Guy Gavriel Kay

[Galactus]

I'm... Not a huge Kay fan?

His books always strike me as "okay" at best. They're not BAD, far from it, but they're inferior to Martin and Hobb, or even Bakker and Jordan.

There's just... Nothing there, I feel, all pretty prose and dramatic posing with little substance.

[Liadin]

In short, my impression of this book so far is that it consists entirely of a group of melodramatic people with personalities so superlatively attractive they might have been put together by a focus group, wandering around and discussing how terribly impressed they are with each other. Thats it.

Although I loved the book, I think this is a fair point. Kay does have a certain tendency to tell rather than show at times. Particularly with respect to the awesomeness of his characters. But if this bothers you so much, how is it that you liked Lions?

[Datepalm]

Although I loved the book, I think this is a fair point. Kay does have a certain tendency to tell rather than show at times. Particularly with respect to the awesomeness of his characters. But if this bothers you so much, how is it that you liked Lions?

I have no idea! Part of it is that I really was about 15 when I read it, I suppose, and part that I was absolutely starved for reading material at the time. Also, really, I don't mind that sort of romanticism in and of itself (And heck, maybe it worked better in a book who's central story is a love triangle, and is generally on a smaller scale, more so than in an epic rebellion story) he's just not actually following through with anything here. Its all too rarefied, too inevitably perfect. I mean, sure, i'm aware some of these people are going to die, but they're sure to be so very pretty doing it, y'know? The whole book just exists on a such a narrow emotional register - from a kind of floaty melancholy all the way through to sweetly sorrowful - that its not actually very emotional or romantic at all.

[Dragonsworn]

I like the Fionavar books because of the mythological references. A lot of Norse and Arthurian mixed into the stories, which I thought is really cool.

Tigana is easily my favorite fantasy book and probably my second or third favorite book that I've ever read (next to Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5 and possibly Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises).

Also loved Lions and Arbonne (haven't read the other ones yet).

What is really cool about GGK that you will find is that he has little things in each of his books that tie-in to other books. A reference to Fionavar (or some variation of that name), or something of that sort. It is really cool the way he does it. Plus I love GGK's passion for different forms of art (particularly music, which he regularly puts a lot of weight on).

[haLobEnder]

That's about the best way of summarizing my feelings from what I've read. I'm intrigued enough to consider reading another, but I'm not blow away by any means.

What books of his have you read? My enjoyment of Kay can vary so much from book to book; I didn't like the Sarantine Mosaic, but I LOVED Under Heaven; I recommend giving at least a few of his books a read before writing him off.

As for how he ranks compared to other authors, I wouldn't put him on GRRM's level exactly, but I'd certainly place him above the likes of Hobb and Jordan in terms of story telling ability. I'm amazed by how much he can do in one volume, that other authors (like the latter two mentioned) have trouble doing in multiple volumes. I also get the sense that while he likes his characters, he's not afraid to harm them or kill them off if that's where the story needs to go; That's a quality I always appreciate in a writer.

How far into Tigana are you, Datepalm?

None of the complaints you have about the book are things I particularly noticed while reading it, but then again I was quite young --14 or 15-- and relatively inexperienced with epic fantasy --i.e. had yet to read GRRM. I'm wondering if I read Tigana again today if it would still hold up.

[Datepalm]

How far into Tigana are you, Datepalm?

None of the complaints you have about the book are things I particularly noticed while reading it, but then again I was quite young --14 or 15-- and relatively inexperienced with epic fantasy --i.e. had yet to read GRRM. I'm wondering if I read Tigana again today if it would still hold up.

I have a feeling the things that are bugging me are to an extent a feature and not a bug, y'know? I tend to react hard - and badly - to stories about super special characters defined by their charisma. :dunno:

[Mack Kilimaro]

I have a feeling the things that are bugging me are to an extent a feature and not a bug, y'know? I tend to react hard - and badly - to stories about super special characters defined by their charisma. :dunno:

It's always interesting to see how different people react to the same book. I've read all of your criticisms and I can't even say I disagree with any of them. But I love Tigana anyway. I guess that means I am more interested in the characters who get swept up into the epic revolution rather than the leader types. I like Devin, Catriana, Sandrene, and Erlein. For all that Alessan's the leader of the rebellion, I'm more interested in the progression of his cause than I am in him as a character.

