Does George RR Martin hate women?

[dolorouseddwasright]

Again - it's odd that two hot women have first-person lesbian encounters, and none of the men do. I'm not surprised. It's just clear that it's one of his things.

I would be very interested to see how George would write a first-person lesbian encounter between two men. :)

Sorry, I am a bit of a smart-*ss, as people keep telling me.

[Ran]

Alexia,

the pages of dwarf sex we got treated to

I know you've got this whole thing about Tyrion, but ... it's vastly different. Tyrion was into what he was doing. Cersei was absolutely not. "It was no good" she says.

the fat pink mast

Samwell was into it. It wasn't really erotic though, was it? More a funny-embarassing-cute.

or the incest

Well, it's true, Jaime and Cersei were really into it. It was presented as erotic. Cersei and Taena was not.

has explicitly said he has no intention of writing male.

Where? The only thing I can distinctly remember is his saying that he had no current plans for it (current being at the time he was asked), but that's hardly the same thing as "no intention", or saying he's not doing it because he couldn't "write it".

Source, please; if you can't find it, I really think it's inappropriate to present this as a fact.

[Alexia]

With pleasure:

So Spake Martin

It looks like the Jaime/Loras shippers are out-of-luck, as are those wishing for an explicit flashback to Renly and Loras in bed. Caress of Cersei was entertaining throughout. She said "We've had descriptions of Tyrion's bulbous purple head, and Sam's fat pink mast, when are we going to get a detailed description of Rhaegar's cock?" George laughed all such suggestions off, good-naturedly but you could tell he found the idea dubious at best.

[The SmilingKnight]

) and he wrote two such scenes and has explicitly said he has no intention of writing male.

My favorite writer.

Why is it disgusting and out of character for Jon but not for Dany?

Since Jon is not gay or bisexual and dany is, at least slightly bisexual.

Are you saying there is something wrong with Jon being bisexual?

Yep.

And there is nothing wrong with Dany being bisexual, if she was.

She doesn't even like the sex, and she never shows any signs of bisexuality.

I wouldnt agree she doesnt like the sex at all. Making love with other woman should be a pretty good sign of bisexuality.

She admires a number of men but I don't recall her ever looking at any women in a sexual way, until she suddenly starts having sex with one!

It wasnt that sudden at all.

I think she noticed the looks of her handmaidens while they massaged her and oiled her etc while drogo was still alive.

But youre right, she definitely needs to start noticing other babes more... probably all the stress from Astapor and Mereen. Im sure she will rectify that in Westeros.

hmmm... Sansa and Dany,...

[Alexia]

I know you've got this whole thing about Tyrion, but ... it's vastly different. Tyrion was into what he was doing. Cersei was absolutely not. "It was no good" she says.

What thing about Tyrion? That I don't find his sex scenes sexy?

And I thought we were talking about titillating to the reader and/or author; at least that's what I meant when I said I thought it was supposed to be titillating (it obviously wasn't titillating for Cersei). My comparisons were all things that I thought were on an even keel in terms of sexual creepiness.

[jurble]

OP needs to introduce her friend to Bakker, and his Second Apocalypse series.

But the Middle Ages were a pretty sexist time period. Hell, a huge chunk of the world is still incredibly sexist. D&D campaign settings where women are equal to men as soldiers, and wizards and all that good stuff are cool and all, but George is trying to go for a realistic Medieval society in a Fantasy setting. In fact, since we're dealing with nobility, the women are severely restricted. Peasant and lower class women would have had degrees of freedom, but noble women were just chattel to secure alliances.

[Rakka]

ETA: Rakka, you didn't pick up on the whole Renly/Loras thing? Really??? Even after Jaime and Oberyn's comments???

Pretty much I didn't pick it up because of those comments. They felt more like inventing an easily mockable fault and using it to degrade people in an extremely immature way. Probably ties with the general "everyone's straight" feeling I got from the series, since if being gay/bi was presented more normally then I probably would have picked up that these two guys are a pair.

Then again, that's the sort of reader I am. I pretty much go with the flow and get the ambience. Said thing X and seen thing Y referring to background blot Z, not so much. The most hated part of Finnish courses was always the "analyze this short story" because I'm not bloody interested in coming up with 3 layers of metaphore for a slice of drying cheese.

