What was the single most stupid decesion any character made?

[AvengingAryaFan]

I always thought that Robb was too afraid to tell Edmure the plan. Once he tells Edmure, Edmure tells his bannermen, they tell their bannermen/soldiers, and by that point some easily placed spy could figure out everything and report to Tywin.

Perhaps you're right. Funny thing, though - I'm pretty sure Black Walder was fully informed of Robb's plans, as anything less would have been insulting to the then-crucial Frey alliance.

So Tywin was almost certainly aware of Robb's intentions. Many posters have remarked that Robb would never have expected Edmure to seriously impede Tywin; and indeed, Edmure should not have been able. Brienne called it correctly: Tywin was merely brushing the fingertips of his army toward the west. I believe that was to give the appearance of interest, and thus keep Robb busy preparing ambushes into which Tywin would not walk, thereby allowing time to get the RW ducks in their rows.

Had Robb and his advisors been more brilliant, they should have been wondering about the ease with which Tywin was discouraged from going west. Why would Tywin NOT have wanted to go west to protect Lannisport? Had it dawned on them that an important possible reason was because Tywin knew what Robb was planning, they might conceivably have realized there was a spy high in their ranks. But would it have dissuaded them from attending the RW?

[Rinso]

I think that Tywin was so easily discouraged from going west because of the fact that he had to go to King's Landing ASAP. Stannis was just laying siege on the city at the time, remember. Nothing was more important for the Lannister cause than saving King's Landing along with Joffrey and Tommen, not even Lannisport.

As for a spy high in the ranks of Robb's host... I haven't heard of that so far. Is Black Walder supposed to be that spy? I'm not sure I buy into that. IIRC, the Freys were absolutely loyal until that innocent Westerling thing.

[Ryan_]

Something tells me he would have killed her no matter what she said.

Quite possibly. But he killed her with tears in his eyes, so I think if she had chosen her words more carefully there might have been a chance. Tyrion is something of a romantic after all.

[evanesco75]

As far as stupid decisions go:

Ned underestimating Cersei. Especially considering how venomously Robert spoke of her. Ned should have been perceptive enough to understand just how dangerous she could be. He saw her get hit in the face and still maintain her dignity (badge of honour); he knew Jamie was fierce and violent and unpredictable, and that he was obviously in love with his sister and could retaliate.

Ned should've been able to realize the possible repercussions, and to me his confidence that Cersei would quietly slip away into the night was just too unjustified.

Robb's marriage. Colossal stupidity, not to mention selfishness. He owed his own men much more. Cat did a brilliant job luring Frey to their side, and stupid Robb squandered it for some p***y. Not cool.

And I loved Robb, so it's doubly infuriating.

Another one: Baelor locking up his hot sisters so he wouldn't feel horny. Yuck. Get your own prick cut off if it's such a problem, dude. Then again, it ain't as stupid as drinking wildfire to become a dragon.

One interesting point: how many stupid decisions were organic and In Character, and how many served as Deus Ex Machina? Certainly, Ned telling Cersei fit with his noble character, and Robb's wedding can be chalked up to immaturity and a misguided sense of nobility.

Are there other stupid decisions that seem intended purely to advance the plot or generate a particular outcome, and hence don't seem to fit as naturally with the character? For me, Robb neglecting to tell Edmure of his entire plan seems one such DM. Whatever Robb was, he was a pretty good general/commander. I would have expected him to share his plans with his circle fully, so they'd know exactly what the vision was, and how far they could stretch within it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Horza,

I'm not promoting a minimalist view, I'm suggesting that Edmure's maximalist interpretation wasn't the default position and its success not the certainty that it appears post facto.

In the wake of the Golden Tooth Robb and Blackfish likely didn't even consider that Edmure's defence of the crossing would be effective. In which case it wasn't necessary to be explicit in their orders which as you point out would cause Edmure to lose face in the eyes of his bannermen. It's one thing to be worsted by Tywin's superior numbers, to be seen to hide is another altogether.

Should they have taken another tack and made a big show of cutting Edmure into their secret plans, cooked up a cover so he could be seen to resist without actually impeding Tywin? - in hindsight sure, but at the time Edmure was an encumbrance whose tactical and strategic acumen was demonstrated at Golden Tooth and in subsequent Riverlands battles, a figurehead whose place in their war plans was on the board with the other pieces.

Not cluing Edmure in on the most important strategic goal of Robb's campaign in the west was foolhardy at best. This is Robb's (and possibly the Blackfish's) mistake, not Edmure's.

AvengingArya,

If Black Walder was spying for Tywin, how was he communicating with Tywin? Wouldn't a Maester have told Robb or somone else about the communications Walder was sending to Tywin in Harrenhal?

[HT Reddy]

I always thought that Robb was too afraid to tell Edmure the plan. Once he tells Edmure, Edmure tells his bannermen, they tell their bannermen/soldiers, and by that point some easily placed spy could figure out everything and report to Tywin.

