The Robert Baratheon Hate thread

[Lady Blackfish]

I think that just goes back to Robert having the better claim and being the kind of guy men think they want to follow (even though he's really not). They could bank on Robert to get the most support, same as how it was obvious that Renly would have more followers than Stannis (in that case, even despite inheritance rights).

I don't know if the cause would have been lost if they'd selected Jon Arryn instead, of course. He seems quite respected at least among his own lords. But when you're choosing, you go for the optimal choice as best as you can discern at the time, and that seemed to be Robert.

The way I see the scenario falling out, Jon Arryn himself had the idea (he's the one with the most savvy of the three) and then Ned supported the idea and Robert failed to object. I don't think he knew at that time that he would hate it, so I don't think he had to be particularly strong-armed into the job, but neither do I think he came up with it himself. But this is just guesswork, it's true that we don't really know the specifics.

[Alexia]

Aerys and Rhaegar's kids were butchered by the Lannisters.

The dragonspawn were butchered with Robert's sanction. Viserys and Danaerys did survive his assassins, but not for lack of effort on his part.

EXCELLENT question.....anyone? Is there an answer as to how and why Robert took the throne and not Jon?

The official reason? Because Robert is the Targaryen heir. :lol:

On a more serious note, probably also because he's a fairly charismatic guy and he was the only one of the rebels still unmarried, meaning he was available to secure an alliance with one of the Houses who didn't support them.

[Lady Blackfish]

On a more serious note, probably also because [...] he was the only one of the rebels still unmarried, meaning he was available to secure an alliance with one of the Houses who didn't support them.

At the time he was still hoping to recover Lyanna though, however it did end up being useful.

[Datepalm]

At the time he was still hoping to recover Lyanna though, however it did end up being useful.

I think the kingship was decided after the last of the battles - its still up in the air when KL falls (Jaime sits on the throne and waits to see who will come...) so Lyanna might have been out of the picture and Tywin already offering Cercei when it all fell out.

[Lady Blackfish]

Ahh I never caught the significance of that line then, thanks.

[mormont]

EXCELLENT question.....anyone? Is there an answer as to how and why Robert took the throne and not Jon?

A number of reasons come to mind, in addition to the ones noted above. For one thing Jon was older and known to have had fertility problems with his first wife: that, I think, probably counted for a lot. Securing his line would be a challenge. Robert was proven fertile and had two brothers as heirs in the meantime. Ironically, of course, his line didn't turn out secure at all.

[Antonius Pius]

About the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys: Tywin ordered thier deaths as way of currying favour with Robert. Robert hadn't given the order, even though he might have anyway. Tywin recalled that Robert's relief was palpable when he was confronted with the dead children. The fight between Ned and Robert broke out because Ned wouldn't justify the murders, whereas Robert refused to acknowledge the children as anything but dead dragonspawn.

Then again, Robert hated the Targaryens even before the Tourney of Harrenhal.

I think the kingship was decided after the last of the battles - its still up in the air when KL falls (Jaime sits on the throne and waits to see who will come...) so Lyanna might have been out of the picture and Tywin already offering Cercei when it all fell out.

I believe it was somewhere before the Trident when the rebels decided they were going to claim the kingdom in Robert's name. When Ned arrived in King's Landing to claim the kingdom, he claimed in Robert's name. Jaime knew he would, AFAIK Robert was the only delcared claimant. The confusion was born out of the chaotic circumstances and a lack of precedent, which gave the Lannisters the opportunity to seek the throne for themselves. Note that Tywin makes no mention of that anywhere. He doesn't seem to have considered himself for the throne.

[Datepalm]

Note that Tywin makes no mention of that anywhere. He doesn't seem to have considered himself for the throne.

Beacuse no one would have let him have it - fifteen years later Ned still dosen't trust the Late Lord Lannister. Tywin had to brutally sack KL, kill the children and give Cercei away to curry favour, as you pointed out, because he was very notably absent from the actual fighting. Ned wouldn't think of taking the throne, becuase thats Ned. He does exect Robert to be offended when he tells him about Jaime on the throne, persumably on the assumtion that he should be thinking 'my throne', but its not actually clear if that was something that had already been decided 100% at the time. Robert probably became the deafaul leader by dint of being the one that killed Rhaegar, which he did for personal reasons, more than any consistent political decision.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Then again, Robert hated the Targaryens even before the Tourney of Harrenhal.

He did? Where's that come from?

[Antonius Pius]

Beacuse no one would have let him have it

I don't disagree, but from that it follows that it wasn't really up in the air who would become the next king. Which is what I meant to imply by mentioning Tywin's silence on the subject.

- snip - but its not actually clear if that was something that had already been decided 100% at the time. Robert probably became the deafaul leader by dint of being the one that killed Rhaegar, which he did for personal reasons, more than any consistent political decision.

Robert became the default-leader when the rebels decided they were definitely going to oust Aerys. It was probably his Targaryen-blood that made Aerys decide to claim his head in the first place.