Your comments about Brandin and Dianora are fascinating too.

I don't think these two are supposed to be likable in any way. It's more of a narrative necessity to show inside one of the Big Bads. Getting in someone's head, or near it, doesn't necessarily guarantee a sympathetic response. You mentioned that Dianora's pretty much severe Stockholm Syndrome, which I think is the point. She's spent so long there that she became what she was pretending to be. When it's her warning that prevents the assassination attempt (sorry if you didn't get to this part yet, but I'm pretty sure you're past it), that's her ruining her best chance. This is kind of a tragedy of possibility, where I feel bad that it ended up that way without particularly feeling bad for Dianora.

I suppose it's also that the reader knows that Dianora saving Brandin is for the best, because we know that both sorcerers must be wiped out for the Palm to be free of the outside influence. So really, nothing could be more disastrous for Alessan's grand plans than for that assassination to succeed. Dianora served the cause indirectly while thinking she'd committed the ultimate betrayal. Kinda sucks for her, but she's made her choice and she has a fairly comfortable existence, so I don't feel like one is supposed to pity her so much.

[Galactus]

I think to a large degree my problem is that Kay talks about all these people with larger-than-life charisma... But we don't *see* it.

Even in Lions we got all this talk about how awesome they were... And what was shown was two kind of ordinary people in pretty surroundings.

[Datepalm]

It's always interesting to see how different people react to the same book. I've read all of your criticisms and I can't even say I disagree with any of them. But I love Tigana anyway. I guess that means I am more interested in the characters who get swept up into the epic revolution rather than the leader types. I like Devin, Catriana, Sandrene, and Erlein. For all that Alessan's the leader of the rebellion, I'm more interested in the progression of his cause than I am in him as a character.

I'm kind of wary of his cause too, tbh. This kind of power-of-names, we-were-awesome-once, give-me-freedom-or-give-me-death, its-good-to-die-for-our-country nationalism meets me as more cheap emotional heartstring pulling without much substance. Its very easy to evoke, sure, but he never manages to put any real, like, pathos or despair into it. (Honestly, I know people, real people in real life, who are violently insane over what certain places should be called. Its powerful, yes, and its interesting to read about, but pretty it isn't.) I just don't care about Tigana at all, sorry.

ETA - I don't feel sorry for Dianora, I think she's either a twat or has stockholm syndrome, but I think Kay wants me to regard her situation as some tragically romantic heart rending dillema, and its just not, becuase I don't buy for a second that theres really anything there with Brandin, not because its psychologically unlikely or politically spineless or whatever (No, really, I am all over 'villain redeemed by the power of love' stuff, I swear. I wrote 'Sauron gets a girlfriend' fic when I was 11, for heavens sake) but becuase neither of them are interesting enough characters, and their interactions are about as romantic as the "We care about YOU" paragraph you get on your phone bill.

[haLobEnder]

So if I've read Lions and Tigana and wanted to read another, what would most recommend? My impression is either Under Heaven or Song for Arbonne, but I just thought I'd ask.

Both are good but I'd go with Under Heaven. It better showcases his range given hat it's set in a completely different backdrop than anything he's done prior.

[williamjm]

It's always interesting to see how different people react to the same book. I've read all of your criticisms and I can't even say I disagree with any of them. But I love Tigana anyway. I guess that means I am more interested in the characters who get swept up into the epic revolution rather than the leader types. I like Devin, Catriana, Sandrene, and Erlein. For all that Alessan's the leader of the rebellion, I'm more interested in the progression of his cause than I am in him as a character.

I agree, I liked Tigana a lot but I didn't particularly like Alessan and I didn't really find him a particularly interesting character.

