Should Palestine unilaterally declare independence?

[WhiteHaven]

Some interesting stuff on the recent thing with the Biden and just how pissed the current Administration is with it:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1156467.html

If the US is so pissed, why don't they just freeze the military aid for Israel? According to "Der Spiegel" that's 2,5 billion US Dollars a year. Seems like even G.W Bush froze some of the credit guarantees when Israel started building their wall.

[Stalker]

If the US is so pissed, why don't they just freeze the military aid for Israel? According to "Der Spiegel" that's 2,5 billion US Dollars a year. Seems like even G.W Bush froze some of the credit guarantees when Israel started building their wall.

Being 'pissed off' and 'not wanting to be reelected' are two different things.

[Werthead]

I think the situation is more that the USA has a number of important geopolitical fingers in the region, directly in Afghanistan and Iraq and also through allies such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey and friendly states like Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan and the UAE. The USA has always had a problem in maintaining close ties with these nations whilst backing Israel to the hilt, and in the past has used its status as a bridge between Arab countries and Israel to broker peace talks and encourage engagement in the region, and to some extent has delivered through such initiatives as the Camp David peace talks, the Road Map, their active engagement with the Saudi peace plan and so on. In effect, whilst the USA's backing of Israel no matter what has been frustrating for other countries in the region, it has also enabled them to exert influence on Israel through their common ally, the USA.

The problem for the US now is that Israel is simply ignoring it, and the other countries in the region are looking at Obama and saying, "Well, what are you going to do to sort this out?" And Obama is doing a rabbit in the headlights thing of not being able to do very much at all. If he comes down hard on Israel and severs military aid and stands aside from vetoing UN security council resolutions aimed at Israel, then he will not be reelected, simple as that. And as a result the other countries in the region are seeing the USA's ability to influence Israel waning, and have less respect for them as a result.

It's hard to see exactly what Obama's administration can do. Israel would have to do something pretty heinous, like starting ethnically cleansing the Territories, for American public opinion to shift enough to allow more severe action to be taken. Even if Israel carries out its threat to directly attack Iran whilst negotiations are still ongoing, I suspect that wouldn't be enough for Obama to change the USA's relationship with Israel substantially.

[Werthead]

Netanyahu's brother-in-law calls Obama anti-Semitic.

No word on if Obama replied, "Yeah, and so's your mother."

[Shryke]

Can anyone tell me how America benefits from this relationship? I realize that we may have decided that we care about Israel, and that's fine. But what benefit do we get?

I realize that "they're our allies in the region."

But what does that do for us? I know that it makes the rest of the region hate us. And that's about all I know. What am I missing?

You don't.

However, distancing yourself is politically non-viable due to several factors, including crazy christians, people who hate "them ay-rabs" and the various Jewish lobbying groups.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Should Obama's administration turn his back to Israel- it will not alleviate America's status in the region.

Quite the contrary. Its friends and allies, especially the moderate Muslim countries in the gulf, will read it as a sign of America's fickleness and will trust her LESS.

They will see the US as an untrustworthy ally and look elsewhere for protection- maybe Russia or China- or they might even turn to their hated neighbor- the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Some of them are already doing just that, though not explicitly.

Unlike this board- Obama and his staff know that full well and so will never give the boot to Israel. So dream on, babies.

[Yoadm]

Can anyone tell me how America benefits from this relationship? I realize that we may have decided that we care about Israel, and that's fine. But what benefit do we get?

I realize that "they're our allies in the region."

But what does that do for us? I know that it makes the rest of the region hate us. And that's about all I know. What am I missing?

* Since 1967,Israel has given to the Pentagon Soviet military equipment captured in conflicts with Soviet-supported Arab countries, providing important data. Israel gave the US a full squadron of MiG-21s which was called the Top Gun squadron and used by the U.S. Air Force and Navy for training purposes.