[alguien]

Alexia,

With pleasure:

So Spake Martin

I don't think this is explicitly stating anything. I certainly don't take away that he will never write a guy-on-guy scene. This to me just sounds like he's saying if it doesn't suit the story (neither of those would scenarios would, IMO) then he won't.

About what I expected.

[raisin]

OP needs to introduce her friend to Bakker, and his Second Apocalypse series.

But the Middle Ages were a pretty sexist time period. Hell, a huge chunk of the world is still incredibly sexist. D&D campaign settings where women are equal to men as soldiers, and wizards and all that good stuff are cool and all, but George is trying to go for a realistic Medieval society in a Fantasy setting. In fact, since we're dealing with nobility, the women are severely restricted. Peasant and lower class women would have had degrees of freedom, but noble women were just chattel to secure alliances.

It's not really fair to blame this on the Middle Ages. This is fantasy. They didn't actually have dragons or magic, but he's chosen to include those elements. And for all this supposed stigma for being homosexual, that doesn't appear to be something he included in Westeros. (People seemed to acknowledge it, and while they weren't about to let Renly and Loras marry, they weren't about to lynch them either.)

He did make the decision to include the misogyny. He could have done without it, it's fantasy, so it's ultimately his call. I'm personally a little grateful for it, since I find that an interesting obstacle for the female characters (the social restrictions are the same reason I really enjoy Austen), but they're there because Martin decided they should be. It's not totally out of left field to hold him accountable.

[alguien]

Pretty much I didn't pick it up because of those comments. They felt more like inventing an easily mockable fault and using it to degrade people in an extremely immature way. Probably ties with the general "everyone's straight" feeling I got from the series, since if being gay/bi was presented more normally then I probably would have picked up that these two guys are a pair.

Then again, that's the sort of reader I am. I pretty much go with the flow and get the ambience. Said thing X and seen thing Y referring to background blot Z, not so much. The most hated part of Finnish courses was always the "analyze this short story" because I'm not bloody interested in coming up with 3 layers of metaphore for a slice of drying cheese.

Ah. Even aside from Stannis, Oberyn, and Jaime's quips, I thought it was pretty obvious given the way Loras went into a homicidal rage at Renly's death, killing three of his sworn brothers. His reverence for Renly, his "sun has set" love comments, his talking about how they... prayed together the night before his death. Perhaps Finnish doesn't have the same cultural connotations, but the name Knight of Flowers or the Rainbow Guard are pretty dead giveaways.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Essentially the only real argument for gay scenes in ASOIAF is 'there were lesbian scenes, its only fair'. Sorry, but thats not good enough. If it furthers the plot or character development, I'm sure you guys will get your wish (which itself is a little odd. There's plenty of fiction out there with gay sex/relationships, probably written better than anything by George. Go read that if your desperate).

He did make the decision to include the misogyny. He could have done without it, it's fantasy, so it's ultimately his call. I'm personally a little grateful for it, since I find that an interesting obstacle for the female characters (the social restrictions are the same reason I really enjoy Austen), but they're there because Martin decided they should be. It's not totally out of left field to hold him accountable.

The world of ASOIAF is all about believability. It is ridiculous to have women and men at an even keel in the medieval time period. Would hurt the books imo.

[schrecklich]

With pleasure:

So Spake Martin

He's not planning on doing a Renly/Loras flashback. Currently, Renly is dead and Loras does not have a POV so that's not too surprising. I don't draw from that link that GRRM couldn't write a gay sex scene involving two other characters though. Am I reading it wrong?

[Artas]

Being reltively tolerant to homosexuals is reltively a new thing in our own civilization.

True. That never stopped gays from getting it on, though. *Especially* not in an all-male environment.

Why is it disgusting and out of character for Jon but not for Dany?

Because gay sex is icky?

My favorite writer.

Why? Because gay sex is icky?

The series isn't over. We might get some hot man on man action! And it doesn't have to be random. Like someone mentioned, a flashback of Loras and Renly?

I have high hopes for Quentyn Martell. :D

[Ran]

Yeah, what Nadie said. People were basically asking for flashbacks for non-POV characters (some of them dead!), of course he was good-natured and amused, but not falling for it. It'd be ridiculous, and obviously I think people who discussed it with him knew it was all in silly fun.

