World of Warcraft

[Inigima]

Yeah, you're right Kal. I see it in HoN and LoL too. It bugs me in this case because the people they're making fun of are doing just fine, just not as well as they'd like. And one of the people criticizing gets themselves killed constantly through failure to observe raid gimmicks.

I make fun of people all the time in WoW, but it's the people doing 500 DPS at level 83. Not the guy pulling 15k because he should be doing 17k.

[Solmyr]

I don't think i've ever been a bigger dick than i was when i played WoW. I'm pretty sure some of you fall into that category too.

I justify that behaviour in myself with the subscription fee. It's like a controlled anger management therapy with uncertain results.

Although I probably should treat my guildies with more respect, at least until it is decided who gets the legendary in 4.2. Then I can be my normal self again.

[Inigima]

Still no luck on Cho'gall :( I'm one of the two lowest DPS and I feel like I'm letting down the raid. This sucks.

[RaceBannon42]

Still no luck on Cho'gall :( I'm one of the two lowest DPS and I feel like I'm letting down the raid. This sucks.

How far are you getting?

If you are making it to p2 what you can do is tank him in the mouth of his throne. The all the tentacles spawn right next to him and are easy to aoe down.

Not like we are pro or anything, but we usually wipe to him several times a week. Its an easy fight to screw up.

[Weak With The Dawn]

If you claim otherwise, kindly fraps yourself trading random people in Stormwind/Orgrimmar 10,000gold each, and if more than 50% decline I shall agree that your opinion is indeed the 'normal cycle of gaming'. Also, I shall transfer to your realm, for it seems I would become a very rich man in no time in a place like this.

What a flawed argument.

I enjoy working, that doesn't mean I wouldn't accept the Lottery or a free gift of thousands of dollars.

I was talking to my guild just yesterday about how relaxing it can be to fish, farm herbs or other items during a lull between PvP and Heroic queues. There's plenty of time to do things that "require skill" that are not interrupted by farming gold or anything else.

[Inigima]

Heh... We actually got worse this week, Race. We had him down to 10% several times last week and usually got into phase 2 around the fourth adherent, but for some reason we were struggling to get in by the fifth adherent this week.

We changed a few things this week. Our other lock changed from destro to demo, and soloed the bloods -- a personal DPS loss, but allows the rest of us to stay on the boss for, presumably, a raid DPS gain. We also tried having our highest DPS mage stay on the boss 100% of the time, not even switching for adherents. I tried both afflic and destro, I performed better as afflic probably just because I'm more experienced with it. When I was destro I was constantly getting MCed at the worst possible times and it was causing Improved Soul Fire to fall off.

I'll mention the phase 2 tank location, the tentacles don't go down fast enough as is. I'm talking to the RL about two healing it but the raid is generally scared to try it.

[Greywolf2375]

I'll mention the phase 2 tank location, the tentacles don't go down fast enough as is. I'm talking to the RL about two healing it but the raid is generally scared to try it.

We've been using a disco/resto shammie to heal and it's been fine, so long as people don't stand in bad stuff.

With the switch to just the lock, is the adherent going down in time? Or are you running into the 2nd tank not getting back in time, add not getting down before festering blood?

We tank him at the space between the two front teeth - had a few times when we tanked it higher on the throne that one or more of the tentacles was actually in the throne and untargetable.

[Mack Kilimaro]

I'm talking to the RL about two healing it but the raid is generally scared to try it.

I know it sounds scary, but I agree that's going to be the answer for you. We just got our first Cho'gall kill last night and it was the first time we tried to two-heal it. It asks more of the two healers, obviously. Especially considering the potential Worship disruptions, so the rest of the raid needs to be even quicker about interrupting that stuff. You also probably will have to coordinate the mana management tricks they have available. For us, this came down to reminding our resto shaman that she should use Mana Tide or call for an innervate before she's down to fumes for mana - that way the cooldown will come up again. Once that was worked out, it was just a matter of getting the rest of the stuff right.

I don't understand how you're supposed to have enough DPS unless you two-heal. When we were three-healing, it took us four adherents, and we had to ignore the fifth. When we were two-healing, it took us three adherents and he pushed into phase 2 like just about when he was going to summon the fourth. The difference in not having to have that fourth wave of blood adds is astounding. Not to mention you will have more DPS for the phase 2 burn - because that damage will start building up as the corruption increases no matter how many healers you have.

We also killed Al'Akir last night, so 11/12 for us. It was great to finally put all the stuff together. Now to turn our attention to Nef. Then, dark phoenixes for all!

[Minaku]

Hi, I am the raid leader Ini is talking about.

There are a couple of things worth noting about our raid comp. First, we have zero melee dps. We run two mages, two locks, one hunter. Our heals are two pallies and a druid, so aoe healing can get a little hairy sometimes (though we have successfully two-healed Chimaeron in an amazing display of pure awesomeness). On our last attempt, which I feel is one of our better ones, I had the higher dps mage stay on Cho'gall constantly because we were getting too many adherent spawns. For some reason, our caster dps took a hit this week. Possibly because we ran without our DK tank, but I know the least about DKs. Our offtank this week was a pally, which I know a lot more about.

