Should Palestine unilaterally declare independence?

[Shryke]

Probably because they are spread out across the territory of a bunch of existing states and have been for ages upon ages now.

It's like wondering where the international support is for Basques or the Quebecois.

[jurble]

Are you guys serious? AFAIK the Kurds are, generally speaking, despised rather than feared.

The average Arab/Turk/Persian doesn't even know that Saladin was a Kurd.

'twas not serious at all.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Probably because they are spread out across the territory of a bunch of existing states and have been for ages upon ages now.

It's like wondering where the international support is for Basques or the Quebecois.

You missed my point- the Basques and certainly the Quebecois don't suffer such human rights abuse.

[WhiteHaven]

You missed my point- the Basques and certainly the Quebecois don't suffer such human rights abuse.

Sorry, but everytime I read this I want to punch someone. Seriously, the Turkish governements fucked up a lot in the past and do so now. But they also did some good things. I am, by all means, no fan of this current Governement and their ideology but, admitted, they did one or two good things for the Kurds and for us, but also a lot of bad things.

Yesterday, was this feast, called Nervuz. Normally, every year there were riots but not this year. You know why? Because, they are allowed to learn their own languages now in school. They are allowed to use their own languages in governement buildings, they have their own TV channels, radio stations and so on. However, that'S not enough. Most of them want their own country, and I seriously hope that this is not going to happen. Not after what they did to my family.

Sure, it took some time to grant them these rights...but. Uh. I have to control my anger right now. I have lost two cousins due to their terroists attacks. They were both teachers. They volunteered to work in the East. (No one wants to work there). Yeah, they wanted to teach Kurdish children and were shot for that by Kurdish terrorists. Sorry, if the Kurds want to fight for their rights with guns then I see no other way than responding with more Guns. Maybe I am irrational but I knew both of them and I loved my cousins. They are dead and so are more than 25000 other Turkish civilians. Sure, the families of those will LOVE the Kurds and their violent movement for their own rights.

You are sitting in your fucking chair and telling me something about human rights? Really? You have no fucking idea what is going on there. So maybe you should just shut the fuck up. What about that?

[Galactus]

Without backing from any external power, it's not much of a threat. I really think you guys are blowing it out of proportions. Is there any major action going on right now? Can you link me to news snippets/articles about the situation?

And while we're at it, can you explain to me why you don't support the Kurds' right for a state of their own?

It's not a "threat" as much as it is a serious issue. And remember that they all do have external enemies.

[Galactus]

Probably because they are spread out across the territory of a bunch of existing states and have been for ages upon ages now.

It's like wondering where the international support is for Basques or the Quebecois.

Not to mention that all of these different states belong to slightly different power-blocs, and thus their allies have no incentive to help the kurds.

Basically they occupy that small interesting place where they have absolutely no friends at all.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Sorry, but everytime I read this I want to punch someone. Seriously, the Turkish governements fucked up a lot in the past and do so now. But they also did some good things. I am, by all means, no fan of this current Governement and their ideology but, admitted, they did one or two good things for the Kurds and for us, but also a lot of bad things.

Yesterday, was this feast, called Nervuz. Normally, every year there were riots but not this year. You know why? Because, they are allowed to learn their own languages now in school. They are allowed to use their own languages in governement buildings, they have their own TV channels, radio stations and so on. However, that'S not enough. Most of them want their own country, and I seriously hope that this is not going to happen. Not after what they did to my family.

Sure, it took some time to grant them these rights...but. Uh. I have to control my anger right now. I have lost two cousins due to their terroists attacks. They were both teachers. They volunteered to work in the East. (No one wants to work there). Yeah, they wanted to teach Kurdish children and were shot for that by Kurdish terrorists. Sorry, if the Kurds want to fight for their rights with guns then I see no other way than responding with more Guns. Maybe I am irrational but I knew both of them and I loved my cousins. They are dead and so are more than 25000 other Turkish civilians. Sure, the families of those will LOVE the Kurds and their violent movement for their own rights.

You are sitting in your fucking chair and telling me something about human rights? Really? You have no fucking idea what is going on there. So maybe you should just shut the fuck up. What about that?

No, I wont shut up. Sorry. You can put me on ignore but your resounding hypocrisy and double standards will not pass unchallenged.

