Devastated by the...

[Gnomestress]

There really should be a series of Red Wedding reaction videos... somewhat similar to a 2 girls one cup reaction video. I hope the series is even more subtle with its hints, as they will be even more obvious on screen, IMO. I can't wait for people watching the series on TV to react to it for the first time, as I can watch it unfold.

My hubby has read the first book but will be watching the series with me on HBO before he gets to that part. (He's a slow and infrequent reader) I cannot wait to watch his reaction. Bwaha. :thumbsup:

Edited for word vomit. Oi.

[LadySansa]

I was very sad about Catelyn too. I really felt bad for her, her husband had his head chopped off, her younger sons are dead, her younger daughter is presumed dead, and her eldest daughter is being held captive. Then she has to watch her eldest son die in front of her eyes and then she dies. She dies thinking her whole family, all her children, are gone. Her father just died, her sister is crazy, and her brother has his own host of problems. It's really sad and I hope someday her mind is put at rest. To watch your son get murdered in front of you is terrible. I hope maybe one of her children can contact her and let her know who is still around.

I liked Catelyn and felt bad for her. She was desperately trying to keep her world together while it was uncontrollably falling to pieces. I know some people hate her for what she said to Jon but I don't. She was grieving and also, honestly, why should she like her husband's bastard child, a bastard child that would be the result of infidelity? I wouldn't have allowed him to be raised under my roof. It's a mean thing to say but there are a lot of other things people do (Jaime throwing a boy out of a window, Tyrion raping his wife after she was gang raped) that people tend to gloss over. I like Jamie and Tyrion too though. I mean, Cersei is one of my favorite characters and she is a mega bitch.

[crispy]

Wow, thanks for all the responses everyone! I'm really glad I found this group ... although admittedly I am trying to stay outta the forums so I don't spoil anything coming up. I think part of Martin's genius as a writer is that he takes risks many other authors would not take. I'm excited to see where else he goes.

Last night I finished reading Joffrey's wedding. That certainly lessened the sting a bit of losing Robb and Cat. Remind me to never get married in Westeros.

PS: I love the idea someone posted of Red Wedding reaction videos! I sorta feel for anyone who watches the TV show with me because I'll probably be saying over and over again, "You won't believe what happens next!"

[evanesco75]

I know exactly what you mean about Joffrey's wedding! I was cheering, I kid you not. I swear, I could not sleep properly for 3 days after reading the RW. I was so horribly upset and sad.

Then, after reading about Joffrey, I felt reborn (lol, drama!). But really, till that point it felt like the better characters were destined for endless misery, whereas fuckwits like Joff sailed through merrily (faceful of dung notwithstanding). Seeing him die, and so terribly and painfully was exquisite.

Martin, you've turned me into a sadist. And I love it!

RE Cateyln, I never disliked her, and I think part of what made her POV so good was how vividly her love for her family came through. Even during the tensest moments, her mind would wander to Ned, or Bran, or Arya... her pain was constant, and she bore it with such dignity.

In fact, I think the very fact that her POVs were so emotional and rooted in her love for her family, sort of carried over that sense of worry and affection for them to me as well. Convoluted, but what I mean is: I felt one with her, worrying for her children and not herself because that's how she was written. Her agony during the RW was heartstopping. Her clawing her face is an image that won't leave me.

So I don't know, I don't feel it's about not liking Cat; it's about being invested in the same things she is. For me, anyway. :) That's why one of my most anticipated moments till the RW was her eventual reunion with Arya. I was so gutted that didn't happen and for a while, I felt very cheated.

[Blackfish Blues]

Wow, thanks for all the responses everyone! I'm really glad I found this group ... although admittedly I am trying to stay outta the forums so I don't spoil anything coming up. I think part of Martin's genius as a writer is that he takes risks many other authors would not take. I'm excited to see where else he goes.

Last night I finished reading Joffrey's wedding. That certainly lessened the sting a bit of losing Robb and Cat. Remind me to never get married in Westeros.

PS: I love the idea someone posted of Red Wedding reaction videos! I sorta feel for anyone who watches the TV show with me because I'll probably be saying over and over again, "You won't believe what happens next!"

Welcome to Westeros, crispy! And Calenheri too, and all those who seem to be new arrivals. :grouphug:

Crispy, I completely understand you. When I began to read the saga I spoiled myself a lot, especially looking for fanart to visualize the characters. I came across a couple of Red Wedding pics and got the gist of what would happen. I even made an EPIC FAIL while spoiling myself, because I convinced myself the character who was quickly climbing my personal top ten - the Blackfish - would ALSO die at the RW. So in a way I was relieved when I actually got there...

Even having been spoiled, I found it a terrifically powerful scene. I was sorry for Cat. I have always liked her, warts and all, and I thought she still had much to say as the Stark matriarch. Then I found a reason for it - now the surviving Stark kids are completely alone. It's a step of their hero's journey.