* In 1970, Israel forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army from US-ally Jordan while the U.S. was involved militarily in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, helping to prevent the collapse of a pro-American government and the installation of a pro-Soviet regime.

* In the 1973 War, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian armies. Israel shared captured Soviet equipment with the US. Israel emerged the one reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned and where the U.S. has friendly port facilities, saving the US billions of dollars.

* In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft systems in Lebanon that were considered impenetrable by American weapons. Israel shared with the US insights from the conflict, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

* Senator Daniel Inouye has stated that Israeli data on the Soviet military has saved the U.S. billions of dollars and that the contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America exceeds information provided by all NATO countries combined.

* In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, stalling Saddam Husseins nuclear capabilities and allowing the U.S. to engage in conventional warfare with Iraq.

* Israel has provided critical analysis of the F16 to General Dynamics that resulted in 600 improvements, including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

* In the Gulf War, Israel provided the US with key intelligence, air cover for military cargo and had IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue American pilots.

* The US military benefited from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

* Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for Allied forces through Iraqi minefields.

* Mobile bridges flown directly from Israel to Saudi Arabia were used by the U.S. Marine Corps

* Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhanced the range of F15 aircraft used in the Gulf War.

* An Israeli-produced targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

* Israel manufactured the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

* Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

* A low-altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

* Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sandbags.

* Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

* General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, has stated that Israel is worth five CIAs.

* Israel shares with the US important experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs.

* In Iraq, Israeli advisers have trained US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders.

* The IDF sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and Israeli military consultants have also visited Iraq.

* The US Army also travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas. The IDF regularly shared its experience in the West Bank and Gaza with the US armed forces. The Pentagon regularly asked the IDF to debrief on operations similar to those engaged in by US military forces.

* Joint air force exercises, such as the Juniper Cobra, had taken place between Israeli and the American Patriot artillery in the Negev and radar units from the U.S. Sixth Fleet. Noble Dina, an anti-submarine warfare exercise, were executed with the combined efforts of the Israel Navy and the Sixth Fleet.

* American soldiers were in Israel prior to the Iraq war to work with anti-missile defenses, both the U.S.-made Patriot and the Arrow, developed by both Israel and the U.S.

* The U.S. sailed an aircraft carrier, the Harry Truman, into the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft allowed U.S. planes to reach Iraqi targets by flying over Israeli and Jordanian territory. Israel has permitted the use of its air zones.

* Israel has been sharing with the US its experience in combating Palestinian terrorism, which has been helpful in the US's war in Afghanistan. The US military benefits from Israels tactics against suicide bombers, car bombs and improvised explosive devices.

* Most of the US military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States, which benefits US military contractors.

* In contrast to US commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and numerous other countries in which the US has over 100 military bases, the US has no military bases in Israel.

* Former Secretary of State and NATO forces Commander Alexander Haig has said that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is "the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security"

[gladius]

Israel carries out its threat to directly attack Iran

They would do so only under extreme USA pressure ....

[Yoadm]

Yoadm, that's quite a list.

Lark - Even if what you say is true, would you concede that there's another side to it? You're talking about the governments of those countries, not the populace. The populace hates Israel in many cases and hates their government's coziness with the US. And al-Qaeda uses our relationship w/ Israel as a recruiting tool.

Our own general just openly conceded that Israeli actions are endangering the US troops in the region.

I'm not anti-Israel. I just don't understand why it seems like we're their bitch. If someone wanted to make a list like Yoadm's of the things we do for them, I can't imagine how long it would be, and the stuff in it would be more than providing some night-vision goggles.

You conveniently took one small example from the list, and generalized on it. Many of the rest have benefitted the US in the billions (sometimes tens of billions). Naturally, the US aid to Israel is much bigger, but my point is that this is not a one-way street. Remember, one of the main reasons the US aids Israel is that 80% of the aid can only be used to purchase american arms, and thus the money returns to the US market and subsidizes its arms industries. Further, it is hardly Israel's bitch, and in most cases, the opposite is correct.