I'm not sure that the plan would be complex enough that it would matter if Tywin knew. Robb doesn't have any secret forces in the west, so Tywin already knows what he'll be facing and thinks he can win anyway. Knowing that Robb wanted him to get through wouldn't change anything.

[cybroleach]

I'm not sure that the plan would be complex enough that it would matter if Tywin knew. Robb doesn't have any secret forces in the west, so Tywin already knows what he'll be facing and thinks he can win anyway. Knowing that Robb wanted him to get through wouldn't change anything.

I've always wondered about this too. Tywin certainly wasn't going to be suprised by Robb here and as for a trap, they'd be in the Westerlands and Tywin might know that local pretty well. Either Robb had something pretty snazzy for Tywin here or he was making a weak plan.

[Mr Fixit]

I've always wondered about this too. Tywin certainly wasn't going to be suprised by Robb here and as for a trap, they'd be in the Westerlands and Tywin might know that local pretty well. Either Robb had something pretty snazzy for Tywin here or he was making a weak plan.

I think Robb knew that time was working against him. The best bet was to force the confrontation sooner rather than later, before a) the Lannisters had a chance to re-organize after Golden Tooth, b ) Tywin recruited additional allies (Tyrells, as it turned out).

Had Robb's plan worked, Lannister armies would effectively be destroyed.

[AvengingAryaFan]

If Black Walder was spying for Tywin, how was he communicating with Tywin? Wouldn't a Maester have told Robb or somone else about the communications Walder was sending to Tywin in Harrenhal?

I only have circumstantial evidence that Black Walder was a spy, and without a reread I can only speculate about how he might have managed communications. I could guess that a page might have carried a letter to be sent by a Frey raven from the Twins.

Of course, if any communication was known it would have been all up for Black Walder. But Freys learn treachery with their mother's milk - consider their Lord of the Crossing "children's game". I seem to recall a later controversy b/t Black Walder and a true-born Frey (during the seige of Riverrun), with the latter complaining about Black Walder's duplicity. To be duplicitous even for a Frey is quite an accomplishment.

Rinso: the reason Tywin didn't seriously try to cross to the west could instead be that he was expecting Stannis to attack KL; except then I don't see why he'd have bothered to engage Riverrun at all.

[RSasoiaf]

I like to consider the chance that Tywin was a lot more in control. That he was just demonstrating before Edmure and that was why Edmure could stop him. It was more Tywin not wanting to fully go at it and not really Edmure defeating Tywin.

On this theory we have no proof that Tywin´s force was seriously damaged against Edmure. We just have Edmure suposedly pulling a nice defensive effort. But it really seems Tywin was not really trying.

Now question is:

Was Tywin in anyway scared by Edmure? Was he reacting to Rob´s full plan as he acurately perceived it all? Or was he simply reacting to Renly/Stannis threat, keeping himself as a reserve ready to strike wherever he would be needed most?

I think it was more a combination of the last 2 and less Edmure.

Also, could Robb plan work if Edmure just let Tywin move not even putting up a fight? Not sure....A full strength Tywin could be quite an even match for Robb. But in all fairness, we can assume Robb thught he could do it with or without Edmure.

But the real wildcard here was Tywin....and i think we are all underestimating is strategic skill. What he did in the end, seems like a sound plan from the start. He showed some force at Riverrun, leading everyone to believe he was now weak and in disarray.....just to show up against Stannis totally by surprise. It seems quite sound as his top priority should be to hold KL, deal with the Baratheons while seeking other powerfull allies. The North could wait and we know he had other plans going on rather then facing Robb in battle. He did underestimate Robb as a tactical comander at the start, but he was no longer doing that.

[TrackerNeil]

Should they have taken another tack and made a big show of cutting Edmure into their secret plans, cooked up a cover so he could be seen to resist without actually impeding Tywin? - in hindsight sure, but at the time Edmure was an encumbrance whose tactical and strategic acumen was demonstrated at Golden Tooth and in subsequent Riverlands battles, a figurehead whose place in their war plans was on the board with the other pieces.

He was a figurehead Robb and Brynden left in charge of the defense of the Trident? A figurehead expected to properly interpret a vague command with reference to an undisclosed strategy? Is that the kind of figurehead you mean?

Seems to me if they regarded Edmure as such as dunce they should not have expected him to guess at their plans; instead, they should have given him detailed, precise instructions rather than relying on his judgment.

[evanesco75]

Poor judgment, if you ask me. Either tell Edmure the whole truth. Or, give him very specific instructions do he doesn't step out of line. Seems Robb did neither. He just assumed Edmure wouldn't take the initiative, when he should've realized his uncle's penchant for gallantry and glory.

