Why is the 'King in the North' idea so reviled?

[VorianGR]

Just wanted to add something against Alexia's accusements of Theon, having sex with women you don't really like is not a sign of rotten character but something 90% of young men do even nowadays.

[moirne]

No one mistrusted him because he bedded women. No one in Westeros would. They mistrusted his smile more than they mistrusted his lothario type tendencies.

Yeah that smirk...

Asha never liked her brother, probably because they are too much alike.

[Lord Mord]

KAH,

Robb's actions would be directly responsible for this, because it's an entirely foreseeable consequence of letting yourself be perceived as a weak leader.

Interesting. There's really only two directions on this -- murder lots of folk or complete disaster? Are you acquainted with the term false dichotomy?

But as I've thought more about this, the real problem is Robb's having marched from Winterfell at all. It certainly didn't help his father, and, if they knew about it in King's Landing at the time, may have even helped to hasten the man's demise. Since the only result of summoning the banners in the first place could be murder, then I contend it wasn't a necessary step in the first place.

Once he'd summoned the banners, though, and then once Ned was dead, I think he would have done better to recognize the mistake of having summoned the banners in the first place and gone home.

[Alexia]

Yeah that smirk...

Asha never liked her brother, probably because they are too much alike.

Asha and Theon are nothing alike. She doesn't like him because, a) he came on to her; b) he insulted their father to her; c) he didn't care about their mother's feelings; d) he said Victarion was stupid and Aeron drunk on seawater; e) he made it plain he didn't believe in their god; f) he called her ugly, said she acted like a man and he planned to marry her off; g) he told her not to blame him for the captain's daughter because she was the only woman on the ship; etc, etc, etc. It didn't help that he was utterly incompetent either.

Nobody likes Theon except Robb.

[moirne]

Asha and Theon are both arrogant, they both sleep around, they both have strong leadership personalities. Besides all of the insults that Theon has thrown at her and her family, Asha doesn't like him because they are in a power struggle. They are alike, regardless of what you personally think.

Lord Caspen, thanks for getting us back on topic here.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Theon would likely be more competent had he grown up with the ironborn. Its really his lack of understanding for their culture which makes him disliked by his sister and uncles. They see him as a foreigner masquerading as an ironborn prince, an embarrassment. I doubt Asha viewed him as much of a threat in the circumstances.

[alguien]

His sister had a few things to say about it, and she was highly respected by her people and appears to be reasonably promiscuous from her chapters. Also, I didn't say they mistrusted him for bedding women, I said they mistrusted him for his bad character.

Was this before or after Asha grabbed his crotch and flirted with him? ;) She said he went after women alot, but not that he was a bad person for doing it. His family probably would have preferred if he raped them and made them his saltwives. Like his uncles.

You seemed to be saying that his bedding women should have been part of the evidence to his bad character, a component for why Robb shouldn't have trusted him. That's just not part of the equation at least in Westeros. That might be why you don't like him, (and I would agree with you) but its certainly not a reason (at all) why he shouldn't have been sent as envoy.

In fact, Theon's treatment of women is actually not too different from Tom O'Sevens, Tyrion, or Victarrion. Compared to most of Gregors men, the Bloody Mummers, and a good deal of Tywin's troops, Theon's a paragon of virtue. Even Jaime, who you used as an example of not treating women badly thinks that its common for men to rape women after battle, saying that Steelshanks Walton was the kind of soldier he liked and was used to. Its a medieval mindset, and certainly incorrect, but in that world Theon's womanizing would be acceptable, even admired by (some) other men.

[Alexia]

Nadie, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. ;) I don't think Theon's treatment of women is THE reason why he shouldn't have been sent as envoy; that would be silly. I think it's one component of many as to why he's a cruddy person. It's not even the worst piece of evidence to his cruddy character but I do think it's a part.

I was gearing up with comments about Ned, Robb, Jaime, and Tywin and then realized that all of these men have treated a woman badly at least at one point or another. No point, we could run circles around each other for days. It's been fun though. ;)

[alguien]

Nadie, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. ;) I don't think Theon's treatment of women is THE reason why he shouldn't have been sent as envoy; that would be silly. I think it's one component of many as to why he's a cruddy person. It's not even the worst piece of evidence to his cruddy character but I do think it's a part.

