U.S. politics 23

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

That actually suggests a selflessness that few would credit an individual pol much less a gaggle of them, because such a move is most likely to benefit their successors, not them.

How so? Incumbents are reelected at what? A nintey-something percent rate? As long as they aren't caught molesting chimps or something they are guaranteed reelection as long as they have something to keep promising. What will the democrats campaign on in 2012/2016 if they pass UHC?

[Sariel]

Shryke,

You must be under the mistaken impression Totmund is complementing the Republicans. I think he's commentin on the political realities. I disagree with him. If passed this is simply a first step.

A first step towards what?

[The Marquis de Leech]

The only place it could happen is before the next session of Congress, when the rules are once again set in place. I can't remember whether it requires a majority or a super-majority though.

There's always the nuclear option, which may be used at any time, and requires a simple majority.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I, For one, would like to thank the Democrats in the U.S. Senate for their gift of a few hundred billion dollars in additional debt for my Great Grand Children to pay off. The Senate is very thoughtful that way.

:)

[The Progressive]

And your great grandchildren would thank them for paving the road for the establishment of universal health coverage for all Americans, and would probably look down with bemused embarrassment that many of their grandparents fought so hard to prevent it.

Sorta like many people today view those who opposed the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

[lokisnow]

well, I for one, often forget to be annoyed for the tremendous national debt my grandparents incurred of such obscenely wasteful and useless federal spending like the interstate program of the 1950s.

I'm still annoyed at all the rural electrification that took place in the 1930s. it's inefficient to supply electric lines to the american people, if there are enough of them in an area, the market will provide electric lines to rural people at a competitive rate they can afford, such as 30 or 40% of their income. What a waste that national debt incurred for that was.

And speaking of waste, how many trillions have we poured down the drain on clean water? frankly if people don't want sewage in their drinking and bathing water, they should pay for it. it's unfair that we've wasted so much on something the market will provide to those who can afford it.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Climate bills, ends to wars (maybe), job programs, student loan modification, ending the war on drugs (in my dreams), legalizing weed at least.

Climate maybe, don't experts say it will be too late by then anyway? They have lost all credibility to ending wars. Ending the war on drugs is not very popular and not enough people care about student loans.

[Shryke]

The emails are bullshit that say nothing bad. The only people who think they "prove" anything are Limbaugh or people of equal mental fortitude.

Regardless Tormund, you've still shown nothing to prove your baseless assertion that Democrats aren't going to do shit about Health Care because they only want to use it as a "get to the polls" issue.

There's always the nuclear option, which may be used at any time, and requires a simple majority.

You mean the "option" that the GOP, at it's most brazen, didn't have the guts to try? The one that is of questionable legality and is pretty unquestionably sleazy?

Yeah, it ain't gonna happen.

I, For one, would like to thank the Democrats in the U.S. Senate for their gift of a few hundred billion dollars in additional debt for my Great Grand Children to pay off. The Senate is very thoughtful that way.

:)

Yup, cause if they'd done nothing, everything would have been just fine....

[The Progressive]

Note that the two biggest floggers (NS and SYM) of Climategate on this board hasn't resume posting since after all their talking points were challenged on the other thread.

[The Marquis de Leech]

You mean the "option" that the GOP, at it's most brazen, didn't have the guts to try?

The Republicans gave up on it because the Gang of 14 denied them a majority on the issue.

The one that is of questionable legality and is pretty unquestionably sleazy?

Sleazy? Yes. Illegal? No.

Yeah, it ain't gonna happen

I know it's not going to happen. This is Harry Reid we're talking about. If, however, the Democratic leadership actually had the guts to threaten use of the nuclear option (not necessarily use it - the threat would be enough), the Republicans might think twice before abusing procedure.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Sorry, I'm confused. Aren't you talking about reconciliation? Have both parties not used this with one example being the GOP on Bush's tax cuts?

Reconciliation is about by-passing the filibuster on budgetary issues. The nuclear option is about destroying the filibuster altogether (hence the name).

The nuclear option goes as follows:

The Senate has some legislation on the floor.

Minority declares that it is filibustering.

Majority Senator A raises a point of order, declaring that there has been enough debate.

Presiding Officer (i.e. the Vice President) upholds the point of order.

Minority Senator B makes an appeal to overturn the Presiding Officer's ruling.

Majority Senator C moves to table (i.e. put-in-the-bottom-drawer-and-forget-about) the appeal.

The move to table only needs 50 + VP to pass.

Appeal tabled, so debate stops, and filibuster ends.

Vote on underlying legislation takes place, requiring only 50 + VP to pass.

[Starkimus]

:: Shakes his head ruefully ::

I have read the last 3 or 4 pages of this thread, and really can not believe what I have read. This “health care reform” bill does nothing to control costs, will actually increase payments, and saddle everyone with more debt than we can shake a stick at. I mean really… 10 years of ‘deficit free’ spending. Sure, that is easy to accomplish when there are only 6 years of benefits, and 10 years of taxation. What happens under 10 years of ‘benefits” and 10 years of taxation? Well, no one will answer that question will they. Why? Because it’s the wrong damn answer. Oh, and lets not forget, that the 500 million cut to medicare, will never happen. Not to mention the ‘Doctor Fix’. This is phony accounting, and Mr. Obama should quite lying on public television, he is setting a bad example for my kids.