I was less moved by Robb; what really disgusted me was

the profanation of his and Greywind's bodies

(I don't know whether you read that far, Crispy)

And of course there have been instances in other sagas (actually, TV sagas) where I was shocked by something that happened, to the point that I almost stopped watching. So I can understand what an effect the RW could have on an unsuspecting reader. My condolences.

I think that the RW finally drove the point home that in GRRM's world nobody is safe. And therefore we should not get attached to anybody. Of course, I failed miserably in that.

Also, if you take the fact that alot of people love Tyrion, who is described as being ugly incarnate, all this Roslin hate is just hypocritical. Or sexist, saying that it's ok for men to be ugly and not women. Maybe I should mention that on the sexism topic.

People hate Roslin? I was not aware of that. To me she seemed just a helpless pawn, too hapless and/or terrified to react to what was happening. I probably should head to the sexism topic.

I am a bit off topic here, but many times when Robb and the RW come up, we make the same points: there is no singular protagonist in the series, and hey, we never had a POV from him anyway.

On the first point that's true there is no singular hero to be sure-if there are even heroes of any number might be debatable. However I feel no less attached to Robb just because we had no POV from him. in someways, it almost makes it worse. I never had the chance to get in his head and truly find out how I felt about the poor chap. To me, I felt robbed (no pun intended) of getting to know a character that I was really looking forward to reading more of. I guess that's what "hurt" the most. I sometimes think GRRM writes his non POV's better than he does the POV's. see Kevan Lannister and Blackfish.

Word! About the Blackfish, of course, but also about GRRM's use of POVs. It's one of the most fascinating characteristics of his style, and one of the most exasperating, because he really influences our perception of the characters - and sometimes he fails, IMHO, giving POVs to useless people (some Greyjoys and Martells I know) and not to interesting people... but that's so very subjective.

Great point, Headless Ned. And there have been several amazing non-POV characters for me too. Robb tops the list, and Blackfish is a close second. I also really liked Renly, and Oberyn Martell. Especially the last one. He was intriguing and bad ass and then ***SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER***.

Again, glad someone else likes the Blackfish! BUT - I hate to play "spoiler police", but doomsday, you've dropped some plot points that Crispy may not want to know yet. Or maybe he does, so that he can paint a target on the wall and try to hit it next time he feels like throwing the book. :D

Spoiler: Jon Snow is the progeny of the inevitable Sandor-Sansa coupling, sent back from the post-apocalyptic future to change history and lead the NW in the fight against The Udders.

Nah. Jon is the future son of Scott Summers and Jean Grey. It is known.

[evanesco75]

Shit, sorry! I'll just go fix it :)

[Black Walder]

I'm surprised that the Edmure marrying the Frey girl was as horrifying to some people as the murder of Robb and Catelyn. Roslin was actually pretty cute, if I recall correctly.

Indeed. "Roslin's a pretty little thing, hardly stoatish at all." --Daven Lannister.

[inkasrain]

I reread the Red Wedding last night. I think what gets me most about the whole thing is how enormously and unnecessarily cruel it is. It's such an overwhelming, meaningless over-reaction. The carnage, the depravity, the depth of betrayal by sworn Stark allies is so far beyond any reasonable response to Robb's offense that it makes the whole situation very hard for me to process. It's like setting someone's house on fire because they scooped you to a parking spot--and that's just for the Freys. GRRM only knows how long the thrice-damned Boltons have been planning something like this, and if (but more likely, when) the Westerlings got in on the action.

Sigh. I have visions of revenge, but I can't bank on getting so much justice from these books.

[Errant Bard]

Killing an enemy king is hardly meaningless or an over-reaction.

[inkasrain]

I can't think of the carnage and desecration of the Red Wedding, the murder of hundreds of unarmed and unsuspecting guests, as anything but a bit of an over-reaction on the part of the Freys. Robb Stark was not an enemy king-- he was the king they had accepted and chosen to follow. A king they were deeply pissed-off at, no doubt, but still their king. The same applies to Roose Bolton, but without even the excuse of having been directly offended by Robb; definitely an over-reaction in my book.

[Dennai]

Killing an enemy king is hardly meaningless or an over-reaction.

But he was no enemy, he was an ally. Worse yet, he was their king.

And even when deciding to switch sides, I've found unnecessary and sick all the carnage. The Stark soldiers, isolated, leaderless, half-drunk and probably clueless to what was happening inside the walls, why were they massacred? Why to desecrate Robb's body? Hell, why to desecrate Catelyn's body?

I won't be satisfied with nothing short of a Castamere for the Freys. Mind you, I mean the destruction of their heirdom and oblivion for their name, not literal extinction of every single person who bear the name or live under its rule.