I was gearing up with comments about Ned, Robb, Jaime, and Tywin and then realized that all of these men have treated a woman badly at least at one point or another. No point, we could run circles around each other for days. It's been fun though. ;)

Fair enough. Cheers. :cheers:

Back to topic, I was thinking more about the whole Karstark execution. Did Robb make the right move? It seems like a no-win situation, but at the same time, I didn't really register any outrage from Tywin or any other Lannisters, beyond a brief mention of Kevan's grief. Perhaps what he did was the right move, politically. Still not sure.

[King Bronn l]

They want to uproot their loyal subjects by the thousands, almost entirely depleting their local economies, to send these people to their (for most of them) certain murders, on the basis of guts. They are gambling with other people's lives, and with the future of all the serfs in their fiefs. Doesn't that sound like somebody else we know and mutually revile?

Thats an exaggeration. No lord no matter how stupid takes everyone to war. There will always be an age range of the recruits they take. And even if there taking everyman between 15 and 40 they'll leave enough ppl behind to make sure that the people left will be able to survive. I mean think about it. Hyperbole much? lol

[Sirius]

. They are alike, regardless of what you personally think.

:agree:

They are practically the same person, just different genders. IMO Asha is exactly everything that Theon would have been, had he not been taken into a more civilized world as a ward for half of his life.

[DBaron]

A very lengthy and severe Winter is approaching - and they know it for a fact, after such a lengthy Summer. North would need food supplies from the South to avoid mass starvation. Only, with the whole King in the North stuff, why would it bother to help them?

The wildlings are gearing for another invasion. The last one banged the North pretty good and almost ended House Stark.

These are the two main things that always bothered me about Robb going south.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Asha and Theon are nothing alike.

Oh, but they are!

a) he came on to her;

He wasn't the one grabbing her dick.

b) he insulted their father to her;

Asha: "How many of you had homes put to the torch when Robert came? How many had daughters raped and despoiled? Burnt towns and broken castles, my father gave you that. Defeat was what he gave you."

c) he didn't care about their mother's feelings;

Rodrik:"You have not asked about your mother."

Asha: "I will see her in the morning."

Rodrik: "Stay with your mother. We will not have her long, I fear."

Asha:"My mother raised me to be bold."

d) he said Victarion was stupid and Aeron drunk on seawater;

Asha: "The Drowned God must have shoved a pricklefish up Uncle Aeron's arse."

"I do believe I'll kiss the Damphair's smelly feet and pluck the seaweed from out between his toes."

Victarion: "I was fighting battles when you were sucking mother's milk."

Asha: "And losing battles, too."

Asha:"There's no one braver than my nuncle, no one stronger, no one fiercer in a fight. And he counts to ten as quick as any man, I've seen him do it...but when he needs to go to twenty he does take off his boots."

e) he made it plain he didn't believe in their god;

I really haven't noticed any particular piety from Asha, either. That crack about the pricklefish was hardly very reverent.

f) he called her ugly, said she acted like a man and he planned to marry her off;g) he told her not to blame him for the captain's daughter because she was the only woman on the ship; etc, etc, etc. It didn't help that he was utterly incompetent either.

She publicly humiliated him at a feast, ridiculed his crown, called several men women and mocked their masculinity, ditched Tris Botley as happily as Theon ditched the captain's daughter. And Theon wasn't utterly incompetent. He's a mix, like Asha. His capture of Winterfell was quite clever, as her queensmoot speech was, but both ultimately led to failure.

I really think GRRM intentionally set up Theon and Asha's parallels. In aCoK, she's the one urging him to visit their mother, but ambition is more important for him. In aFfC, the Reader takes her role and she takes Theon's, and poor old Lanny is still neglected. They share an irreverent mockery for Aeron's pious uptightness, Victarion's slow wits, and their father's defeat. I do like her better than him for a number of reasons, not least because she hasn't committed murders to spare herself embarassment as he has. But they're quite similar, and I don't really think she truly hates him, just finds him annoying or exasperating at times.

[TrueMetis]

I really think GRRM intentionally set up Theon and Asha's parallels. In aCoK, she's the one urging him to visit their mother, but ambition is more important for him. In aFfC, the Reader takes her role and she takes Theon's, and poor old Lanny is still neglected. They share an irreverent mockery for Aeron's pious uptightness, Victarion's slow wits, and their father's defeat. I do like her better than him for a number of reasons, not least because she hasn't committed murders to spare herself embarassment as he has. But they're quite similar, and I don't really think she truly hates him, just finds him annoying or exasperating at times.

You make it sound like a typical sibling relationship, but then the book is set in a weird place so maybe it is.