[Yoadm]

This is what I'm questioning. It seems that Israel would be America's bitch to the point that they would never do what they're doing at the moment. So it's confusing to me.

It's more complicated than that. In the end, the US has the final word on issues critical to it, not Israel. In 1973, after Israel was attacked on two fronts and on the verge of destruction, it's army rebounded. In the west, Israeli divisions cut through Egyptian lines, crossed the Suez Canal, and surrounded Egypt's southern armies, and were on the way to push north and surround the west. Israel was on the verge of a historic victory with few equals, which would have eliminated its western (Egyptian) threat for a long time. The US administration, believing that an Egyptian defeat was bad for its national interests, told Israel in no uncertain terms, that not only are they not allowed to destroy the Egyptian 3rd army, but if they do not allow aid to be sent to the Egyptian forces (which were surrounded), the US would go as far as protect them itself, and actively engage Israel's military to prevent their defeat. Israel, stunned by this move and furious, had no choice. This is just one (major) example.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Triskele

The Arab populace doesn't call the shots- their rulers do, so I'm not sure what it is I have to concede to.

And in any case, of course they would rejoice if America would cut its ties with the Zionist entity... but the message would still be that America is a betrayer of long time allies and can't be trusted.

Loyalty is highly esteemed in Arabian cultures and their scholars will surely remind them- after the rejoicing has died down- of the words of the classic Muslim historian, Ibn Hazm, from Cordoba, as a warning-

The measure of prudence and resolution is to know a friend from an enemy; the height of stupidity and weakness is not to know an enemy from a friend.

Do not surrender your enemy to oppression, nor oppress him yourself. In this respect treat enemy and friend alike. But be on your guard against him, and beware lest you befriend and advance him, for this is the act of a fool. He who befriends and advances friend and foe alike will only arouse distaste for his friendship and contempt for his enmity. He will earn the scorn of his enemy, and facilitate his hostile designs; he will lose his friend who will join the ranks of his enemies.

The height of goodness is that you should neither oppress your enemy nor abandon him to oppression. To treat him as friend is the mark of a fool whose end is near.

The height of evil is that your should oppress your friend. Even to estrange him is the act of a man who has no sense, for whom misfortune is predestined.

Magnanimity is not to befriend the enemy, but to spare them, and to remain on your guard against them.

And as bright and talented as General Petraeus is, I believe he's dead wrong on this one.

There are other high ranking officers, bright and talented, with a completely different view:

[Werthead]

I must admit, the extreme popularity of support for Israel in the USA is something that's always been a bit difficult to explain. Historically, it wasn't always the case and there were times as recently as the 1960s when the two countries were not that close, defeating the usual argument of it being American guilt over not doing more to hinder the Holocaust (Allied intelligence knew about it as early as 1943 and there were proposals to bomb the death camps that were turned down for fear of exposing intelligence resources). The USA was vehemently opposed to the UK-French-Israeli alliance over the Suez crisis, for example.

Probably the best explanation is that by supporting Israel, America was opposing the Soviet-backed Arab countries during the Cold War, allowing them to test military technologies in a proxy conflict without getting into a direct shooting war with the USSR. The Jewish lobby in the USA has always been influential and important, and by the time the Cold War ended US support for Israel had become almost automatic. There is also strong support for Israel amongst the fundamentalist Christian movement in the USA, which is interestingly paradoxical given the whole, "Jesus wasn't the son of God," attitude, not to mention general public opinion favouring the underdog (although Israel has not been really the underdog in the region since after the 1973 war). Plus Americans have a strong suspicion of Iran ever since the Revolution and the hostage crisis, and Iran has always been implacably opposed to Israel.

Can anyone tell me how America benefits from this relationship? I realize that we may have decided that we care about Israel, and that's fine. But what benefit do we get?

I realize that "they're our allies in the region."