[Blood]

The Red Wedding is not about Rob slighting the Freys, or about Roose Bolton making a power grab, or even Tywin being Tywin behind the scenes. Rob lost his war on the most important front, in the eyes of those who mattered. Men like Walder and Roose go for what they believe will bring them and their house most glory and influence, honor is nice and Bolton's like them some Stark-skin cloaks but those are not the end goals, if continued support of Robb seemed likely to work out they would have stuck with it. If any single person could be "blamed" for the Red Wedding it would be Stannis for losing on the Blackwater or Melisandre for killing Renly.

[andy]

My first thread start was entitled "Damn you Martin!", or something similar. Everyone who had read the scene, knew exactly which one I was talking about.

[Errant Bard]

Robb Stark was not an enemy king-- he was the king they had accepted and chosen to follow. A king they were deeply pissed-off at, no doubt, but still their king.

But he was no enemy, he was an ally. Worse yet, he was their king.

No, he was not their king anymore, he was a rebel: They (both Freys and Roose) had allied with Tywin beforehand, reread Jaime's banter with Roose and Merret account of the planning of the event. It was cold calculation from Roose, but it was way more legitimate from the Freys: after all Robb bought them with the promise there would be a Frey queen and eventually a king with Frey blood, then he decided not to pay the price after using them. That's what happens when the contract has high stakes.

But yeah, sure he got tricked, just like Renly, Balon, Aerys, Drogo, Myrcella, Cersei or Joffrey (counting only kings, queens and heirs, or we could have more, like Ned, Theon, Tyrion or Mormont.) It's normal. And only shocking because he was the iconic good guy and we got Catelyn's PoV. Other than that, in the game of thrones, you win or you die, and he did not win.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I was caught off gaurd by the Red Wedding, i had heard about it, but i had t hought it was a Joffrey's wedding instead of Robb's. And also it was so sudden, onew minute everybody is having laughs and good times, then the next it'sd a bloodbath.

[Dalfiatach]

GRRM only knows how long the thrice-damned Boltons have been planning something like this

Quite some time by my latest reread.

Roose has spent quite a lot of time and effort getting rid of any Stark loyalists in his host. He sent a couple of thousand off to die pointlessly at Duskendale long before the RW. He arranged with Tywin when he was crossing the Trident on the way to the Red Wedding that other Stark loyalists would conveniently be the last to cross where they could be ambushed and destroyed by Gregor Clegane. He left any remaining loyalists behind to guard the Trident ford after that "accident", and arrived at the Twins with only Dreadfort and Karstark men.

Roose had already switched sides when Arya was serving him at Harrenhal, or possibly even before he arrived there.

[direkrikit]

I sorta feel for anyone who watches the TV show with me because I'll probably be saying over and over again, "You won't believe what happens next!"

Don't be that guy. That guy is a selfish douche that got to enjoy something and then - wanting to come across as cool and as an expert - ruins the story-telling and suspense built up.

If you do that, just tell them what happens instead of them wasting the time of reading/watching.

[The Anti-Targ]

When I read ASoS (which pre-dated my even knowing this forum existed, and well and truly pre-dated the publication of AFfC) I was labouring under the miapprehension that it was the third and last book in a trilogy. I mean it was such a huge book the publisher split it into two parts FFS, surely the trilogy was complete! More fool me.

So there I was, taken aback with the red wedding, and thinking how the hell is Martin gonna wrap this up in the remaining pages? I think at about 100 pages (or thereabouts) before the end of part 2 I was getting a sinking feeling about the story not finishing.

I wasn't devastated by the Red Wedding, well actually I was up until I found out who had survived, and then I wasn't so devastated and I'm not meaning Lady Stoneheart. However I did call in to question GRRM's parentage out loud, to no one in particular.

Now I think it was a master stroke letting everyone know that few people are guaranteed to make it all the way through, however any subsequent deaths come with very little shock value, to the extent that if Dany or Jon get killed off it will be greeted with a mild sense of annoyance (though with Dany I probably won't really mind, it's her dragons Westeros needs [temporarily] not her).

Now kill off 2 of the 3 dragons and that'll make people a bit nervous. But it'd solve the problem of who would be the other 2 dragon riders.

[Eyelesbarrow]

At this point, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that anyone can die. While the Red Wedding is a shocker, it is a game changer in the novels. And I can't wait which character will be off'ed next just to see what twist and turns it will produce in the series.

[lobes604]

So i got my friend to read asoiaf and occasionally he texts about things going on cause i pretty much shoved this series down his throat and today he got to the red wedding im just gonna write the conversation out exactly how it is

B: Holy shit !! rob and catelyn just got murdered

T:wtf right

T:dont get attached to anyone

B:did not fucking see that coming ,arya at the gate totally thought they would be reunited

B:if arya dies right now im gonna come and punch you in the face !!Leave me alone!

T:lol

B:"his axe took her in the back of the head" wtf !!!!!

B:she was my favriote character.if i have a daughter i want her to be like that

B:im almost in tears right now fuck

B: i have to put the book down now

LOL i thought it was pretty funny