IIRC Robert had decided to claim the kingdom before the Trident. He had to have put his claim in before hand. Otherwise, why would that incident "decide" Tywin? He must have had to be thinking about some choice, and going to support Aerys was obviously off the table. I assume that phrase means, that it decided Tywin to declare for Robert, instead of keeping to the Rock.

Also, Jaime recollects that Aerys didn't see Robert as a rival until the Trident, implying Jaime himself knew/realised Robert was aiming for the throne beforehand.

He did? Where's that come from?

IIRC it's mentioned somewhere in a Tourney of Harranhal-flashback. There's a single statement of sorts that says Robert hated Rhaegar even before [the incident with Lyanna took place]. THere's also a line where it says "Roberts hatred of the Targaryens was legendary", but I think that's in Ned's reflections on the way from Winterfell to King's Landing, and it doesn't really imply when that hatred took hold or where it came from.

[Datepalm]

Robert became the default-leader when the rebels decided they were definitely going to oust Aerys. It was probably his Targaryen-blood that made Aerys decide to claim his head in the first place.

IIRC Robert had decided to claim the kingdom before the Trident. He had to have put his claim in before hand. Otherwise, why would that incident "decide" Tywin? He must have had to be thinking about some choice, and going to support Aerys was obviously off the table.

I think thats a strech - its as logical to assume that Aerys called for Robert becuase he was Lyannas fiancee and only started taking the whole rebellion seriously after the trident, whoever was at its head. Tywin declared for someone at the very last moment becuase he's a crass opportunist. Had Rahegar won the trident he would have promptly attacked the rebellion forces, and claimed that that was what he had planned all along.

wrt to hating the Targs - I guess its possible to imply from the deaths of Roberts parents bride hunting for Rahegar that the brothers had some kind of deep seated resentment towards the Targs, and particulalry towards the idea of service to them, which had cost them their parents. Its not hard to imagine Aerys being callous or just ignoring it too, to salt the wounds.

[snake]

I think the kingship was decided after the last of the battles - its still up in the air when KL falls (Jaime sits on the throne and waits to see who will come...) so Lyanna might have been out of the picture and Tywin already offering Cercei when it all fell out.

Lyanna was still alive well after Robert sat on the Iron throne and Cersei was nowhere in the picture at the time. It wasn't untill after the ToJ that Robert would have learned of Lyanna's fate.

And the Kingship wasn't really up in the air when KL fell. Sure the Kingslayer thought he could put someone on the throne to spite Ned and Robert but that was his own arrogance coming through. If he'd have declared for Viserys or his father he would have not long outlived the King he murdered. His word meant nothing.

AP,

Robert's hatred of all things Targaryen came about because of Rhaegar. It might have started to fester at Harenhall when Rhaegar acted the dick but I cannot recall any mention of Robert or Stannis resenting the Targaryens before that.

[Peaches]

EXCELLENT question.....anyone? Is there an answer as to how and why Robert took the throne and not Jon?

I can just picture King Bob, Ned and Jon standing around the Iron Throne.

"Well, I dunno. Do you wanna be king?"

"I don't care. You wanna be king?"

"Not really."

"..."

"What do you want for dinner tonight?"

[MountainThatRides]

One of my favorite things about Martin is the way he characterizes his rulers. There are very few great kings, just as there were in real life; fantasy is rife with the "good king" trope when, realistically, the chances of a king being truly great were pretty slim. They weren't elected to the position based on merit -- they're either born into the role (the only really comparable modern parallel is someone who inherits a company from their mother or father and runs it into the ground; most of the royalty still in existence wields very little actual power), or they take it by force (which would make them a successful warrior, but not necessarily a good ruler). Aerys falls into the former category and Robert, of course, falls into the latter. Neither were truly great kings -- they were both good and bad -- and I think it sets an important precedent.

As far as characters go, I like Robert Baratheon a lot. He's very likable as a person because he's not pretentious, and he has the big, booming, boisterous charm that we associate with that character type, whether it's Exeter from Henry V or Gimli from Lord of the Rings. The fact that he does not relish being king, and that he's aware of his faults, make him fairly sympathetic.

If the series was about Robert's Rebellion, he'd be the star; in his youth he was dashing, cavalier and handsome, the very epitome of a noble lord, perhaps a bit rough around the edges compared to men like Tywin Lannister, but a heroic figure all the same. He was known for his martial prowess, his brute strength and his insatiable appetites. Men like that exist, and often they end up the way Robert did; fat, pathetic and dreaming of their past. He's a bit like a washed-up college athlete -- the guy who played quarterback in the state championship back in '75 and can never let it go. He remembers what it was like being the center of attention, being everyone's hero, being truly loved, and he misses it. I suppose anyone would.