[Lord Mord]

mob16151,

Thats an exaggeration. No lord no matter how stupid takes everyone to war. There will always be an age range of the recruits they take. And even if there taking everyman between 15 and 40 they'll leave enough ppl behind to make sure that the people left will be able to survive. I mean think about it. Hyperbole much? lol

Sometimes I do. I don't think I did here, because I'm not clear exactly where I exaggerated. You can argue that there aren't thousands of people, but I never said all the people, and as far as leaving the countryside depleted ... I really could have sworn I'd read more than once, since the start of the War of the Five Kings, of the farmland gradually being depleted by all the troop levies.

[Hazel]

KAH,

Interesting. There's really only two directions on this -- murder lots of folk or complete disaster? Are you acquainted with the term false dichotomy?

But as I've thought more about this, the real problem is Robb's having marched from Winterfell at all. It certainly didn't help his father, and, if they knew about it in King's Landing at the time, may have even helped to hasten the man's demise. Since the only result of summoning the banners in the first place could be murder, then I contend it wasn't a necessary step in the first place.

Once he'd summoned the banners, though, and then once Ned was dead, I think he would have done better to recognize the mistake of having summoned the banners in the first place and gone home.

Lord Caspen, just let me start off by stating that any form of reasonable discussion on this subject is just about impossible with you.

You, with your utopian morales and fear of evil and suffering, are trying to argue by wielding 'morals' as your sword and shield. You are saying that because people will die in a war, people should not go to war. You ignore all authority possessed by kings and nobles, all insignificance of the peasantry and smallfolk and use 'morals' to cut down 'objectives'.

You know, maybe the Spanish should never have attempted the Reconquista? Sure, the Iberian Peninsula would be an Arab country today, and the Spanish folk would be non-existent, but that's a neat price to pay in order to save the lives we all oh-so care about, huh? Maybe the French should not have opposed the German invasion in World War 1 and simply let them roll into Paris, in order to save lots of lives, eh? Maybe Edward IV shouldn’t have sailed for England with the intention of taking his place as king, just because it would have saved the lives of the peasants?

That makes NO SENSE. Not on a political scale, none at all.

You must have been frowning in disapproval at the death of just about every character whiles reading this series, huh? You must have gasped in outrage as Joffrey was killed, and felt only bittersweet content when Gregor Clegane died, if any at all. Because, as you say, it’s wrong to fight and war in the first place.

Robb Stark was a noble. He had half a continent under his command. His father was kidnapped, incarcerated and he was asked to bend the knee to these men. So, according to your ‘morals’ this is a worse reason to go to war, wielding your underlings as your sword and shield, than Renly’s or Stannis’s or Balon’s, who simply wanted to become kings? And when Robb himself wanted to become king, that’s when ambition overtook objective, and created a new objective. If anything, Robb Stark is relatively clean in ‘your book’ compared to the other political leaders in the War of the Five Kings, at least up until the point in which he was declared king by HIS NOBLES, who very clearly weren’t being considerate of all the poor people that would die because of that decision.

NO ONE in Westeros cared about morals on a political scale. Not Robb Stark, not Renly Baratheon, not Stannis, and not Balon. Sure, on a personal level they did. If Renly had a cat, I’m sure that he was quite friendly to it, and the same goes for his friends. But on a political level… MORALS?!

Well, there you go. But you’ll probably just dish out more arguments along the lines of “It doesn’t matter if they had the bigger army, it was WROOONG”, so I’m just going to leave this statement here.

[Lord Mord]

Hazel,

I'm not clear what the problem is you have with my moralizing on the subject Robb's actions. You keep saying it shouldn't matter, so what should matter?

[Hazel]

Lord Caspen,

Through your reply I have ascertained that, in fact, you have a clear set of morals and a very rational mindset which, although I still believe does not quite relate to the discussion in this thread, I respect and understand. I shouldn't have snapped out before as I did.

[Lord Mord]

Hazel,

No problem. Sorry about editing the original reply out. It's just that something kept gnawing me about what you'd said and I wanted to get my reply right, and not just bog everything down in, you know, blathering on in the way that I sometimes do.

I am interested in the question I posted above. I eagerly await your reply.

[Lord Mord]

Hazel,

Wait, you may not need to. If your point is only that I was OT in my response, then, I understand. I was only keeping it up because I was misinterpreting what you'd said to mean that you were in fact trying to engage the moral question. A lot of wishful thinking on my part, because sometimes you were pretty adamant about not doing so.

Next time, I will certainly try to pay much closer attention.