I'm kind of wary of his cause too, tbh. This kind of power-of-names, we-were-awesome-once, give-me-freedom-or-give-me-death, its-good-to-die-for-our-country nationalism meets me as more cheap emotional heartstring pulling without much substance. Its very easy to evoke, sure, but he never manages to put any real, like, pathos or despair into it. (Honestly, I know people, real people in real life, who are violently insane over what certain places should be called. Its powerful, yes, and its interesting to read about, but pretty it isn't.) I just don't care about Tigana at all, sorry.

Kay does say in his afterword that he does intend Erlein's argument with Alessan where he argues that patriotism is no good reason for his to risk his life is meant to be a genuine debate. I'm not sure Kay really gave equal prominence to Erlein's argument, perhaps because we see the argument from the point of view of one of Alessan's followers.

So if I've read Lions and Tigana and wanted to read another, what would most recommend? My impression is either Under Heaven or Song for Arbonne, but I just thought I'd ask.

I think they're both good, and I'd suggest the Sarantine Mosaic as another option. Which one of the books you read did you like more? Arbonne is more like Tigana, and Under Heaven/Sarantine are more like Lions.

[UndergroundMan]

I think that "Under Heaven" is one of the best books that I've ever read. I thought Tigana was better than Lions of Al Rassan, personally. I plan to read his Sarantine Mosaic books soon.

[Deedles]

Advice please. The show hooked my Mom, ably helped by me providing the books asap. She's currently up to ASOS. I expect a freaked out phone call soon. My question is, what do I give her next? Oddly, this Easter she apparently read and enjoyed the first of Edding's Belgarion series (I'd previously bought this for my brother when he was 14). She liked "The Historian" by Elizabeth Kostova, and "Labyrinth" by Kate Mosse. I was thinking "A Song for Arbonne" or "Lions". Any advice or other recommendations. This is mybig chance to potentially stop her ever questioning my taste in books.

[Alexia]

I picked up The Sarantine Mosaic and am working through it while I wait for ADWD to arrive from Amazon. I almost finished the first book and thus far I like it very much.

That being said, I agree with some of the other ladies in this thread about Crispin's love life.

It got really ridiculous when that lady whose name I cannot remember how to spell (the one he gave the ruby ring to) showed up in his room.

BTW, I sort of agree with FLOW's unkindly said interpretation of Dianora in Tigana. I liked her character quite a bit, she was my favorite character of the bunch, but given what Brandin did to them I don't feel the romantic vibes coming out of this and I do see a mega-betrayal.

[Underfoot]

I finished Tigana last weekend and enjoyed it a lot, but don't think it'll be something that I remember forever (pun intended). I'm holding off starting the Lions of Al-Rassan until after I get ADWD next week, but have high hopes for it.

Dianora was, oddly, my favorite character, followed by Catriana and Sandre.

[Arthmail]

I'm... Not a huge Kay fan?

His books always strike me as "okay" at best. They're not BAD, far from it, but they're inferior to Martin and Hobb, or even Bakker and Jordan.

There's just... Nothing there, I feel, all pretty prose and dramatic posing with little substance.

Ugh. Kay is better than Jordan, Hobb, and Martin.

-In terms of pure craft and story, sure Martin is the better writer. He also has an original vibe to his stories, which Kay somewhat lacks for having pulled most of them from a history book and changed the names. That being said, Kay actually finishes his fucking stories. GRRM owes me nothing, and can finish his books any way that he pleases, but in the same sense i owe him nothing as well. Years of wait has swept away my interest, and it will likely be months before i get Dance.

-Jordan was good, but his betrayal of females and a story that never ends lost me as a reader. There was so much potential in that series, but ultimately what drove me away was what i said before. His betrayal of women is easily the worst in modern fiction.

- Hobb just never stuck with me.

I should probably mention, however, that i am currently heavily influenced by Under Heaven. It was easily one of my favorite books of the last decade. Just well put together and interesting, and a nice step away from old england or its kissing cousins.

