The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII

[corbon]

The standard order of succession would put all Rhaegar's issue over his siblings, that he died before them doesn't matter the slightest.

Good. I vaguely thought that was the case but tried to assume the opposite in order to cover my backside (too lazy/busy in this case to check).

Apologies if I helped confuse anyone else.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

My assumption on the details of succession are based on what I feel would have happened had Aerys, baby Aegon, and Viserys lived. Viserys would more than likley have been named crowned prince. Given that he was the only living male son of Aerys after the Trident and the fall of Kings Landing, Viserys had to have been the heir apparent. Since Rhaegar was never crowned king the sons of Aerys have a better claim to the throne than the sons of the dead crowned prince.

Once again, this assumption is wrong. Why do you continue to ignore all the examples to the contrary, like Viserys I being king though his father never was, ditto for Aegon III (we don't even know who his father was), and Prince Valarr. Here is Prince Maekar discussing his older brother Baelor's death:

"Yes," the prince admitted. "You'll hear them whisper as well. The king is old. When he dies, Valarr will climb the throne in place of his father. Each time a battle is lost or a crop fails, the fools will say, 'Baelor would not have let it happen, but the hedge knight killed him.'"

Valarr's father Baelor was never king, but his uncle Maekar fully expects him to succeed his grandfather. That's how succession works in Westeros.

We even have Dany spelling it right out about baby Aegon, when talking to Brown Ben Plumm:

"Which King Aegon?" Dany asked. "Five Aegon's have ruled in Westeros." Her brother's son would have been the sixth, but the Usurper's men had dashed his head against a wall.

Not "but his father died on the Trident before he could be crowned, thereby removing him from the royal succession". If baby Aegon had been spirited away with the Queen and Viserys, he would have been the king across the water, not his uncle.

[jefe91]

I have conceded and agree that if and it is a big "if" R+L married then Jon would be considered the heir to the throne. Stil believe that Jon will remain on the wall given his oath, but he maybe one of the three dragon heads, just not sure who the third might be

[SFDanny]

When Eddard confronted the Queen in the throne after Roberts's she asked that everyone bend the knee and swear fealty to Joffery and eluded to the fact that the new KG had done so already

Do you mean this quote from Joffrey?

"I wish to be crowned within a fortnight. Today I shall accept oaths of fealty from my loyal councillors." (AGoT 440)

Followed by this quote from Cersei:

"Allow me to return the courtesy. Bend the knee, my lord. Bend the knee and swear fealty to my son, and we shall allow you to step down as Hand and live out your days in grey waste you call home."(AGoT 441)

Note here that there is no reference to the Kingsguard retaking their oaths. Combined with the fact Ser Barristan tells Ned before this scene that his "place is beside the young king now" (AGoT 438) and what you have is the Kingsguard, thinking Joffrey is the rightful king, see their place as guardian to the new king without renewing their oaths.

As far as the KG taking orders from the Queen Regent they have done this all through out the books because it is understood that the Regent or the named Protector of the realm governs until the King comes of age.

Note here that in the throne room scene Cersei is not yet the Queen Regent, yet the Kingsguard follows both her and Joffrey's orders.

The would follow the orders of the Crown prince if commanded too by the reigning King.

Martin makes it clear, both in his own remarks and in his stories, that the Kingsguard would follow the orders of the Crown Prince, without an order by the king to do so. It's when the King orders the Kingsguard not to follow the orders of one of the other royals that we would see the difference between the two.

As far as lines of succession Rhaegar's childern are not in the line of succession until he is crowned King, becuase he died on the Trident before Aerys I would assume that the oldest living male son of the living King would be next in the line of succession, meaning Viserys. Given this there is zero way John can be the heir to the throne since Rhaegar was never crowned king.

Glad we cleared this one up.

"Posted Before"

I was trying to imply that i find it impossible that the three KG would break their oath. Some folks on this board use this as the basis of their premise that somehow John is the Targ heir. I agrue that this is proof that the KG oath is to the reigning King not the royal family.

I haven't yet seen any citation from you to support your position.

If you look at it from my perspective the KG stated that the do not run meaning they live and die with the reigning King.

How do you get from a boast right before a fight to the idea that the Kingsguard "live and die with the reigning King"? Ser Barristan says they must "ward the king with all my strength ... to give my blood for his ..." (AGoT 520) but this does not mean they must die with the reigning king. Obviously many don't. They go on to serve the next king, and perhaps the one after that, and do so without retaking their oaths, as Ser Barristan's example shows.

Their oath did not bind them to the heir to the throne.

Unfortunately, we don't have a copy of the oath the Kingsguard takes - although Ser Barristan's quote seems likely to be a piece of it - and so we can't be sure what all the words say. Instead we have to piece the content of the oath together by what the characters say and do. I see nothing that supports your position that the Kingsguard was not bound to the heir to the throne. If you could give me something other than your assertion or your belief perhaps we could discuss this in more depth.