[Rakka]

Penchant for being soft-hearted and wanting to protect his smallfolk. Outrageous!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Doomsðay,

An actuve defense against an aggressive adversary is hardly a grasp for laurels and glory.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Doomsðay,

An actuve defense against an aggressive adversary is hardly a grasp for laurels and glory.

[RSasoiaf]

Robb was just too young and not someone like Tyrion....he did quite a few mistakes in his planning:

- trusting Bolton with a high responsability....wise move! he was surely the most trusted bannermen around. the guy had crazzy MF written on him from the beggining.

- Requesting the Greyjoys to help him...even believing they would help him...and specially sending Theon safe and sound into their hands. Ahhh.....Balon and Asha must have been close do die laughing from this move. It´s so....optimistic to say the least. You have a people who already rebelled against you in the same generation, the same ruller is there, you hold his son captive precisely in order to try and stop him from stricking again.....yeah! looks just the kind of guy that will send you help and some nice gifts ;)

- Going West trying to pull Tywin away from KL and just waitting that Tywin would follow because he would. well...even without Edmure there. This plan was again optimistic. He needed something to push Tywin forward, he had to make a real threat to Casterly Rock or be sure he had such a control on the Riverlands that Tywin could not survive there and had to move. But has we know....Tywin had Harrenhall at the begginning and had Gregor running free all around. It was quite clear the North could not survive in the riverlands better then Tywin....so why would he leave? He could have just hold Edmure sieged and wait there, starving Riverrun and further damaging its lands. Thing is, Robb´s plan only works if he can do superior damage to Tywin´s own base. If he fails to pose that threat, Tywin can do as he pleases and as he did.

But truth be said, Robb didnt have that much chance to start with. He had to be the perfect leader and just align quickly with some Baratheon.....he was just a young inexperienced leader and he showed exactly that. He had potential, but there was no time to learn.

[evanesco75]

Penchant for being soft-hearted and wanting to protect his smallfolk. Outrageous!

Point taken. But that's just it. Throughout the series, very few men of status have shown that sort of concern and while laudable, it seems a touch impractical.

Doomsðay,

An actuve defense against an aggressive adversary is hardly a grasp for laurels and glory.

I was referring more to Edmure's general personality, and thinking of Cat's dismay when she realized he was sheltering all manner of smallfolk within Riverrun. That's the fascinating bit for me: being good=being foolish time and again in GRRM's universe. Art imitating life, IMO. Good intentions aren't exempt from crappy results in real life either. I love that GRRM takes this approach but at the same time, I hate it *if that makes a modicum of sense*

[Manakhkubar]

- trusting Bolton with a high responsability....wise move! he was surely the most trusted bannermen around. the guy had crazzy MF written on him from the beggining.

I don't think that was a stupid decision. Bolton was a pretty good commander for the task Robb gave him, maybe the best there was. I don't see any other. Bolton turned cloak when Robb had lost the war and didn't try to beg pardon from Tywin. The problem here was not to "trust" Bolton with a task that he fulfilled pretty well, but not to realize he was fighting a lost cause.

- Requesting the Greyjoys to help him...even believing they would help him...and specially sending Theon safe and sound into their hands. Ahhh.....Balon and Asha must have been close do die laughing from this move. It´s so....optimistic to say the least. You have a people who already rebelled against you in the same generation, the same ruller is there, you hold his son captive precisely in order to try and stop him from stricking again.....yeah! looks just the kind of guy that will send you help and some nice gifts ;)

That one was naive, yes. But he didn't know the Greyjoys, he simply spekulated they would be rational. Which they simply are not. He didn't take into account their "judean people's front" attitude of committing collective suicide to stun their opponents.

He could have just hold Edmure sieged and wait there, starving Riverrun and further damaging its lands. Thing is, Robb´s plan only works if he can do superior damage to Tywin´s own base. If he fails to pose that threat, Tywin can do as he pleases and as he did.

Actually Tywin fell for it. If not for Edmure, Stannis would have taking Kings Landing. That would have allowed Robb a way out of the dilemma.

[mummer]

I don't know if my earlier comment about Edmure just didn't catch anyone's eye, or if it was just way off base and not worth responding to-- maybe I'm just confused. But, briefly: it sure looked to me like Edmure exceeded his authority in a really blatant way, because in order to have enough troops to take the fight to Tywin, he actually removed the garrison from the Twins.

Those troops weren't supposed to be under his command, and Robb had explicitly told them to stay there to protect the Twins and to keep an eye on the Freys. Catelyn reminded Edmure of this, and Edmure basically said "never mind what Robb said, I think this is more important than the Twins." Edmure didn't just fight Tywin more aggressively than Robb expected-- he rearranged Robb's army! Am I wrong?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mummer,

Edmure was lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Unless Robb told him not to do something it was within his authority to move those troops to aid in the defense of Riverrun.

Mana,

What did Edmure do that was inconsistent with Robb's orders?