What should be Jon's new Targaryen name?

[Lord Varys]

Alexia,

I meant that the brothers of the Night's Watch only get executed for oathbreaking after they swore and broke an oath. Jon ponders that he could still leave the Wall before he swears his oath (after all, he went voluntarily to Castle Black, so he also can leave of his own free will). The other guys - Rast, Dareon, Chett etc. - would be executed for oathbreaking only after they swore the oath in question.

But if they escaped before they swore the oath, they would have to answer for the crimes which made the Lord who tried them sent them to the Wall.

[Jak o the Shadows]

Well here's the kicker. If he is revealed to be a Targ, which I believe. There is no proof as of now that he would not be a bastard. R+L=J, but still a bastard.

Going off hints from Robb's letter....having Jon as his heir would legitimize him as a Stark. Even if he then found out the truth of his birth, I would think he would still keep the Stark name. Knowing R+L=J , and having it revealed to the realm would obviously make him a contender for the throne.

I do not see him as taking a Targ name though. At the most I think he would go from Jon Stark to Jon Targaryen....but thats a long shot.

I guess we just have to wait an seee if he gets the letter from Lady Mormont, or finds out his heritage first....maybe the Reed kids drop enough hints to Bran.

What his name ends up being is gonna depend on which order he finds everything out in.

Personally I think Jon Stark sounds the best. :smoking:

[Quanta]

I agree with those who think it terribly unlikely that Jon will become King. First, R+L=J must be true, certainly possible. Second, he must be legitimate, also possible but there really isn't any evidence to suggest it is so. Third, he must somehow get out of his NW Oath. This is the part I have the biggest problem with. We spend the better part of Jon's story with him struggling to keep his oath. Having Jon be released from his oath, which so much time has been spent showing how hard it is for him to keep it, would make a lot of Jon's story moot. What is the point of Maester Aemon being a Targaryen who would have been King had he forsworn his oaths and then give Jon a cheap cop out.

[Taemlyn Blackfyre]

On topic, I've always favoured Jaehaerys or Daemon as Jon's true Targaryen name.

As for legitimacy, Jon has Robb's letter and I'm betting that further answers will be found in the crypts on Lyanna's grave.

And if Jon were to wed Dany, he'd have earned the name of Targaryen twice over. If Stannis and Robb can offer him legitimacy as a Stark, then surely when his true parentage comes to light it is the same thing! Right?

[Spastic Plastic]

"Dany Boy" would fit him, since if he marries Dany and becomes King, I can't see Dany letting him rule instead of her.

"Viserys IV the Mummer's Dragon" would also be a good Targaryen name for Jon.

[WinterBreeze]

I doubt he'd take a new name, personally but something like

Jaehaerys III Targaryen

Jaehaerys III Iceblood

Jon I Stark

Jon I Targaryen

Jon I Iceblood

I think he'd keep Snow though,

1 - He has accepted his Bastard-ness

2 - To keep people from asking questions about why Jon is banging his Aunt. (What JonDany? Thats absurd!)

[Lord Varys]

If Jon is a Targaryen by birth, he is no bastard. So it makes no sense to keep the name 'Snow'. Especially if ascends the Iron Throne or marries the Queen on the Iron Throne, Daenerys Targaryen. And as a Targaryen an incest marriage is to be expected of him. Although I doubt he would marry Dany if he would not fall in love with her. As he was not raised as a Targaryen he might have serious doubt about an incestuous marriage. So it is even likely that his heritage is going to be revealed after he has fallen in love with Daenerys. Else he certainly would to what he can to develop no romantic feelings for his aunt.

[khkj]

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come." (NW Oath)

If Jon becomes king, he will have to break his oath. How could anyone follow him after that? I like the idea of R+L=J but I don't like the idea of Jon being king. I think he needs to keep his happy ass at the wall as a loyal member of the NW. I would like to think that he is Stark enough to take that duty seriously and do his job. He would definitely get more respect for that from me than if he dumps the NW to be king. I don't dislike Jon, but I really want him to keep his vows.

I haven't reread the series and it's been a while so I apologize for any holes or if I've misinterpreted anything, but since I've read these books I've had a strong feeling that Dany and Mellisandra are going to hook up at some point, and I do believe Rhaegar is Jon's father. Ok, so assuming Dany makes it to where Mellisandra and Jon are kickin it in the North, I'm sure by that point one of the Reeds will have gotten word to Jon that he's Targ. Dany will know that he's Stark blood, and will probably want to kill him for being blood of her enemy Ned Stark. Mellisandra worships R'hllor, and we've seen with the brotherhood without banners, that worshiping R'hllor has the power to bring people to life (unfortunately, as was the case for Catelyn, a character I was pleased was dead).