I believe both arguments have their strenghts, but the John as heir theory requires a bit of speculation regarding a possible marrige between R+L which I find a bit of a leap. Either way cant wait to find out how it all plays out

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, but the leap here is your asking others to assume the Kingsguard oath was only to one king and not to his heir without any evidence to support it.

Ser Bariston broke his oath when he remained on Robert's KG, he confessed this mistake to Danerys and stated that the KG oath should be for life, and begged her forgiveness for betraying his original oath to her father.

Selmy does ask Dany to allow him to serve her, because he sees her as her father's heir, and he - and others- say explicitly that the Kingsguard oath is for life, not should be for life.

[Casacerian]

Perhaps the White Book holds portions of the answers?

Perhaps not. I had not seen anyone put that forward as a suggestion, and thought I would give it a shot.

EDIT: As to what the Kingsguard were doing in the Tower of Joy.

[Stalker]

Perhaps the White Book holds portions of the answers?

Perhaps not. I had not seen anyone put that forward as a suggestion, and thought I would give it a shot.

EDIT: As to what the Kingsguard were doing in the Tower of Joy.

Since Barristan would be the one to write that, he would have had to know about it, and it seems pretty clear he doesn't.

[SFDanny]

I don't know how much Ser Barristan knows about the Tower of Joy, but it is possible, even if he knows very little, that Selmy's entries about the deaths of the three Sworn Brothers could help us, the readers, put together more clues toward solving the mystery. I'm just kind of dubious that Martin will use this a vehicle to give us more information. We have already had Jaime's chapter reading large portions of the book and his discussion with Ser Loras about the entries, so I find it unlikely we will get more from that source. Ser Barristan telling Dany what he knows seems more likely to me. Whatever source it is, I know I'd like to read it.

[StrongBelwas]

I don't know why it took me so long to think of this, but I believe that Jon will learn about his parents through the reed children. I guess I assumed that Howland would somehow come to meet Jon but that's rather impossible isn't it? But the Reed children are at the wall now. My guess is that before the series is over one of Dany's Dragons will obey Jon creating a mystery that either Meera or Jojen will provide an answer for.

[Jak o the Shadows]

I don't know why it took me so long to think of this, but I believe that Jon will learn about his parents through the reed children. I guess I assumed that Howland would somehow come to meet Jon but that's rather impossible isn't it? But the Reed children are at the wall now. My guess is that before the series is over one of Dany's Dragons will obey Jon creating a mystery that either Meera or Jojen will provide an answer for.

That is my thinking as well. I have always been a strong beleiver in R+L=J, even before seeing the posts online.

Jon will find out sooner or later, it would be a fitting test of his vows, and it seems like something Martin would do.

Similar to the pain he must have gone through at Stannis's offer of Winterfell. It may also offer him some closure into who his mother was.

I look forward to Bran's chapters mostly to see what the Reed children reveal next. :)

I know this debate has been ranging back and forth forever about the TOJ. Here are my thoughts, take em' or leave them.

1) Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and brought her to the TOJ and the result was Jon.

- It looks like his reasoning was shown to Danny in "three heads has the dragon, need one more" not an exact quote I know. But the point was he was on a mission to create another dragon. After the tournament Lyanna apparently caught Rhaegar's attention. Not to get off topic but if she was indeed the Knight of the Laughing Tree, then that may have kicked him into prophecy mode....oh look there is one kick ass woman..I'll make her the mother of the next head of the dragon. There is not hard evidence of this, but there is enough text to make this a reasonable assumption.

2) If Lyanna was not carrying Rhaegar's child why were the 3 most deadly Kingsguard present at the TOJ?

- If she was not carrying the baby, why would the three not returned to Kings Landing to help fight the rest of the war?

3) We all know they had sex. Robert himself was in a rage over how many times Lyanna was "raped".

- Weather the sex was rape or not is not clear. She was 16 and headstrong. Ned never seems to hate Rhaegar, and does nto think of him as that type of man. Ned would know better than anyone else as he found his sister alive.

4) "Promise me Ned"

- Ned is hounted by that promise, and talks about the lies one tells for love, and how he has been living those lies for 14 years.

- I do not think he would be thinking about Lyanna, and those lies back to back if Jon's mother was someone else.

5) Danny's vision of the blue rose growing from the wall of ice.

- Pretty self explanitory, Lyanna's favorite flower was the blue rose. The vision signifies Jon comming into his own and growing up/maturing at the wall. The part about filling the air with sweetness, could be that he is just a good guy. Or maybe Danny falls for him later on, no real clue how it will go on that issue.

6)The Reed's were very suprised that Bran had never heard the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree from his dad.