So if I've read Lions and Tigana and wanted to read another, what would most recommend? My impression is either Under Heaven or Song for Arbonne, but I just thought I'd ask.

Read Song for Arbonne first, because if you go for Under Heaven, i think Song will come off as a disappointment.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

ETA - I don't feel sorry for Dianora, I think she's either a twat or has stockholm syndrome, but I think Kay wants me to regard her situation as some tragically romantic heart rending dillema....

Exactly. What bothered me was Kay wanting us to regard her in a certain way. That's the distinct impression I got as well, and it made all the difference to me. Writing "gray" characters and leaving the moral valuation up to the reader can be enormously enjoyable. ASOIAF demonstrates an absolute mastery of that, with people taking opposite positions on key characters like Ned, Jaime, Sandor Clegane, Catelyn, etc. Martin left that up to us. Kay didn't do that nearly as well, which may be a function of his propensity for describing characters rather than showing us their actions/thoughts more neutrally and letting us judge their characters for ourselves.

In any case, I got a very strong sense in Tigana that Kay was giving us his moral valuation of the characters, and because I didn't agree with him, I found that extremely off-putting.

[Dragonsworn]

I'm pretty okay with the fact that a lot of people on here don't like GGK. That's fine, no writer is going to please everyone. Personally, I hated the most recent Dresden files book. But there were plenty who love it. So I don't think anyone is wrong for not particularly liking a writer, even if he were (and I'm not saying GGK is ... though probably up there) my favorite writer. To each his own.

The only criticism of GGK I don't understand coming from GRRM fans is when people complain about how GGK "tells" too much when it comes to characters, specifically how badass they may or may not be. Especially considering the fact that GRRM does A LOT of telling. Jaime Lannister was suppose to be one of the best swordsman (if not the best) in at least Westeros. But we only knew that from GRRM telling us that. The only time we actually saw Jaime sword fight with his sword hand he wasn't even considered to be at his physical best and was in chains. Most of the warriors considered to be the biggest badasses in ASOIAF we never (or rarely) actually see fight.

So I don't understand how you get on GGK's case for telling, when GRRM does the same thing? And for the record, I don't mind this kind of telling at all.

[Datepalm]

The only criticism of GGK I don't understand coming from GRRM fans is when people complain about how GGK "tells" too much when it comes to characters, specifically how badass they may or may not be. Especially considering the fact that GRRM does A LOT of telling. Jaime Lannister was suppose to be one of the best swordsman (if not the best) in at least Westeros. But we only knew that from GRRM telling us that. The only time we actually saw Jaime sword fight with his sword hand he wasn't even considered to be at his physical best and was in chains. Most of the warriors considered to be the biggest badasses in ASOIAF we never (or rarely) actually see fight.

Thing is, we don't actually know that Jaime is all that basadd- we hear about it from other characters. Its his in-world reputation, whenever we hear any superlatives about how good he is, or how honorable Ned is, or whatever, it's from the POV of someone, and it;s consistent to that POV. Some people think Ned is scum. Some people wonder if Jaime really is all that good, etc.

[Datepalm]

Yeah - In my opinion, if it's coming through the mindset of other characters then it's more showing than telling. It's one thing to have a scene described in which Jaime shows off his skills, but it's similar to me to hear others characters speak of or think about his skill. I don't think that is any kind of weakness on the author's part.

I don't think GGK sticks things in by narratorial-fiat all that much, tbh - its not like he goes "Then Devan ran into Alessan, who was the coolest guy in the whole world." He does work from POV's, he just doesn't carry them through and he expects us to 'trust them' in a way GRRM doesn't. It's "Devan ran into Alessan, and realized that he thought he was the coolest guy in the world," but we never see Alessan do anything to justify that opinion, NOR do I ever get a sense that maybe the slavish hero worship on Devan's part is indicative of his own loneliness or lack of a father figure or whatever and his opinions to be taken with a grain of salt. I find the latter more annoying actually, the former - a narrator with opinions - has a kind of fun appeal sometimes. The latter is just cheating.