Jon would never break his oath, I'm sure of that, but the oath says, as the above poster points out, that it ends at death. If Dany kills him, then everyone explains to her that he's her brother and in fact a dragon and prime for marrying/alliance forging, then there will be an 'oh crap' moment and Mellisandra can ressurect him, and bam he is no longer an oathbreaker, right?

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Considering that King Aegon V named his heir Duncan after a hedge knight, there's no reason for Jon to have to change his name if he's discovered to be a Targaryen....they can have ordinary names just like anyone else.

The "maybe the NW will be dissolved because people will think it's not needed anymore" is ludicrous. After humanity has had the living shit scared out of them by a recent Other attack is the last time anyone would want to abolish the Watch. Some have said that maybe everyone would be satisfied that the Others would never return...how? How could that possibly be known?

It wasn't until the early 20th century (with far more advanced technology than Westeros has) that explorers were even able to reach earth's poles....not exhaustively search the entire continent of Antarctica for any sign of dormant Others (which Westerosi probably wouldn't even recognise, since they know so little...some underground horde of eggs? unique ice formations? A portal to another world that only opens every few thousand years?) just reach the poles and then rush back before they died from their privations. And even with current technology we can't easily come to definite conclusions about the extinctions of species. See the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker debacle from a few years back, or the discovery of the Vietnamese subspecies of the Javan Rhinoceros.

The possibility of people with medieval technology being able to conclusively prove a negative about the continuing existence of a race with unknown powers and abilities is frankly laughable.

However, could Jon conceivably be given a spacial royal dispensation freeing him from his holy oath? Sure, just like Jaime received a pardon for kingslaying. I'd expect him to have a pretty similar reputation as a result of it, though.

[KAH]

Gary Stu, the First of His Name(s).

[A wilding]

It wasn't until the early 20th century (with far more advanced technology than Westeros has) that explorers were even able to reach earth's poles....not exhaustively search the entire continent of Antarctica for any sign of dormant Others (which Westerosi probably wouldn't even recognise, since they know so little...some underground horde of eggs? unique ice formations? A portal to another world that only opens every few thousand years?) just reach the poles and then rush back before they died from their privations.

Indeed. It wasn't until the Pabodie Antarctic expedition of 1930-1 that the ruins of a prehuman city were first discovered on the Leng plateau.

[Gurkhal]

Indeed. It wasn't until the Pabodie Antarctic expedition of 1930-1 that the ruins of a prehuman city were first discovered on the Leng plateau.

Very true. Its a sad thing there were no survivors from the Starkweather-Moore Expedition of 1933 which attempted to further investigate the city. We can only hope that future expeditions will be more successful. :)

[Toe]

Considering that King Aegon V named his heir Duncan after a hedge knight, there's no reason for Jon to have to change his name if he's discovered to be a Targaryen....they can have ordinary names just like anyone else.

The "maybe the NW will be dissolved because people will think it's not needed anymore" is ludicrous. After humanity has had the living shit scared out of them by a recent Other attack is the last time anyone would want to abolish the Watch. Some have said that maybe everyone would be satisfied that the Others would never return...how? How could that possibly be known?

It wasn't until the early 20th century (with far more advanced technology than Westeros has) that explorers were even able to reach earth's poles....not exhaustively search the entire continent of Antarctica for any sign of dormant Others (which Westerosi probably wouldn't even recognise, since they know so little...some underground horde of eggs? unique ice formations? A portal to another world that only opens every few thousand years?) just reach the poles and then rush back before they died from their privations. And even with current technology we can't easily come to definite conclusions about the extinctions of species. See the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker debacle from a few years back, or the discovery of the Vietnamese subspecies of the Javan Rhinoceros.

The possibility of people with medieval technology being able to conclusively prove a negative about the continuing existence of a race with unknown powers and abilities is frankly laughable.

However, could Jon conceivably be given a spacial royal dispensation freeing him from his holy oath? Sure, just like Jaime received a pardon for kingslaying. I'd expect him to have a pretty similar reputation as a result of it, though.

Maybe a King can take whatever name he wants but that is not necessarily a good move. "Jon" will always be associated with the bastard nobody. A Targaryen name connects him with the old dynasty. There is a reason every Roman emperor added Caesar to their names.

How would anyone know that the Others are gone? In some way that is a philosophical question. How can we know anything with certainty? How do we really know the sun is going to rise tomorrow? We could however get strong evidence if, say, Greenseer/the Children of the Forest/Green Men said the Others were gone, or if their homeland/lair/coffins/whatever were captured and no Others were found remaining.

As a side point we do not know that the Others are a separate species as compared to, say, undead humans like vampires or liches or something similar.

Anyway, if the Wall goes, which seems likely, then the NW is nothing more than another Westeros small military force with nothing making them more military valuable against the Others than any other small force of similar size. So even if one is worried about the Others then there is still no reason to have the NW as compared to an ordinary army unit that can be used for more purposes. That the NW has remained for so long is not because the threat of the Others, which few people south of the Wall believed in anymore, but because the Wall prevented colonization of and cultural exchange with the northern lands making the Wildlings a threat. With the Wall gone and the Wildlings killed/settled to the south/colonized/civilized that motivation will be gone.