So that being said, one lock runs demo for add control so we can keep dpsing during the first couple of blood spawns, and the other is Ini who is either affllic or destro. I run fire, and my dps is shit. I do have an excuse, though; I am usually Dragon's Breathing mc targets, interrupting depravities, helping to aoe the blood and occasionally, I even dps Cho'gall. That being said, I'm incredibly upset with my performance and I need to be bringing my dps up. We'll start with hitting 13k. It's a running joke in raid now that I am always last on meters. I don't know if it's my rotation - I scorch more often, I scorch on the run, I scorch once during rotations to get critical mass up - or if it's because I am target switching constantly on account of my other three jobs.

I like the suggestion to get him up against a wall and we'll do so. Both the other mage and I can get a good impact-combustion going and we should be able to get them down real quick.

[Kalbear]

Wow, that's an ugly comp. I'm guessing two fire mages and marks hunter? Not that the hunter matters that much.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that you didn't put up Curse of elements on the boss when your DPS took a hit. Still, you're missing spell haste and crit for the entire raid, don't have any inspiration buff or 3% damage buff. I bet that if your resto druid went boomkin you'd have a kill almost immediately; you'd increase your DPS by like 10% per each person just from the buffs that gives.

I am usually Dragon's Breathing mc targets, interrupting depravities, helping to aoe the blood and occasionally, I even dps Cho'gall.

Okay, of these I don't see why any are going to be a DPS negative on you.

Dragon's breathing takes what, one GCD? And everyone's clumped up in one nice tight ball right behind Cho'gall, right? That should be easy. And that's the most harmful thing to your DPS. Killing adds should be a DPS positive. Interrupting depravities should be everyone's job. AOEing the blood should be a DPS gain as well for you (though if you have all of your ranged go and kill it that'll likely be a DPS win).

The biggest weakness with that comp is the interrupting on depravities in phase 2. With that lack of good interrupters it really hurts; no rogues, warriors, or shamen. But otherwise it's a totally fucking awesome group that should be able to cut through most of the issues without fail (though again - moonkin!) given how melee-unfriendly the fights are.

[Minaku]

Wow, that's an ugly comp. I'm guessing two fire mages and marks hunter? Not that the hunter matters that much.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that you didn't put up Curse of elements on the boss when your DPS took a hit. Still, you're missing spell haste and crit for the entire raid, don't have any inspiration buff or 3% damage buff. I bet that if your resto druid went boomkin you'd have a kill almost immediately; you'd increase your DPS by like 10% per each person just from the buffs that gives.

Okay, of these I don't see why any are going to be a DPS negative on you.

Dragon's breathing takes what, one GCD? And everyone's clumped up in one nice tight ball right behind Cho'gall, right? That should be easy. And that's the most harmful thing to your DPS. Killing adds should be a DPS positive. Interrupting depravities should be everyone's job. AOEing the blood should be a DPS gain as well for you (though if you have all of your ranged go and kill it that'll likely be a DPS win).

The biggest weakness with that comp is the interrupting on depravities in phase 2. With that lack of good interrupters it really hurts; no rogues, warriors, or shamen. But otherwise it's a totally fucking awesome group that should be able to cut through most of the issues without fail (though again - moonkin!) given how melee-unfriendly the fights are.

Yeah us two mages are the only interrupters. In an ideal situation we'd all be tied to each other so that whenever MC hits, we can dragon's breath and move on. The problem is generally during adherent spawns when shadow crash is happening and mc is happening all at the same time. We get split up, and because the other mage is dpsing Cho'gall the rest of us have to find the MC targets. If out demolock gets MCed during blood, and he and the hunter are on opposite sides of the room, and the hunter is also mced, that is a tough choice to make. I pick hunter so he can scattershot because anything is better than eating a full fear. And then there is the aoe.

Perhaps I need to be controlling how the raid moves during that phase so we can stay clumped up as much as possible for the MC. We attempted to before and it didn't work out that great. We always clump very well when we don't have an adherent.

We have a wartank and he does interrupt the first and third depravities. The other problem is if there is someone across the room I can't get to for MC control, my first twitch is towards counterspell. I should twitch towards sheep instead. At least I heal!

(there was that one time i dragons breathed and my target resisted. Later on vent my target said, "When you Dragon's Breathed and I resisted, I was like 'OMG I just OWNED Kaedra!'". And he did.)

[Kalbear]

We get split up,

Ah. Yeah, like you say that's a problem. Move as a group, with a raid marker on someone.

Cho'gall is, as our main tank described, time to go ass to mouth. You put your entire raid as tightly behind Cho'gall's fat ass as you possibly can. When the add spawns, the tank moves to grab him while the rest of the raid moves as a group to go get him. You don't separate from the group. Think of it as a horror movie. And the most crucial time to not separate (especially with that comp) is during blood spawns.