I have no clue why any sane person would support this monstrosity of a bill. And, lets be honest here, there are some whorish senators out there. Back room deals cut…surely not on CNN live like our President promised they would be. How many promises have and will be broken now? Raising taxes on those making under $250,000…check. Transparency in the legislative process…check. Working in a bipartisan manor…check. A new cleaner Washington DC!! Oh, that shit went way bye by. Change we can believe in!! Oh yeah!!! Sign me up now!!

I salute all the people who voted NO to this crap that is being forced on the American people. The people have spoken time and time again in polls, and in some cases have rejected what the Democrats are forcing on us by 60%+. I guess Washington is just deaf and dumb now.

Oh, here is a good quote:

This is, of course, monumentally stupid since the Democratic Party has spent the last like 8 months trying to get something passed and the only reason it hasn't succeeded is due to blatant obstructionism on the part of the GOP, the idiotic rules of the Senate and the fact that those 2 things put all the power in the hands of a power-hungry shithead like Lieberman, who opposes reform simply because it gets his cock hard to make other's suffer.

I’m sorry fellow poster, but those ‘blatant obstructionists’ are merely trying to save you from yourself, and the huge government takeover. You really should thank them for making the Democratic Leadership look silly and scramble. Now, Ill grant you one thing…Lieberman is a flip flopping idiot who saw a way to make a buck for his state. He is pretty damn slimy. However, Pelosi, Reid, and Obama are way more slimy to be sure.

And now lets tackle the question of forced insurance. Under the Senate plan, Americans will be forced to buy insurance, or face a fine. OK, now…I am not a lawyer, but that smacks of unconstitutional to me. Health Insurance is not a right. And it sure as hell isn’t something a DEMOCRATIC government should force you to buy.

“Oh, but Mr. Stark, the Insurance Companies are such evil profit taking monsters, and must be stopped!!”

Umm, no…the average Profit Margin of Health Insurance Companies is under 5%. See, this is one thing that really pisses me off about the media. For example, when the BIG EVIL OIL COMPANIES where making ‘record profits’ back in what…2004 or whatever…their PROFIT MARGIN (what really counts in a business), was about the same as it ever was. Anyone who has ever had to manage a budget, or make a budget, or look at financials knows that Operating Costs, Operating Profit, Cash Flow, and Profit Margins are key….Not overall profits or overall sales. Its bad reporting.

In short, I really wish people would wake up and take their Obama colored glasses off. America can not afford this bill, it doesn’t ‘bend’ the cost curve, and will ultimately strangle and destroy a 6th of the US Economy.

I know you won’t listen, or take this post seriously, but I feel its my duty to try to shake you folks out of your ‘wet dream’ so to speak. I mean, you like GRRM…so you can’t be all bad….

Hasta!

Stark Out!

[Security Squish]

I, For one, would like to thank the Democrats in the U.S. Senate for their gift of a few hundred billion dollars in additional debt for my Great Grand Children to pay off. The Senate is very thoughtful that way.

:)

C'mon Scot, you don't even spend any time with your Great Grand Children, what's it to you? You could at least call them evey now or then or send them a Christmas card. ;)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SS,

C'mon Scot, you don't even spend any time with your Great Grand Children, what's it to you? You could at least call them evey now or then or send them a Christmas card. ;)

Yeah, well before they're conceived those little buggers are pretty non-active.

:P

Triskele,

Thank you for seeing my point. My problkem with this bill is that it appears to simply make the existing "system" larger while doing little or nothing to correct the problems in that system that push up prices for medical services. I understand about taxation of "Cadillac" plans but how many people actually have such plans? Further, aren't a lot of those plans for unionized employees (a major Democratic contituancy)? Somehow I doubt, at the end of the day, Union plans will be hit with a tax.

My last question is for everyone. Do you really think people should go to jail if they refuse to buy insurance and they refuse to pay yearly fines for refusing to buy insurance?

[Artas]

Health Insurance is not a right.

No, but decent healthcare is.

[Annelise]

Tormund,

Because they have to concern themselves & worry over re-election. If the pols believed your talking chimp analogy, we might actually see a little more courage in their votes. Anyhow, they could ride political gold for many moons if they'd passed UHC, they open themselves to attack from their base & primary challengers over watering it down.

[quote name='Triskele' date='21 December 2009 - 11:35 PM' Please keep in mind though that your grandkids are fucked on spending with no action anyways. It's kinda like Afghanistan. There are no good options. I mentioned this before (and I don't expect this to make anyone jump for joy), but there are actually lots of cost control measures in the bill. The problem is that they might not work. Don't blame the Democrats for this entirely. Blame an uber-powerful sector of the economy that does not bear real reform, partly because they are so powerful, and partly because the American electorate, while agreeing that reform is needed, cannot rally around the nature of that reform.

[Annelise]

My last question is for everyone. Do you really think people should go to jail if they refuse to buy insurance and they refuse to pay yearly fines for refusing to buy insurance?

This never struck me different from having to buy car insurance. I guess you could end up in jail over that, if you worked at it?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Annelise,

This never struck me different from having to buy car insurance. I guess you could end up in jail over that, if you worked at it?

You can choose not to drive or not own a car and therefore not have to buy Auto insurance. Can anyone choose not to have Health insurance under these mandates?

The only way I can think to enforce the mandates is to jail people who refuse to pay the fines authorized for those who do not purchase health insurance as mandated. That or amend EMTALA to allow treatment be denied those who do not obtain health insurance.

[Galactus]

The simplest way would be to simply use scaling fines, to prevent people from just paying and moving on with their lives.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Galactus,

The simplest way would be to simply use scaling fines, to prevent people from just paying and moving on with their lives.

If they refuse to pay the fines? What then?