- It seems like Ned did not share many stories dealing with his sister, or not that one in particular because it involved Lyanna and Rhaegar.

- This is more of a hint than eveidence, but it does show Ned's pain over his sisters loss.

7)Ned in his cell in Kings Landing

- His thoughts are about Jon and explaining everything to him. Another hint that there is more going on than his mother being Willa or someone else.

8)The hints about Dayne, Willa and other women go against Ned's character, and he never expresses guilt over cheating on Cat. It is always regret of the lies he told for love.

- I do not see how not telling your wife who the mother of your bastard is, is a lie told for love. Unless the lie is protecting somebody......

Well this has been a long post, but in my opinion the only mother than Jon can possibly have is Lyanna. There are too many references and hints for it to be a red herring. How he finds out his herritage, and what happens later in the books is anyones guess.

[Radio Changes]

If I remember correctly, GRRM says that Snow's parent's WILL be revealed. That brings up the question in my mind as to who is going to do it. I can't see any way where Jon could meet with Howland Reed or Wylla and it not being very cheesy. That's my main problem with the theory is that it's too damn inconvenient to be revealed, the only people who know are either isolated in a swamp or as far from the North as can be and still be in Westeros, sitting in Dorne. The only thing I can see is Jon deciding to go south with Stannis or somehow Jojen and Meera showing up and saying, 'Oh, hey are you Jon Snow? Yeah here's a letter from our dad, seeya'

[Prince of the North]

If I remember correctly, GRRM says that Snow's parent's WILL be revealed. That brings up the question in my mind as to who is going to do it. I can't see any way where Jon could meet with Howland Reed or Wylla and it not being very cheesy. That's my main problem with the theory is that it's too damn inconvenient to be revealed, the only people who know are either isolated in a swamp or as far from the North as can be and still be in Westeros, sitting in Dorne. The only thing I can see is Jon deciding to go south with Stannis or somehow Jojen and Meera showing up and saying, 'Oh, hey are you Jon Snow? Yeah here's a letter from our dad, seeya'

Actually, what about Bran figuring it out from info/hints from Meera and Jojen? Bran already knows the "official" version of the happenings at the ToJ. Meera and Jojen are already seen to tell Bran about KotLT and wonder why Bran doesn't know the story. I don't think it would be unbelievable or cheesy at all if the Reed kids reveal it to Bran or Bran puts the puzzle pieces together and then tells it to Jon in the future. I'm pretty sure at least some of the Stark kids will be getting back together in the future when things start wrapping up. But maybe that's just me :dunno:

[winterqueen]

Actually, what about Bran figuring it out from info/hints from Meera and Jojen? Bran already knows the "official" version of the happenings at the ToJ. Meera and Jojen are already seen to tell Bran about KotLT and wonder why Bran doesn't know the story. I don't think it would be unbelievable or cheesy at all if the Reed kids reveal it to Bran or Bran puts the puzzle pieces together and then tells it to Jon in the future. I'm pretty sure at least some of the Stark kids will be getting back together in the future when things start wrapping up. But maybe that's just me :dunno:

I think (if Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon is true, which I think it is) it will be either one of the Reeds or Jon's Stark siblings that help put the pieces together. Don't forget the shared dream of Bran and Rickon of Ned in the Winterfell burial chamber. Bran thinks Ned is upset about Jon. We never know the details of Rickon's thoughts on the dream, only that their dad is there. My crazy hope is that Bran and Rickon saw Ned talking to the Lyanna tomb, telling her how sorry he is about Jon ("your son, Lya") and all the things left unsaid. I could see a reunited Jon and Rickon talking about their dad and Rickon sharing the dream with Jon. Rickon would not know all the back story on the war over Lyanna. It is safe to say Osha knows the Winter Rose of Winterfell stories. Maybe Osha might make a few things together??? My silver stags and golden dragons are on the Reeds, Bran and maybe Rickon working out the details and telling Jon their theories.

[Radio Changes]

Actually, what about Bran figuring it out from info/hints from Meera and Jojen? Bran already knows the "official" version of the happenings at the ToJ. Meera and Jojen are already seen to tell Bran about KotLT and wonder why Bran doesn't know the story. I don't think it would be unbelievable or cheesy at all if the Reed kids reveal it to Bran or Bran puts the puzzle pieces together and then tells it to Jon in the future. I'm pretty sure at least some of the Stark kids will be getting back together in the future when things start wrapping up. But maybe that's just me :dunno:

That too, but I don't feel like Jon would believe it. That's another thing, I'm not saying that it isn't true, in fact I think R+L=J to be pretty well grounded and most likely true, but when I see it from Jon's perspective there would be very few people out there who would be able to convince me of something that sounds so preposterous on the surface.