But what does that do for us? I know that it makes the rest of the region hate us. And that's about all I know. What am I missing?

Yoadm's list is pretty thorough and accurate. It is worth reiterating that Israel isn't America's only ally in the region. Turkey is arguably even more closely militarily allied to the USA (as part of NATO), whilst in geopolitical (and oil) terms the friendship of Saudi Arabia is also valued very highly. The UAE, Jordan, Egypt and now Iraq also all have important ties to the US, whilst Pakistan is regarded as a (sometimes somewhat unreliable) key ally. The views on the street in all these countries towards the USA-Israeli relationship versus their own government's with the West is somewhat less positive, but varies greatly by country.

They would do so only under extreme USA pressure ....

The extreme American pressure is for Israel not to attack Iran as it would seriously fan the flames of anti-American, anti-Israeli feelings in the Middle East and be the greatest recruitment poster Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda and the Taliban could ask for. The current Israeli government's hostility towards Iran is pretty marked, and if Iran does move unambiguously towards acquiring a bomb I have no doubt Israel will attack regardless of the USA's posture at the time. Israel does believe a nuclear Iran (rightly or wrongly) would be a threat to its very existence, after all.

And in any case, of course they would rejoice if America would cut its ties with the Zionist entity... but the message would still be that America is a betrayer of long time allies and can't be trusted.

That does work both ways, though. If Israel 'betrays' the USA and the USA cuts its ties in response, surely that would be regarded more positively? As I said though, there is no way US public opinion would agree with such a move unless Israel did something extremely heinous in an unambiguously unprovoked manner.

[Shryke]

Should Obama's administration turn his back to Israel- it will not alleviate America's status in the region.

Quite the contrary. Its friends and allies, especially the moderate Muslim countries in the gulf, will read it as a sign of America's fickleness and will trust her LESS.

They will see the US as an untrustworthy ally and look elsewhere for protection- maybe Russia or China- or they might even turn to their hated neighbor- the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Some of them are already doing just that, though not explicitly.

Unlike this board- Obama and his staff know that full well and so will never give the boot to Israel. So dream on, babies.

:rofl:

Yeah, sure.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Insightful as ever

(*yawn*)

[Shryke]

I must admit, the extreme popularity of support for Israel in the USA is something that's always been a bit difficult to explain. Historically, it wasn't always the case and there were times as recently as the 1960s when the two countries were not that close, defeating the usual argument of it being American guilt over not doing more to hinder the Holocaust (Allied intelligence knew about it as early as 1943 and there were proposals to bomb the death camps that were turned down for fear of exposing intelligence resources). The USA was vehemently opposed to the UK-French-Israeli alliance over the Suez crisis, for example.

Probably the best explanation is that by supporting Israel, America was opposing the Soviet-backed Arab countries during the Cold War, allowing them to test military technologies in a proxy conflict without getting into a direct shooting war with the USSR. The Jewish lobby in the USA has always been influential and important, and by the time the Cold War ended US support for Israel had become almost automatic. There is also strong support for Israel amongst the fundamentalist Christian movement in the USA, which is interestingly paradoxical given the whole, "Jesus wasn't the son of God," attitude, not to mention general public opinion favouring the underdog (although Israel has not been really the underdog in the region since after the 1973 war). Plus Americans have a strong suspicion of Iran ever since the Revolution and the hostage crisis, and Iran has always been implacably opposed to Israel.

The Fundamentalist Christian part of the support for Israel comes alot from the whole "Apocalypse requires Jews in Israel" thing.

It also doesn't hurt that the type of people who believe in that shit have a very large intersection with the "don't trust them brown people" types.

But largely, continued support for Israel is political. It's simply not politically viable in the US for a national candidate to be critical of Israel beyond a few "We're slightly miffed, but it's cool, we still love you".

[Shryke]

Insightful as ever

(*yawn*)

Dude, your entire premise is founded on nothing but some fantasy that they will think the US is "fickle" if they drop support for Israel.