Go back and read your entire post again, but this time replace 'Kurds' with 'Palestinian' and 'Turks' with 'Israelis'. Like that-

if the Palestinian want to fight for their rights with guns then I see no other way than responding with more Guns.

What's your stance regarding the Goldstone report? Hmm?

That's a very lovely and nice thing for the Turks to allow the Kurds, after years of cultural oppression, to grant them the right to learn their own language and to have their own press. Lovely. But did you know that the Israelis never denied those things to the Pal-Arabs?

It's you who should shut up and hang your head in shame. Hypocrite.

[WhiteHaven]

Haha. You are REALLY comparing the Israel-Palestina conflict with the Turkish-Kurdish conflict?

Dude, seriously. :lmao:

You know that the Kurds had lots of rights in the Ottoman Empire, right? Funny thing that it was a Kurd (Inönü) who started the whole "We have no Kurds in our country thing".

Also...where is the Wall in Turkey? Hm? Ibrahim Tatilses, who is the most sucessful musician in Turkey is Kurdish. So it's not like the people do not like the Kurds. It's just that we don't like the Terrorists. But whatever dude.

Ah. To hell with it. I think I will just continue laughing :lmao:

Edit: Oh and maybe I should add that I do not favor the Hamas and their violent way to fight for their rights. They are only harming their own agenda. So do the Kurds.

[Lark the Sisterman]

The things people find funny these days...

:rolleyes:

The fact that the two are not identical does not mean there aren't similarities.

The wall? Is that the difference? The wall is a fairly recent phenomena, erected only after a decade of relentless suicide attacks. The Palestinian struggle started way before the wall.

I, as well, don't "not like" the Palestinians- only the Jihadists among them.

Your edit is also very revealing- you don't support the Palestinian's armed struggle because it hurts their goal, but the Kurd's armed struggle infuriate you to no end on account of moral reasons.

Well, yes, everyone knows that Kurds guns kill, while Palestinian rifles are prone to jam... (and their rockets are so crude, they only kill Thai foreign workers- but who cares about them)

But I expect nothing less from someone who speak about rights under the Ottoman empire and still manage to keep a straight face, so all is well.

[CelticBrennus]

Basically they occupy that small interesting place where they have absolutely no friends at all.

Actually, its not that small of a place, in fact its rather large. The world is full of tiny gruops that are getting or recently got their heads stomped on that nobody gives a flying rats ass about.

No matter what is happening with the Kurds or Palestinians, its nothing compared to whats happening all the time in huge swathes of Africa, or what has been going on in Chechnya for a decade or more.

[Galactus]

Actually, its not that small of a place, in fact its rather large. The world is full of tiny gruops that are getting or recently got their heads stomped on that nobody gives a flying rats ass about.

No matter what is happening with the Kurds or Palestinians, its nothing compared to whats happening all the time in huge swathes of Africa, or what has been going on in Chechnya for a decade or more.

The Chechnyans have friends. not influential ones, but anyone who dislikes Russia has a reason to support them. The problem with the kurds is that they cross lines. They're enemies of BOTH turks and iranians.

[gladius]

The problem with Chechnya is that all the moderates were either killed or joined the Kadyrov administration. The only ones who still fight are Islamic fundamentalist nutjobs.

[Padraig]

I'm still perplexed about the reasons for the non-existent international support for the Kurds, (the magnitude of the change?- what about human rights?

I wouldn't say there is non-existent support for the Kurds. The Kurds are one of the issues that Turkey has to deal with if it wants to join the EU. And things have improved there somewhat.

As someone mentioned, there are lots of countries with ethnic strife. Israel will always get more attention because of the geopolitical ramifications of its location. That's just the reality.

No surprise that some Kurds there want their own state since they have been treated very badly previously. We can but hope for further improvements.

[Yoadm]

Haha. You are REALLY comparing the Israel-Palestina conflict with the Turkish-Kurdish conflict?

Dude, seriously. :lmao:

You know that the Kurds had lots of rights in the Ottoman Empire, right? Funny thing that it was a Kurd (Inönü) who started the whole "We have no Kurds in our country thing".

Also...where is the Wall in Turkey? Hm? Ibrahim Tatilses, who is the most sucessful musician in Turkey is Kurdish. So it's not like the people do not like the Kurds. It's just that we don't like the Terrorists. But whatever dude.