I'm not defending Robert, of course. He was a bad king, all agree. He was lazy and decadent, he spent money indulgently and he took very little responsibility. He left the realm in the hands of schemers and connivers and paid it no mind as they set up power bases of their own, siphoning control away from the crown. He made a lot of bad decisions, and making Ned Stark his Hand was one of them. He should have picked Stannis. Don't get me wrong, I love Ned and Stannis is one of the most unlikable characters in the series (and rightfully so, as Martin wrote him that way) but he was better suited to the task. He had just as little taste for intrigue and political maneuvering as Ned, but steel can cut through any spider web.

I don't see Robert's pardons as his one redeeming act. Quite the contrary. While he did pardon some good men, like Ser Barristan, mostly his mercy made it possible for the corruption in King's Landing to thrive unabated. Robert was not a killer, and he didn't have the stomach for the culling that his rebellion necessitated. He wanted everyone to be his friend. His unbridled hatred towards the Targaryens, on the other hand, has very little to do with his general morality and more to do with his bitterness over Lyanna and Rhaegar. Another example of him living in the past and never moving on.

EXCELLENT question.....anyone? Is there an answer as to how and why Robert took the throne and not Jon?

The Baratheons have Targaryen blood. The house was founded by a legitimized Targaryen bastard, and when he wed the daughter of the Lord of Storm's End, he was given their castle, sigil and house motto as his own. So in addition to being Lord of the Stormlands and personally connected with many major houses (the Starks through Ned and his betrothal to Lyanna, the Tullys through the Starks and the Arryns through Jon), he was also a capable military commander and very popular; he was the perfect figurehead to build a rebellion around. The fact that his house had royal blood made the paperwork easier, I'm sure (the Arryns were about as far away from the Targaryens as you can get, being the oldest house of Andal nobility in Westeros), realistically any of them could have been king. It just made the most sense for it to be Robert.

[Ipood]

There is that, and he fact that Roberts grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen, the daughter of Aegon V, which made Rhaegar his third cousin removed. Therefore, after the Targaryens, he was the one closest to them by blood. I believe that was why Aerys asked Steffon Baratheon to go to the Free cities for his son. But, well, that wouldn't have mattered, had he not won at the Trident.

[Wendy the White Fawn]

If the series was about Robert's Rebellion, he'd be the star; in his youth he was dashing, cavalier and handsome, the very epitome of a noble lord, perhaps a bit rough around the edges compared to men like Tywin Lannister, but a heroic figure all the same. He was known for his martial prowess, his brute strength and his insatiable appetites. Men like that exist, and often they end up the way Robert did; fat, pathetic and dreaming of their past. He's a bit like a washed-up college athlete -- the guy who played quarterback in the state championship back in '75 and can never let it go. He remembers what it was like being the center of attention, being everyone's hero, being truly loved, and he misses it. I suppose anyone would

This is exactly why Robert reminds me of Edward IV, Edward won his crown on the battlefield and was lauded for being the archetypal champion. He was handsome, athletic and very charming, he also in later life became a drunk and a womaniser who died early due to his excessive lifestyle. His wife is also a dead ringer for Cersei, Elizabeth Woodville was a renowned blonde beauty who was reviled by Edwards followers as an ambitious, conniving troublemaker. She strove to put all her family in positions of power, including her brother (although I'm not implying twincest)and tried to distance Edward from his confidants.

Like Edward, I find Robert a tragically flawed figure. His prowess in battle won him the favour of the smallfolk but in the end he was woefully inadequate as an administrator, too easily swayed by the wrong people and too eager to leave the role of governing to other people.

I don't exactly hate Robert but there was more than one occasion where I could have cheerfully slapped him upside the head.

[snake]

The dragonspawn were butchered with Robert's sanction. Viserys and Danaerys did survive his assassins, but not for lack of effort on his part.

Robert didn't sanction anything, he failed to condemn their murder. There is a difference.

And the hired knives of the Usurper was Viserys paranoia. It wasn't until Dany married Drogo that Robert actually tried to have them killed. Even then it wasn't until after he learned she was pregnant.

[Spastic Plastic]

Yeah, it wasn't until Dany married Khal Drogo that Robert actually sent assassins after them. He tried to do it before, but Jon Arryn always stopped it.

There were no "hired knives of the Usurper", that's just wishful thinking by Viserys. He really wanted to believe that he was Robert's nemesis, while to Robert he was less threatening than a pile of dogshit on the sidewalk.

[TrueMetis]

Yeah, it wasn't until Dany married Khal Drogo that Robert actually sent assassins after them. He tried to do it before, but Jon Arryn always stopped it.

There were no "hired knives of the Usurper", that's just wishful thinking by Viserys. He really wanted to believe that he was Robert's nemesis, while to Robert he was less threatening than a pile of dogshit on the sidewalk.

I can imagine the conversation.

"I'm going to have the dragonspawn killed"

"why?"

"Ya you right, no point"

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Yeah, it wasn't until Dany married Khal Drogo that Robert actually sent assassins after while to Robert he was less threatening than a pile of dogshit on the sidewalk.

Sidewalk dogshit can be pretty perilous though. You're just walking along minding your own business, and if you're not wary enough, SQUISH! Day ruined, right there.