I mean seriously, this is your argument? It's fucking laughable.

There's no proof. There's not even the hint of a hint of this being anything but your own fucking delusion.

[Lark the Sisterman]

That does work both ways, though. If Israel 'betrays' the USA and the USA cuts its ties in response, surely that would be regarded more positively?

How can Israel betray the US? (and why?)

Surely the little satan is much more dependent on the big satan than the other way around?

As I said though, there is no way US public opinion would agree with such a move unless Israel did something extremely heinous in an unambiguously unprovoked manner.

You don't believe that Israel own public would raise a cry if heinous policies were executed?

And I didn't know Turkey was part of NATO. Are you sure about that? (They aren't even considered for the EU, though they wanted that more than anything till they realized they had no chance)

[ljkeane]

The USA was vehemently opposed to the UK-French-Israeli alliance over the Suez crisis, for example.

To be fair I don't think that the Israeli part of that alliance was the major concern of the US.

[Shryke]

How can Israel betray the US? (and why?)

You don't believe that Israel own public would raise a cry if heinous policies were executed?

They seem to have quite the stomach for certain types of policies many would describe as "heinous". (Though to be fair, the US public looks the other way on some fairly heinous shit too)

As for how they can betray the US? Look at the shit happening right now.

If Israel can't be trusted to not do anything really crazy the US doesn't want them to do, they become an increasing liability to US interests in the area (which extend way beyond Israel).

And I didn't know Turkey was part of NATO. Are you sure about that? (They aren't even considered for the EU, though they wanted that more than anything till they realized they had no chance)

I can't remember whether they are an actual part of NATO or just a NATO "ally" or something.

Regardless, the US uses (and needs) Turkey as a stop-over spot for it's air power.

Yet another eloquent (not to mention- insightful) rebuttal.

Your logic machine is devastating everything in its path.

:lol:

So you've got nothing. Just like I thought.

Come back when you've got an argument instead of useless posts.

[Werthead]

Surely the little satan is much more dependent on the big satan than the other way around?

If Israel attempted any kind of forced movement of population out of the Occupied Territories, that might be considered heinous enough to erode public goodwill for Israel in the US. However, it is correct this would also likely topple the Israeli government as well, if there weren't extreme extenuating circumstances.

And I didn't know Turkey was part of NATO. Are you sure about that? (They aren't even considered for the EU, though they wanted that more than anything till they realized they had no chance)

Turkey joined NATO as a full member in 1952. It was such a trusted member of NATO that the USA stationed ballistic missiles there, which is sometimes regarded as the trigger for the Cuban Missile Crisis (Russia removed its missiles from Cuba in return for America withdrawing its missiles from Turkey to end the crisis). Turkey's membership criteria of NATO was that it had to be close enough to the USSR and Russian interests in the Middle East to seriously screw them over in the event of WWIII, not its human rights abuses, which is the principle concern of the EU. Hell, NATO pretty much ignored Turkey's invasion of Cyprus in 1974, as it was more important to keep Turkey on-board to counter Soviet moves in the Middle East.

In fact, Turkey has the second-largest military forces in NATO (with more than a million troops in its military), has nukes on its soil and a major NATO airbase close to the Syrian border. Turkey has also enjoyed close ties with Israel, being the first Muslim-majority country in the world to recognise Israel in 1949, although the two countries have had cooler relations more recently due to Turkey's disapproval of the Gazan blockade. But Turkey is still considered to be Israel's closest ally after the US, with the two countries selling one another military technologies and their intelligence agencies cooperating on various issues.

In fact, almost unbelievably, Turkey has been a far more important and reliable member of NATO than France, which basically withdrew from the alliance (in favour of an integrated command structure and an alliance with the alliance, so to speak) in the 1960s when NATO refused to help its war against Algerian nationalists, and only recently returned to full membership status.