[fragment]

I'm still not convinced that Jon Snow is the offspring of R + L, simply because he has no features that are Targaryen-ness. He does not have purple/lilac eyes nor the silver/blonde hair. I would love for this to be the case but I don't see GRRM going down this route.

[Errant Bard]

I'm still not convinced that Jon Snow is the offspring of R + L, simply because he has no features that are Targaryen-ness. He does not have purple/lilac eyes nor the silver/blonde hair. I would love for this to be the case but I don't see GRRM going down this route.

You mean that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon's father can not be a Stark, since their physical attributes are entirely Tully?

ETA: Not that Jon being the hidden heir would not suck big time, or is as certain as some want to force others to believe.

[fragment]

You mean that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon's father can not be a Stark, since their physical attributes are entirely Tully?

ETA: Not that Jon being the hidden heir would not suck big time, or is as certain as some want to force others to believe.

Ah... I did not think about Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon looking like the Tully. Good point... well played, well played. :)

[Blue Steel]

I'm still not convinced that Jon Snow is the offspring of R + L, simply because he has no features that are Targaryen-ness. He does not have purple/lilac eyes nor the silver/blonde hair. I would love for this to be the case but I don't see GRRM going down this route.

Plenty of Targaryens had darker hair such as Baelor Breakspear.

[History of Westeros]

Plenty of Targaryens had darker hair such as Baelor Breakspear.

Plus no Baratheons we know of look like Targs. Roberts grandmother or great grandmother was Targ. Nothing, no silver hair, no purple eyes.. Not a hint.

Just more evidence that not all ppl with Targ blood look like Targs.

[History of Westeros]

That too, but I don't feel like Jon would believe it. That's another thing, I'm not saying that it isn't true, in fact I think R+L=J to be pretty well grounded and most likely true, but when I see it from Jon's perspective there would be very few people out there who would be able to convince me of something that sounds so preposterous on the surface.

It's a good point, however there are two things that would insta-convince him, or come close. Howland Reed would be one. The dragons liking Jon would be another.

[MattTaz]

That is my thinking as well. I have always been a strong beleiver in R+L=J, even before seeing the posts online.

1) Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and brought her to the TOJ and the result was Jon.

- It looks like his reasoning was shown to Danny in "three heads has the dragon, need one more" not an exact quote I know. But the point was he was on a mission to create another dragon. After the tournament Lyanna apparently caught Rhaegar's attention. Not to get off topic but if she was indeed the Knight of the Laughing Tree, then that may have kicked him into prophecy mode....oh look there is one kick ass woman..I'll make her the mother of the next head of the dragon. There is not hard evidence of this, but there is enough text to make this a reasonable assumption.

2) If Lyanna was not carrying Rhaegar's child why were the 3 most deadly Kingsguard present at the TOJ?

- If she was not carrying the baby, why would the three not returned to Kings Landing to help fight the rest of the war?

3) We all know they had sex. Robert himself was in a rage over how many times Lyanna was "raped".

- Weather the sex was rape or not is not clear. She was 16 and headstrong. Ned never seems to hate Rhaegar, and does nto think of him as that type of man. Ned would know better than anyone else as he found his sister alive.

4) "Promise me Ned"

- Ned is hounted by that promise, and talks about the lies one tells for love, and how he has been living those lies for 14 years.

- I do not think he would be thinking about Lyanna, and those lies back to back if Jon's mother was someone else.

5) Danny's vision of the blue rose growing from the wall of ice.

- Pretty self explanitory, Lyanna's favorite flower was the blue rose. The vision signifies Jon comming into his own and growing up/maturing at the wall. The part about filling the air with sweetness, could be that he is just a good guy. Or maybe Danny falls for him later on, no real clue how it will go on that issue.

6)The Reed's were very suprised that Bran had never heard the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree from his dad.

- It seems like Ned did not share many stories dealing with his sister, or not that one in particular because it involved Lyanna and Rhaegar.

- This is more of a hint than eveidence, but it does show Ned's pain over his sisters loss.

7)Ned in his cell in Kings Landing

- His thoughts are about Jon and explaining everything to him. Another hint that there is more going on than his mother being Willa or someone else.

8)The hints about Dayne, Willa and other women go against Ned's character, and he never expresses guilt over cheating on Cat. It is always regret of the lies he told for love.

- I do not see how not telling your wife who the mother of your bastard is, is a lie told for love. Unless the lie is protecting somebody......

9) Theon's dream of a headless Ned, Robert with his guts falling out, and Lyanna with her Blue Rose Crown and gore all over her dress - yes a messy fever that one :)

10) Jon and Robb being of the same age, when and where would have Ned impregnated Ashara/Whylla, before the war, after the war? North or South?

11) Ned looks like Jon looks like Arya looks like Lyanna

This has been brought up in another post, but Rhaeghar left 3 kingsguards to protect Lyanna, who was the Maester? Someone suggested Marwyn :)