Heck, if you want ezmode here's what you do. Put your entire raid save the tanks in the dead center of the room. Don't move for adds, don't move for blood, don't move for anythiing. The tanks do all the movement. You just stand there and shoot shit. On bloods, everyone kills them because they'll have less space to move - but with that much ranged DPS and AOE they should die quickly if you do that. Clearly you don't do this for P2 - you want to clump tighter and against a wall - but you could do that for all of P1 and remove most of the MC issues as well as get awesome raid healing from the paladins.

If you have a warrior tank it's a lot easier. Especially if they're not on Cho'gall. Their mobility would help quite a bit, and you should be able to have them bounce around, shockwave when both mages are worshipping, and otherwise wreck things.

[Minaku]

Ah. Yeah, like you say that's a problem. Move as a group, with a raid marker on someone.

Cho'gall is, as our main tank described, time to go ass to mouth. You put your entire raid as tightly behind Cho'gall's fat ass as you possibly can. When the add spawns, the tank moves to grab him while the rest of the raid moves as a group to go get him. You don't separate from the group. Think of it as a horror movie. And the most crucial time to not separate (especially with that comp) is during blood spawns.

Heck, if you want ezmode here's what you do. Put your entire raid save the tanks in the dead center of the room. Don't move for adds, don't move for blood, don't move for anythiing. The tanks do all the movement. You just stand there and shoot shit. On bloods, everyone kills them because they'll have less space to move - but with that much ranged DPS and AOE they should die quickly if you do that. Clearly you don't do this for P2 - you want to clump tighter and against a wall - but you could do that for all of P1 and remove most of the MC issues as well as get awesome raid healing from the paladins.

If you have a warrior tank it's a lot easier. Especially if they're not on Cho'gall. Their mobility would help quite a bit, and you should be able to have them bounce around, shockwave when both mages are worshipping, and otherwise wreck things.

Thanks for the tips, Kal. I remember why marking didn't work - marks kept falling off because of DBM use. So I will just say we will move in x direction always.

If we're in the center of the room, the adds on steps will be too far away. Do we just kill them at one of the portals instead?

Never overestimate the abilities of our wartank. I don't think I've ever seen him heroic leap.

[Kalbear]

Just kill the adds at whatever max range you can get. Portals, wherever. I was thinking have the tank move them to max range along a line from where you are (with MDs, of course) and that's about all.

Shame about marking, but you should be able to remark yourself with a macro easily enough when you need to. Alternately, if you're doing the turret move you don't need DBM marks; always dragonfire on every MC unless you're MCed, and then the other folks handle it.

No heroic leap makes me sad. That's the best part of a warrior - the amazing mobility.

[Inigima]

For the record, Curse of Elements is always, always up. We're not that fail.

[Kalbear]

Prove it. Let's see the logs.

[Inigima]

Our demo lock is the one who usually runs WoL and he didn't run it last night. :(

[Minaku]

Yeah I'm not looking at the full debuff list... so I will take Ini's word for it. I'm looking at the debuff list to see living bomb, critical mass, ignite.

I keep thinking our MT should have more fun with tanking, you know? When it's add time, charge the add, bring him back around, if fester blood happens heroic leap right outside range of the adds as we're dpsing them down, intercept or intervene the OT on the way back. Bouncing around a large area is fun! We told him last night that he can help interrupt the eyestalks by bouncing around them with charge, intervene, heroic leap, and he was like nah... I can't do that.

Question: through careful (ie spamming) use of pally cds, is there any way he could possibly survive about 10 seconds or so during Fury of Cho'gall? In case something happens and the switch doesn't happen? I figure a pally tank can live for a little bit if everything is being used.

I realized I need to download the newest version of CombustionHelper so I can see my ignites. I've probably been combusting the baby ignites, and I need to be combusting the 5-digit ignites instead.

[Kalbear]

Ini, you clearly have some logs. Show those. That's a lot more useful and far more objective than most anything else.

Warriors should be having a fun, stressful time (as all tanks should) - but the most fun they can have is with movement. You should send your warrior this

. It's full-on win and makes me super envious as a bear, even though I get charge.

On Fury of Chogall - you can use aura mastery to mitigate a lot of it, and you can use mirror of broken images to mitigate about 30% of it. Between the two I'd think you could survive fairly reasonably, though it might make the healers life a bit suck. That being said you can do that, but why would you want to? Just to avoid having one of your two tanks pick up adds at all?

[TerraPrime]

Guardian of Ancient King reduces 60% dmg over 12sec, and that's increased if the tank has 4pc set bonus.

On top, he can use Divine Protection, which reduces 20% dmg for 10sec.

In addition, he's got Lay of Hand as well as Ardent Defender.

Finally, he's got a bubble/taunt move.

So if he blows all his cds, yeah, no problem. Just an issue of what cds he got left. The Divine Prot is 1 min cd, so it should be useable fairly frequently. The Guardian of Ancient King, bubble, and Ardent Defender are both on 5 min cd so it needs to be timed. LoH is 10 min cd so it's a once per fight thing.