The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII

[WinterBreeze]

Well with all the debating and evidence I think everybody can agree on three things,

-We wanna know who Jon's mom is.

-The only person who knows is Howland Reed.

and

-The whole Lyanna/Rhaegar this is fishy.

:thumbsup:

[Radio Changes]

How would you define 'fishy'?

[WinterBreeze]

Mysterious, Weird, Convenient, having to do with duty or honor... you know the basics :cool4:

[winterqueen]

I commented on another thread about this subject earlier today but I will share my ideas here too.

My personal guess is that Howland Reed and Wylla know for sure about Jon's mom and dad. Benjen Stark must have a good idea/or know for certain so I feel he should be grouped with Reed and Wylla. It's possible that Ned told Ben the truth about Jon when he returned from the war. Benjen and Lyanna were raised together at Winterfell so he might know more details about Lyanna/Rhaegar/Robert than even Ned. I think out of all the Stark siblings, Lyanna and Benjen spent the most time together. They must of talked about all kinds of stuff. Just my wild guess......

Here is my wildcard- Old Nan. Like Benjen, Old Nan is living at Winterfell with Lyanna. All three of them must have been very close. Old Nan never tells the Winter Rose of Winterfell or the Knight of the Laughing Tree stories to the Stark children. Perhaps Ned told Old Nan not to pass these stories down? If that is the case, Old Nan may have put 2 and 2 together about Lyanna's disappearance and Jon's arrival. Old Nan must have helped take care of baby Jon and would have heard all the talk about the castle about the "Snow" baby boy. Old Nan has seen lots of Stark babies in her day, perhaps no one needed to say a word to her? Maybe she just knew Jon was Lyanna's son when she saw him for the first time? Old Nan would know but not say a word to anyone. Also, Lyanna's mother died and we never know if she had a Septa. I don't think so because the Starks follow the old gods. Septa Mordane must have been a Catelyn/The Seven thing. That being said, Old Nan is like a grandmother to Lyanna and her brothers. Lyanna would need to have someone to talk about girl stuff. Among the topics would be marrying Robert and meeting Rhaegar at the tourney. Why not talk to Old Nan?

So many money is on Howland Reed, Wylla, Benjen and maybe Old Nan.

[History of Westeros]

I commented on another thread about this subject earlier today but I will share my ideas here too.

My personal guess is that Howland Reed and Wylla know for sure about Jon's mom and dad. Benjen Stark must have a good idea/or know for certain so I feel he should be grouped with Reed and Wylla. It's possible that Ned told Ben the truth about Jon when he returned from the war. Benjen and Lyanna were raised together at Winterfell so he might know more details about Lyanna/Rhaegar/Robert than even Ned. I think out of all the Stark siblings, Lyanna and Benjen spent the most time together. They must of talked about all kinds of stuff. Just my wild guess......

Here is my wildcard- Old Nan. Like Benjen, Old Nan is living at Winterfell with Lyanna. All three of them must have been very close. Old Nan never tells the Winter Rose of Winterfell or the Knight of the Laughing Tree stories to the Stark children. Perhaps Ned told Old Nan not to pass these stories down? If that is the case, Old Nan may have put 2 and 2 together about Lyanna's disappearance and Jon's arrival. Old Nan must have helped take care of baby Jon and would have heard all the talk about the castle about the "Snow" baby boy. Old Nan has seen lots of Stark babies in her day, perhaps no one needed to say a word to her? Maybe she just knew Jon was Lyanna's son when she saw him for the first time? Old Nan would know but not say a word to anyone. Also, Lyanna's mother died and we never know if she had a Septa. I don't think so because the Starks follow the old gods. Septa Mordane must have been a Catelyn/The Seven thing. That being said, Old Nan is like a grandmother to Lyanna and her brothers. Lyanna would need to have someone to talk about girl stuff. Among the topics would be marrying Robert and meeting Rhaegar at the tourney. Why not talk to Old Nan?

So many money is on Howland Reed, Wylla, Benjen and maybe Old Nan.

Hey good point about old Nan. It's a little strange she never told the Stark kids the KotLT or Winter Rose stories.

[SFDanny]

Here is my wildcard- Old Nan. Like Benjen, Old Nan is living at Winterfell with Lyanna. All three of them must have been very close. Old Nan never tells the Winter Rose of Winterfell or the Knight of the Laughing Tree stories to the Stark children.

