Should Palestine unilaterally declare independence?

[Padraig]

And in any case, the unspoken truth is (and I hope it won't come as a shock to some of the board's sensitive souls)- no matter how hard Turkey tries to adjust herself to EU standards- it will never be admitted cos:

Nah. How can one know this for sure? The question wouldn't arise for more than 10 years (if things go well). I think its easy for people to score political points because of that. But that's all they are, political points.

Some countries have come out very much in favour of Turkish membership though (like the UK).

And having an official Kurdish TV station is important. Nobody should pretend that everything is fine but at least there are some signs of improvement in that country.

[Galactus]

That's it?

That and of course trying to curtail the military.

[Lark the Sisterman]

That's done not for the sake of democracy, but for the sake of his Islamist agenda and to consolidate his power.

[Galactus]

That's done not for the sake of democracy, but for the sake of his Islamist agenda and to consolidate his power.

It's still a neccessarry, arguably THE neccessary step if Turkey one day wants to join the EU (that and eocnomic stuff)

Seriously, a lot of the turkish backlash is precisely that Erdogan had done a lot but the europeans are still playing the refuseniks.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Which brings us back to my initial claim that the EU has no sincere intention of letting Turkey in, based primarily on demographics considerations.

Now I already said I can't back it up and that it's more of a gut feeling- (hardly likely there are records of such undiplomatic, politically incorrect notions)- but there are some indications that those are the winds that are blowing inside the European political elites:

Only last week or so, a British Tory MP was overheard saying to his Muslim party member, in a private conversation, that he (the Muslim Tory) was alright, but masses of his coreligionists were a problem.

Just imagine what they are speaking about when no Muslims are around...

[Galactus]

Which brings us back to my initial claim that the EU has no sincere intention of letting Turkey in, based primarily on demographics considerations.

I think it's fair to say that "The EU" does not have a common policy in this regard. Although as Sarkozy is opposed nothing much will happen at least in the short-term.

The swedish government is very explicitly pro-turkish membership, for instance.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Ye, I know that, see my first post in the subject which says that some, not all, major EU countries are against it.

[Galactus]

Ye, I know that, see my first post in the subject which says that some, not all, major EU countries are against it.

IIRC France is opposed. Germany tries to avoid saying anything, Britain is pro.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Merkel's Germany is with France- her silence is telling- those two are enough. There are more, though.

But we argue about nothing- let's meet here in 10 years and see if Turkey is with the EU or with Iran.

[Maltaran]

Most Turks are Sunni, so it's unlikely they'll be with Shia Iran.

[Galactus]

Aren't most Syrians also Sunni, and doesn't Syria side w/ Iran more than anyone else? I'm not too sure about this, but that's my memory. If that is so, is there a reason that Syria is kind of the exception?

All of them has a common interest in keeping the kurds down.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Most Turks are Sunni, so it's unlikely they'll be with Shia Iran.

Hamas is Sunni and he's with Shi'ah Iran.

Yes, the cases are different- Turkey will never be so intimate with Iran as Hamas is, and of course will never concede to be its puppet or satellite, but the diplomatic relations between Iran and Turkey have already warmed up significantly: the two countries signed some trade agreements and, if my memory serves me, also some militarily ones.

Aren't most Syrians also Sunni, and doesn't Syria side w/ Iran more than anyone else? I'm not too sure about this, but that's my memory. If that is so, is there a reason that Syria is kind of the exception?

Most Syrians are Sunni but their ruling class- the Baath party and the Assad family- are Alawis, and they are a Shi'ah sect.

[Maltaran]

Why is Iran interested in that?

They have Kurds of their own.

[jurble]

Why is Iran interested in that?

Because the Kurds are the descendants of the Medes, and the Medes ruled the Persians until they were overthrown by Cyrus the Great. Clearly every Iranian knows this historical bit of trivia, and harbors a fear of the Kurds reestablishing an Empire over them!

[Lark the Sisterman]

Are you guys serious? AFAIK the Kurds are, generally speaking, despised rather than feared.

The average Arab/Turk/Persian doesn't even know that Saladin was a Kurd.

[Galactus]

Are you guys serious? AFAIK the Kurds are, generally speaking, despised rather than feared.

The average Arab/Turk/Persian doesn't even know that Saladin was a Kurd.

Er, there's low-level guerilla fighting and terrorist attacks all over Kurdistan. It's definitely a problem, and something the nations with sovereignity over the area has reasons to cooperate over.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Without backing from any external power, it's not much of a threat. I really think you guys are blowing it out of proportions. Is there any major action going on right now? Can you link me to news snippets/articles about the situation?

And while we're at it, can you explain to me why you don't support the Kurds' right for a state of their own?

[WhiteHaven]

never mind

[Werthead]

Without backing from any external power, it's not much of a threat. I really think you guys are blowing it out of proportions. Is there any major action going on right now? Can you link me to news snippets/articles about the situation?

Nothing current, but as for how the Turks have acted towards the Kurds in the past, my former boss used to work on oil installations in eastern Turkey in the mid-1990s. One day the Kurdish rebels turned up and told everyone to leave the facility, to which they agreed with rapidity. The Turkish army came in, rounded up a bunch of Kurdish civilians, said they were responsible for the incident and gunned them down in front of the surprised workers to 'reassure' them that the army was in control of the situation. For some reason my friend was not reassured and decided to return home for a career change.

And while we're at it, can you explain to me why you don't support the Kurds' right for a state of their own?

They already have one in the north of Iraq, operating as part of that federal state. The Kurds have basically agreed to delay any attempt to enlarge 'Kurdistan' or declare independence from Iraq in return for the continued support of the Americans and pressure from them on Turkey not to interfere with Kurdish activity there. In 2003 the Turks were talking pretty openly about possibly invading Northern Iraq to knock out Kurdish independence bases militants were using to strike into Turkey. The Americans encouraged them not to do that in exchange for pressuring the Kurds into curtailing their own activities (in the process of cheesing off the Turks enough for them not to allow US and British forces to invade Iraq from their territory but there you go).

The territory claimed by the Kurds extends across the north of Iraq, the far north-west of Iran, the south-east of Turkey and the far north-east of Syria. If the Kurds got their own state with these borders it would alter the borders of the whole Middle East and displace millions of non-Kurds. So it's probably not going to happen. They have the north of Iraq and I'd be surprised if they got any more than that in the near future.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Thank you for a well-thought answer.

I'm still perplexed about the reasons for the non-existent international support for the Kurds, (the magnitude of the change?- what about human rights? displacement in a massive scale?- do the Kurds demand it? can't there be a territorial compromise? will it be so disastrous if some Persians, Turks and Arabs become minority groups in liberated Kurdistan?), but perhaps it's not the place to discuss this.