malazan. i know names in ASOIAF are also generally not common but they at least sound as if they are actual names. why do characters need to have names with 6 or 7 sylablles?

or am i just a grumpy old man?

I am about to read Bakker as well. The only names that annoy me are the ones with about 5 possible pronunciations. I would like to know how it is pronounced in the world the author has created. But It's not a big deal. I just pick one and move along.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

The only names that annoy me are the ones with about 5 possible pronunciations.

Jaime and Cersei seem to be worst offenders in this regard. ;) I have heard both these names pronounced at least ten different ways.

[Black Wizard]

Why do they feel the need to tell you that Ja'rak belongs the Alikatan tribe of Banjakabouti and that his uncle H'rgar is planning on using the wizard order known as the Nefestron to take over the land of Pandakom, etc.? Surely they could whet your interest without throwing quite so many foreign words at you?

:lol: Is does sound somewhat pretentious doesn't it?

[Happy Ent]

Jaime and Cersei seem to be worst offenders in this regard. ;)

Brienne? Do Tywin and Tyrion pronounce their prefixes the same way?

Oh had Bakker written it instead! Braïn. Taiwin. Tîrion.

(In truth, I don’t mind GRRM’s approach to this. After all, we happily read books about Charlemange or the Swedish king Charles and care few iotas about they were pronounced.

[Ormond]

What tends to bug me is when names are used in the wrong context. Like a woman's name given to a man (Hello, Eddings!) or vice-versa. Or just ranodm oddities (Kiruna? Well, I assumed it would be Kii-ruuh-na and not kiru-na like the town, but still...)

English-speakers tends to horribly botch nordic names too. I recall one instance (although I can't recall from where) where the norsemen character implies his name is pronounced like it would be in english, even though it's pronounced nothing like it...

Can you give an example of what you think is Eddings giving a woman's name to a man? I can't find anything that looks like that to me in the available character lists on the web yet.

The same name can of course be considered "feminine" in one culture or historical period and "masculine" in another. There was a king in East Anglia back in the 600s named Anna:

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/adversaries/bios/anna.html

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

FWIW, Finbar is a standard Irish name. (It's probably derived from Fionnbharr, but I'm not great with the more traditional spellings.) Whether you think it sounds bad or not is up to you, but it's not as though it doesn't exist in the real world.