So, still looking for a quote where GRRM actually writes off ever writing about a male homosexual encounter, or where he says he doesn't write them because he doesn't think he could do it well.

[raisin]

Essentially the only real argument for gay scenes in ASOIAF is 'there were lesbian scenes, its only fair'. Sorry, but thats not good enough. If it furthers the plot or character development, I'm sure you guys will get your wish (which itself is a little odd. There's plenty of fiction out there with gay sex/relationships, probably written better than anything by George. Go read that if your desperate).

Well, I won't deny the lesbian scenes were character development, but they weren't really character development until they happened. So I've taken the argument presented (particularly with regards to the Night Watch) to mean it could develop or shape our impression of a character or organization if it occurred.

I don't think anyone's mentioned wanting some one-off gay sex scene that is never spoken of again and doesn't do anything whatsoever for the plot or the characters involved.

The world of ASOIAF is all about believability. It is ridiculous to have women and men at an even keel in the medieval time period. Would hurt the books imo.

I know. I agree. But it's still a choice he made to source from that time period, and choose that particular element. I give him credit for it, but can understand why some people might hold it against him.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Well, I won't deny the lesbian scenes were character development, but they weren't really character development until they happened. So I've taken the argument presented (particularly with regards to the Night Watch) to mean it could develop or shape our impression of a character or organization if it occurred.

I don't think anyone's mentioned wanting some one-off gay sex scene that is never spoken of again and doesn't do anything whatsoever for the plot or the characters involved.

Sure. And if George thinks thats a direction he wants to take a character, then he will. Its as simple as that really. He knows his story.

[Rakka]

Ah. Even aside from Stannis, Oberyn, and Jaime's quips, I thought it was pretty obvious given the way Loras went into a homicidal rage at Renly's death, killing three of his sworn brothers. His reverence for Renly, his "sun has set" love comments, his talking about how they... prayed together the night before his death. Perhaps Finnish doesn't have the same cultural connotations, but the name Knight of Flowers or the Rainbow Guard are pretty dead giveaways.

Well, there were those. But Loras didn't get screentime until fairly late and by the time AFFC was translated I think I already was at least reading the forums. And considering that rainbows were used in e.g. some medieval peasant revolts that definately had nothing to do with gay pride I figured that Martin wasn't using the modern day symbolism, moreso since it also symbolized the Seven.

[The SmilingKnight]

Ah. Even aside from Stannis, Oberyn, and Jaime's quips, I thought it was pretty obvious given the way Loras went into a homicidal rage at Renly's death, killing three of his sworn brothers. His reverence for Renly, his "sun has set" love comments, his talking about how they... prayed together the night before his death. Perhaps Finnish doesn't have the same cultural connotations, but the name Knight of Flowers or the Rainbow Guard are pretty dead giveaways.

I missed it completely too.

i was just so busy with all the other things happening that it flew over my head completely.

I might have noticed the "rainbow guard" but i thought it was just those silly Highgardeners or some such.

And all the Loras words or "raageee!" (with high C) i thought were nothing more then friendship.

I was just too busy with what the real Men were doing at the time. You know .. Jaime, Hound etc.

True. That never stopped gays from getting it on, though. *Especially* not in an all-male environment.

The Wall isnt an all male enviroment really. There are prostitutes available nearby, wildlings beyond the wall and brothers are relatively free to travel around the wall, unlike regular prison where neither is commonly available.

Tha danger of wildlings and often ranging excursions keep the men busy and give them some sense of reason in existence which you dont have in a prison - which greatly attributes to violence and rapes which are the most common form of "homosexual" relations in prisons.

Because gay sex is icky?

Of course it is.

[Artas]

The Wall isnt an all male enviroment really. There are prostitutes available nearby, wildlings beyond the wall and brothers are relatively free to travel around the wall, unlike regular prison where neither is commonly available.

Tha danger of wildlings and often ranging excursions keep the men busy and give them some sense of reason in existence which you dont have in a prison - which greatly attributes to violence and rapes which are the most common form of "homosexual" relations in prisons.

Actually, I was thinking more of medieval monasteries and the like.

[The SmilingKnight]

Im pretty sure those that were doing it kept it a secret as much as possible and that those cases were rare on account of it being a deadly sin in addition to being unacceptable in real life, at least on the surface of things.