You're right about the Winter Rose story. That one is old enough and widely known enough that it would make sense for Nan to know it as well. It has the Stark Lord cast in an unflattering light, which may be all the more reason she would tell it, or there may be a "Stark version" of the story. Why she would not tell the next generation this story is a great question. My guess is not that Ned orders her not to tell it, but perhaps this one is too raw of a topic for Nan to tell the children about. She may have loved Lyanna too much to tell a story so close to and tied up with her tragic end.

I don't know about the Knight of the Laughing Tree though. This is a story that may not have ever reached Old Nan's ears, and if it did, it comes probably in the form of a secret told to Nan from Lyanna or Benjen that she may not feel free to reveal in the form a of a story to small children. Which doesn't mean if she knows something she wouldn't be a great source of information now.

I agree, great points. Old Nan rises on my list of suspects to spill the beans!

[Zizoz]

Is Old Nan even alive?

[SFDanny]

Is Old Nan even alive?

Last we know of, yes.

[the average Other]

I've always thought the 3 most trustworthy guards staying at the TOJ to protect their prince's pregnant wife/lover must only be part of the truth. I suspect there was something else at the TOJ which required protection and secrecy.

I doubt Rhaegar spend so much time away from King's Landing just to be with Lyanna. I wouldn't be surprised if he had been doing something else about the prophecy(ies) and the future battle to save the world. That "something else" could be trying to hatch dragon's eggs, no? He wouldn't be the first Targ to try to and that attempt would certainly not be the first to bring about death and destruction.

I love this theory! I don't even think it's that far-fetched. We have no idea what happened to Egg's egg(s) after the tragedy at Summerhall - isn't it possible that they were buried in the ruins and Rhaegar found them years later? He did like to spend time alone at Summerhall, after all. If that is the case then where are the eggs now? Could this be where Howland Reed comes in?

Re: finding out about Jon's parentage

My money's on Sam bumping into Wylla. :)

Re: The three and Viserys

C'mon people, it's not like Hightower, Dayne and Whent were planning on staying at TOJ for the rest of their lives. My guess is that they were just waiting for Lyanna to either get better or die so that they could pack up all babes and eggs there and head to Dragonstone. A little delay does not amount to oathbreaking. Ned kinda ruined that plan when he showed up that quickly and the KGs were forced to turn their temporary logdings into a site for their last stand.

[Schlafmohn]

I always had a problem with this story concering the reason Rhaegar took Lyanna to the Tower of Joy at all. As the Prince he could have her raped everywhere he wanted. Why trouble himself by making such a long journey south? That was like a declaration of war, very stupid. If he didn't take her away, word might not have reached Robert (at least not so fast/perhaps until he would have talked with Lyanna again). On the other hand, if he loved her, why could the have not a secret affair, let's say in King's Landing?

Is there anything said about where Lyanna was before Rhaegar took her anyway? In King's Landing?

If that was indeed the case I have just one explanation: R and L had a secret affair and King Aerys came to know about it. Because he was mad and getting even more so he killed Brandon and his father and Rhaegar feared he would kill her too. Thus bringin her to the tower of Joy, because she was no longer save in King's Landing.

Is there a reason given why Aerys killed Ned's brother and father so cruelly?

If this was already discussed I'd be glad if someone could lead me to this discussion (I have not read ALL those 8 threads...) If not..well do you have other explanations? What do you think of it?

[winterqueen]

I always got the feeling that Rhaegar took Lyanna to the Tower of Joy because it was remote and safe. They could be alone without the whole court looking on. The King was clearly mad and Rhaegar didn't want to subject Lyanna to his wrath. I know it has been done before, but perhaps Rhaegar didn't want Princess Elia and Lyanna in the same castle? Regardless of if Rhaegar took Lyanna as a lover or a 2nd wife, she would need her own household. Maybe his goal was to restore Summerhall and live there with Lyanna?

[winterqueen]

One more thing. When Jaime is thinking back on his Targ Kingsguard days, he never recalls seeing Lyanna in KL. As a knight of the kingsguards, Jaime would have come into contact with Rhaegar's mistress or 2nd wife (whatever Lyanna was). Therefore, I don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna were ever in King's Landing together.

[the average Other]

I always had a problem with this story concering the reason Rhaegar took Lyanna to the Tower of Joy at all. As the Prince he could have her raped everywhere he wanted. Why trouble himself by making such a long journey south? That was like a declaration of war, very stupid. If he didn't take her away, word might not have reached Robert (at least not so fast/perhaps until he would have talked with Lyanna again). On the other hand, if he loved her, why could the have not a secret affair, let's say in King's Landing?