Ah. To hell with it. I think I will just continue laughing :lmao:

Edit: Oh and maybe I should add that I do not favor the Hamas and their violent way to fight for their rights. They are only harming their own agenda. So do the Kurds.

The Kurds are, infact, worse off than the Palestinians. Turkey has fully annexed the Kurdish lands, is refusing to recognize ANY form of Kurdish autonomy (unlike with the Palestinians, Kurdish autonomy this is never on the table), refuses to even recognize the Kurds are a people, has killed far more kurds than Israel killed Palestinians, is conducting a cultural genocide in the Kurdish areas (does not allow the teaching of Kurdish culture or language), has destroyed thousands of villages, killed far more people. Turkey allso moved thousands of ethnic Turks to Kurdish lands (called settling)..

Indeed, the Turkish/Kurdish situation is different. It is worse. I would equate it more with the occupation of Tibet than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

[WhiteHaven]

The Kurds are, infact, worse off than the Palestinians. Turkey has fully annexed the Kurdish lands, is refusing to recognize ANY form of Kurdish autonomy (unlike with the Palestinians, Kurdish autonomy this is never on the table), refuses to even recognize the Kurds are a people, has killed far more kurds than Israel killed Palestinians, is conducting a cultural genocide in the Kurdish areas (does not allow the teaching of Kurdish culture or language), has destroyed thousands of villages, killed far more people. Turkey allso moved thousands of ethnic Turks to Kurdish lands (called settling)..

Indeed, the Turkish/Kurdish situation is different. It is worse. I would equate it more with the occupation of Tibet than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

You know, that's what I'm talking about. You have no idea about the whole thing, but you have to write down things that just aren't true anymore.

Also the Ottoman Empire did not conquer any Kurdish lands. They just never did, because when the Turks began conquering Turkey, the Kurds were already living under Arab authority.

And anyway how should this Kurdish state thing work? ~ 6 Million of the Kurds in Turkey (Totak ~13 million) live in the West. So, let's say they get their own country. And then? This would result in the mass murder of Kurds in Iran, Turkey, Syria and Iraq. Yeah, that's definitely going to improve the situation of the Kurds.

Oh and Kurdish is being teached in Turkey now, but whatever dude. Feel free to think that all of us a devils, placed on Earth to eat every Christian. Oh and of course, it is our goal to kill every Kurd and their culture. :bang:

[Yoadm]

You know, that's what I'm talking about. You have no idea about the whole thing, but you have to write down things that just aren't true anymore.

You mean like when you try to justify current turkish actions by refering to the Ottoman Empire?

Also the Ottoman Empire did not conquer any Kurdish lands. They just never did, because when the Turks began conquering Turkey, the Kurds were already living under Arab authority.

So, your reasoning is that because the Turks conquered the Kurdish lands from the Arabs (and not the kurds), then they did not occypy the Kurdish areas? Ofcourse they did. Your reasoning sounds alot like Israeli (right wing) claims that the WB is unnocupied because it was conquered from jordan and not by the Palestinians. This is irrelevant. The Kurds were occupied, but in the Ottoman empire, a multicultural empire, they had ethnic rights. In Turkey, they do not or barely have any.

And anyway how should this Kurdish state thing work? ~ 6 Million of the Kurds in Turkey (Totak ~13 million) live in the West. So, let's say they get their own country. And then? This would result in the mass murder of Kurds in Iran, Turkey, Syria and Iraq. Yeah, that's definitely going to improve the situation of the Kurds.

It might not work now, after Turkey's pretty methodical settlement program, which seems to have been far more succesfull than Israel's.

Oh and Kurdish is being teached in Turkey now, but whatever dude.

Now, but only a few years ago, Kurdish was not allowed to be tought in schools, and even today, there are numerous restrictions on the Kurdish language, while Kurds are still largly banned from giving Kurdish names to their children. At least Israel recognizes Palestinian national aspirations, has granted them semi-autonomy, and does not restrict them culturally.

Feel free to think that all of us a devils, placed on Earth to eat every Christian. Oh and of course, it is our goal to kill every Kurd and their culture.

What a stupid hyperbolic and whiney statement. I never said the Turks were repressing Christians (much less aspiring to kill them), nor did I say the same regarding their treatment of Kurds. But they are oppressing them, heavily, and they have been far less willing to grant their minority rights compared to Israel, whether national OR cultural rights.