[Jon Blackfyre]

Even though my name may have you all believing this is a lie, I don't think Jon is a bastard, and I don't think he needs to change his name.

First of all, I do believe that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. That makes him Jon Targaryen, which is what I would have made my forum name if it wasn't already taken.

Second of all, I don't believe he will be the king, or even survive the war with the Others. I think the bittersweet ending we have been promised is this. Jon and Dany fall in love during their battle with the Others. Somehow Dany becomes pregnant with Jon's son, but during the final confrontation Jon is killed, or sacrifices himself to save Dany. Then, Dany has to go on ruling without her husband and the father of her child... bittersweet.

Yes yes, I know, Mirra Maz Dur said Dany will never have children again... but there's always been debate about if that was really true or not.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Anyway, if the Wall goes, which seems likely, then the NW is nothing more than another Westeros small military force with nothing making them more military valuable against the Others than any other small force of similar size. So even if one is worried about the Others then there is still no reason to have the NW as compared to an ordinary army unit that can be used for more purposes.

The difference between any ordinary army and the NW is the exclusive lifetime commitment that it's members take on. They're not supposed to go and fight in petty wars or get incolved in political squabbles or have divided loyalties based on kinship. They're supposed to be eternally vigilant, keeping watch for any sign the Others might return. That's why they were set up in the first place, rather than those ancients blithely relying on "ordinary army units".

That the NW has remained for so long is not because the threat of the Others, which few people south of the Wall believed in anymore,

The Others are almost certainly the reason a 700 foot wall of ice was built, which in turn contributed to the endurance of the NW. And memories of the Others probably contributed a very great deal to the endurance of the NW for the first few thousand years after the Long Night.

[the average Other]

There's something I've been wondering. If King Robb legitimized Jon, is the legitimation valid whoever Jon's parents turn out to be? I'm picturing a scenario where Dany takes the Iron Throne, acknowledges Robb's kinghood for political reasons, thus making all Robb's degrees legal, only to find out that King Robb had legitimized a Targ bastard who now has a better claim to the Throne than Dany herself and freed him of his oaths...

That could get nasty.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

There's something I've been wondering. If King Robb legitimized Jon, is the legitimation valid whoever Jon's parents turn out to be? I'm picturing a scenario where Dany takes the Iron Throne, acknowledges Robb's kinghood for political reasons, thus making all Robb's degrees legal, only to find out that King Robb had legitimized a Targ bastard who now has a better claim to the Throne than Dany herself and freed him of his oaths...

That could get nasty.

I'm thinking that Robb's legitimization is a legal document specifically saying something like "Jon Snow, the bastard of Eddard Stark, will now be known as Jon Stark, son and heir to Winterfell and all her holdings..." etc. So no, I don't think there's some kind of blanket legitimization that would allow Jon to take the Targ name instead of the Stark name (if he is in fact the bastard of Lyanna and Rhaegar). In fact the only consequence of the discovery that L+R=J would be that Robb's legitimization of Jon would be nullified since the "Bastard of Eddard Stark" part would no longer be true.

Of course the sticky situation you bring up could still happen if Jon is actually the trueborn son of a married Rhaegar and Lyanna. I'd prefer a rivalry/uneasy alliance between Dany and Jon to the kind of sappy love story Jon Blackfyre proposes :stillsick: so it's an interesting idea.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

The significant aspect is that Jon's legitimisation will only be accepted by those who consider Robb to have been a true king, who therefore had any authority to legitimise bastards. That excludes everyone who accepts Tommen or Stannis as the rightful king (perhaps the Ironborn don't care one way or the other, but the first two factions view Robb's attempted secession as illegal and treasonous). Now that his kingdom has been smashed, that's a steadily decreasing number of people.

[Thoheeks Bili]

I vote for Aejon the first. :thumbsup:

[feardeathbywater]

The difference between any ordinary army and the NW is the exclusive lifetime commitment that it's members take on. They're not supposed to go and fight in petty wars or get incolved in political squabbles or have divided loyalties based on kinship. They're supposed to be eternally vigilant, keeping watch for any sign the Others might return. That's why they were set up in the first place, rather than those ancients blithely relying on "ordinary army units".

Good call. They seem to have a great deal in common with the Military Orders of the crusades, except that they are not expected to make/hold conquests. These were the only true standing armies in Europe during the middle ages; and like those organizations most of the Watch is support structure (though like a modern army, everyone is trained to fight.) There is also a very real parallel to monastic societies, with Castle Black at least functioning much like a monastery and LC Mormont as an abbot. Which fits with them being quasi-Templars or Sword Brothers.

Was it the Hospitalliers that dressed in black?