Is there anything said about where Lyanna was before Rhaegar took her anyway? In King's Landing?

As to the latter, no, but one of my favourite theories is that she was travelling in the Riverlands on her way to Riverrun, to meet her sister-in-law to be and/or to attend Brandon and Cat's wedding.

No idea why Rhaegar chose TOJ in particular, but I can imagine some reasons why he would have taken Lyanna to a remote, hidden place instead of KL and the court or the castle of some loyal lord:

-he wanted some alone time with his new mistress,

-he didn't want Lyanna in the same place as Elia and their children,

-he feared that other lords might send Lyanna back to her family as a part of a hostage exchange or a peace treaty,

-he feared that Aerys will hurt her in his madness,

-he didn't want Robert and Lyanna's relatives to know where they were yet, because he didn't want the matter to escalate to duels and such, and hoped that once feelings cooled down a bit, they'd be able to come to a peaceful solution,

-he was fed up with court and its intrigues and wanted to play home with Lyanna in peace,

-he had plans regarding the prophecy and a third head of the dragon and waking the dragons etc. and needed a private place to realize these plans,

-he wanted to protect the north-raised Lyanna from courtly intrigues and plots, because he thought she wasn't suited to that kind of stuff.

And what we've seen and heard of Rhaegar and Lyanna this far seems to point to them being a romantic dreamer and a reckless action-girl respectively, so obviously a practical, sensible solution was out of the question. :)

Is there a reason given why Aerys killed Ned's brother and father so cruelly?

Aerys was mad and paranoid, and he saw Brandon's threat to kill Rhaegar as a rebellious act that needed to be punished harshly. We don't know what Aerys thought about Lyanna and Rhaegar's affair (or whatever it was) but if he was anything like, say, Viserys he probably thought that a prince is allowed to do whatever he wants with any woman he wants.

[Maegor Targaryen]

Even if R+L=J is true and Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, Jon probably would't break his vows... unless somehow the Night's Watch wasn't need anymore.

[nothatso]

Even if R+L=J is true and Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, Jon probably would't break his vows... unless somehow the Night's Watch wasn't need anymore.

Or if Dany's "treason for love" is him abandoning the Night's Watch :P

Whatever it might be, I'd personally feel it would be a colossal disappointment if Jon just sat on the wall the rest of his life with all of the things happening to his family. It's death or treason as far as I'm concerned, unless as you suggested the Night's Watch wasn't needed.

[MattTaz]

Or if Dany's "treason for love" is him abandoning the Night's Watch :P

Whatever it might be, I'd personally feel it would be a colossal disappointment if Jon just sat on the wall the rest of his life with all of the things happening to his family. It's death or treason as far as I'm concerned, unless as you suggested the Night's Watch wasn't needed.

If that Horn of Winter or whatever its called is real, then the Wall comes down and that's the end of the Nights Watch

[MattTaz]

Or if Dany's "treason for love" is him abandoning the Night's Watch :P

Whatever it might be, I'd personally feel it would be a colossal disappointment if Jon just sat on the wall the rest of his life with all of the things happening to his family. It's death or treason as far as I'm concerned, unless as you suggested the Night's Watch wasn't needed.

If -

Horn of Winter (or whatever its called) is real

Wall comes down

End of Nights Watch

[SFDanny]

No, if the Wall comes down it is only the start of a new phase of the Night's Watch's responsibility. They are guardians of the realms of men, not just guardians of the Wall. Jon, as Lord Commander, has his work cut out for him to unite all the contending forces of Westerosi against the Others.

[WinterBreeze]

No, if the Wall comes down it is only the start of a new phase of the Night's Watch's responsibility. They are guardians of the realms of men, not just guardians of the Wall. Jon, as Lord Commander, has his work cut out for him to unite all the contending forces of Westerosi against the Others.

I doubt that will be to much of a problem really, once people figure out that Evil Magic Ice Vampires are killing everybody I figure they'll have the sense to flock to Winterfell, where Jon will have likely situated the remains of the Night's Watch. :smoking:

[MattTaz]

No, if the Wall comes down it is only the start of a new phase of the Night's Watch's responsibility. They are guardians of the realms of men, not just guardians of the Wall. Jon, as Lord Commander, has his work cut out for him to unite all the contending forces of Westerosi against the Others.

The Lords of the North have thousands of men. If Jon rocks up with 200 and tries to take control they'll probably tell him to piss off.

Money, Men and Power will drive the armies of the north. Jon has none.

Jon Stark however :) Depends on Robbs letter I suppose