[WhiteHaven]

But they are oppressing them, heavily, and they have been far less willing to grant their minority rights compared to Israel, whether national OR cultural rights.

I'm going to answer later to the other points, since I have to get to a meeting with excellent McFadDonalds consultants. Bah, I'm going to be so happy once I can start studying. /rantoff

This is, partly true. I never said that there wasn't any opression. As I said earlier, Inönü started the whole "We have no Kurds in our country" thing. I don't know why.

Yes, Turkey did not grant minority rights up until the late 90's, that's sad and that's true. But things ARE changing! In your first post you said that the Kurds were forbidden to learn their own languages (they don't have one), which isn't true anymore. Everybody on this board would have believed you.

Maybe you should bear in mind, why the Ottoman Empire fell apart. There was this religion thing, but also the fact that the minorities started uprisings in order to get their own country. I still believe that this is why lots of Turks are having problems granting minority rights, because they think that is going to result in the fragmentation of the country.

What do you mean by "opressing cultural rights"? They are allowed to celebrate their own feasts, like Nevruz and are also allowed to live their Elewî religion.

Oh and you know, maybe we should stop the threadjack.

[Yoadm]

I'm going to answer later to the other points, since I have to get to a meeting with excellent McFadDonalds consultants. Bah, I'm going to be so happy once I can start studying. /rantoff

This is, partly true. I never said that there wasn't any opression. As I said earlier, Inönü started the whole "We have no Kurds in our country" thing. I don't know why.

Yes, Turkey did not grant minority rights up until the late 90's, that's sad and that's true. But things ARE changing! In your first post you said that the Kurds were forbidden to learn their own languages (they don't have one), which isn't true anymore. Everybody on this board would have believed you.

True, and I admit, I was imprecise and did not know those restrictions were eased. For that, I apologize. But the Kurds are still heavily restricted culturally, and Turkey, still, refuses to even consider cultural autonomy (much less any form of statehood). I replied to your post because you claimed that the Turkish treatment of the Kurds was 'not as bad' as the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. It is different, but in no way less oppressive.

Maybe you should bear in mind, why the Ottoman Empire fell apart. There was this religion thing, but also the fact that the minorities started uprisings in order to get their own country. I still believe that this is why lots of Turks are having problems granting minority rights, because they think that is going to result in the fragmentation of the country.

But since Turkey is a land of the Turks, it was allso just another country that rose out of the ottoman empire with the stated claim of 'self-determination'. Thus, I fail to see why the Kurds (who's identity existed hundreds of years before anyone uttered the term 'Palestinian), don't have that right.. Just like the Palestinians have that right.

What do you mean by "opressing cultural rights"? They are allowed to celebrate their own feasts, like Nevruz and are also allowed to live their Elewî religion.

Oh and you know, maybe we should stop the threadjack.

I didn't bring up neither Turkey nor the Kurds, but I commented on the comparison and your reply to that comparison. As I said before, many curriculum's regarding Kurdish culture and history are banned, and in many places in Turkey, one does not have the right to grant his children Kurdish names. Another is the turkification of the Kurdish area's which does not differ much from the Chinese treatment of the Ethnic Tibetians.

[bodhi]

Why does Turkey officially deny the genocide of the Armenians, maybe because the all sacred Ataturk was involved as an officer, how many millions do you have to kill for it to become a genocide. Why has Turkey threatened that they would invade Northern Iraq if the Kurds there annex the oil areas that are in Kurdish territory, are they afraid of a wealthy Kurdish state next door.

Tuerkey first used the Kurds to kill the Armenians and thereafter it subjugated them, gotta love their strategy.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Maybe you should bear in mind, why the Ottoman Empire fell apart. There was this religion thing, but also the fact that the minorities started uprisings in order to get their own country. I still believe that this is why lots of Turks are having problems granting minority rights, because they think that is going to result in the fragmentation of the country.

The Ottoman empire fell because it chose to align with the side that lost.

All those minorities uprisings were opportunistic in nature (and by that I don't mean to pass judgment)- they were aided and abetted by the Entente.

Though granted, dubbed "the sick man of Europe", it was bound to disintegrate without history speeding the process.

What do you mean by "this religious thing"?

Oh and you know, maybe we should stop the threadjack.

This thread has been threadjacked from page 3..