Ned + ? = Jon Snow

[Whatever]

I am reading GOT over again (3rd time) and just read the chapter where Ned dreams about the Tower of Joy. I don't know. His description of the happenings is so vague. It says Lyanna in her bed of blood but that is all. Nothing else but that line about her. That can mean anything. And it's all very trippy and not very specific. I do agree that there is no good reason for 3 of the kingsguard to be there unless it was for a major purpose. I just don't think Jon was the major purpose.

When you say Jon, you mean "Jon" or "whoever Lyanna's child might be"? Because bed of blood is a childbirth, what else could it be?

[Lord of Autumn's End]

I'm tired and my head hurts, so I could be wrong... but if R+L=J, wouldn't Jon be considered quite the looker? I mean I'm not great with genetics at the best of times, but if you have Lyanna Stark who was essentially beautiful enough to be the initial spark for a civil war, and Rhaegar Targaryen who was said to be an extraordinarily attractive man, wouldn't Jon have essentially won the genetic lottery?

Ygritte certainly warmed up to him pretty quickly, but I just found it odd that you never get a minor female character remark on it before he left for the Wall. Jeyne Poole or Beth Cassel for example.

That said, I am a firm believer in R+L=J, but I just thought that was a little odd. I might be wrong or it might come up later though.

[Dornish]

How did Lyanna die according to the official story? What did Ned tell people when he got back? "Well, she's dead." "Of what?" "Ummm... well... it wasn't childbirth I can tell you that!"

[Whatever]

Fever

I'm tired and my head hurts, so I could be wrong... but if R+L=J, wouldn't Jon be considered quite the looker? I mean I'm not great with genetics at the best of times, but if you have Lyanna Stark who was essentially beautiful to be the initial spark for a civil war, and Rhaegar Targaryen who was said to be an extraordinarily attractive man, wouldn't Jon have essentially won the genetic lottery?

Ygritte certainly warmed up to him pretty quickly, but I just found it odd that you never get a minor female character remark on it before he left for the Wall. Jeyne Poole or Beth Cassel for example.

That said, I am a firm believer in R+L=J, but I just thought that was a little odd. I might be wrong or it might come up later though.

I can't say about Jon, who does not judge himself and does not spend time with women at all (but Ygritte, as you said, and Mel, who

ADWD

is kind of flirting with him, but I don't think this is a good point

For what I understood about lyanna, she was not that beauty, the way cersei is. She was a pretty girl, whose greatest fascination was her wayward and spontaneous behavior. I think Cersei said this a couple of time (of course, she is not impartial) and we know that Arya and Lyanna are similar and Arya does not think to be retty (of course, you can say that Arya is still young and she needs to grow up, but Lyanna was 14 or 15 when she first met Rhaegal ...and I can see Arya becoming a pretty girl, but not in the traditional way in which Sansa is)

[A Redeemed Hound]

When you say Jon, you mean "Jon" or "whoever Lyanna's child might be"? Because bed of blood is a childbirth, what else could it be?

Yes, I mean whomever the child might be. I don't think it's Jon but of course it's anyone's guess at this point.

Bed of blood. It seems pretty obvious to me too that this is a childbirth thing but it really could mean anything. What if Rhaegar sacraficed her? Or she stabbed herself in grief and Rhaegar was trying to save her? I think childbirth makes the most sense but we really don't know for sure. We could all be barking up the wrong tree and there is no Lyanna + anyone.

As for another comment stated above, I also wonder what Ned told everyone on how Lyanna died. I don't remember reading about that. Maybe that is why Robert was so hell bent on killing each and every Tagaryen. I will let you know if I come across it in my re-read...which I PRAY will be my last before ADWD is announced. But that's a good question.

[Dornish]

As for another comment stated above, I also wonder what Ned told everyone on how Lyanna died. I don't remember reading about that. Maybe that is why Robert was so hell bent on killing each and every Tagaryen. I will let you know if I come across it in my re-read...which I PRAY will be my last before ADWD is announced. But that's a good question.

The thing I find interesting about this is that it isn't in Ned's character to impugn the honor of Rheagar, Dayne or the others by falsely telling everyone she was murdered so what else is left?

[SFDanny]

The thing I find interesting about this is that it isn't in Ned's character to impugn the honor of Rheagar, Dayne or the others by falsely telling everyone she was murdered so what else is left?

Telling people she died of a fever, which is exactly how Ned says she died. Whether or not that fever was associated with childbirth is still open to question, and something I think Ned would leave out in his recount of events to Robert.

edit: let me be clearer in my response. Ned tells us, the readers, that Lyanna is dying of a fever and in a bed of blood, what he actually tells Robert or others she dies of is unknown. My point is that he can easily tell them part of the truth, a very Ned like way of escaping lying about something, and leave out the part that either makes up something about others murdering Lyanna or that she died from complications of childbirth.

[Dornish]

Telling people she died of a fever, which is exactly how Ned says she died. Whether or not that fever was associated with childbirth is still open to question, and something I think Ned would leave out in his recount of events to Robert.

I wonder how I forgot that. Thanks.

[Whatever]

Yes, I mean whomever the child might be. I don't think it's Jon but of course it's anyone's guess at this point.

Bed of blood. It seems pretty obvious to me too that this is a childbirth thing but it really could mean anything. What if Rhaegar sacraficed her? Or she stabbed herself in grief and Rhaegar was trying to save her? I think childbirth makes the most sense but we really don't know for sure. We could all be barking up the wrong tree and there is no Lyanna + anyone.

As for another comment stated above, I also wonder what Ned told everyone on how Lyanna died. I don't remember reading about that. Maybe that is why Robert was so hell bent on killing each and every Tagaryen. I will let you know if I come across it in my re-read...which I PRAY will be my last before ADWD is announced. But that's a good question.

Rhaegal was dead at that point. How could he trying to save/ sacrificing Lyanna?

BTW, Ned told everybody Lyanna died because of a fever

[Lord of Autumn's End]

Rhaegal was dead at that point. How could he trying to save/ sacrificing Lyanna?

BTW, Ned told everybody Lyanna died because of a fever

You mean Rhaegar. Rhaegal is a dragon that hasn't been born yet.

[Restless]

....

Thanks to you and SFDanny for clearing the mist in my memory :)

What I'm saying - all the facts we have point to John being younger than Robb.

I can accept that Ned stepped aside from Cat once or twice.

But I can't accept that he'll do it with Wylla, instead of Ashara.

But if he did it with Ashara this doesn't compute with Daynes&Wylla relations after war.

Ergo Jon Snow is not his son.

PS: Weird theory.

We know the sword of Artur Dayne is waiting his true bearer at Starfall castle.

Do we have a thread about AD+L=J ?

:evil: :idea:

[A Redeemed Hound]

Thanks to you and SFDanny for clearing the mist in my memory :)

What I'm saying - all the facts we have point to John being younger than Robb.

I can accept that Ned stepped aside from Cat once or twice.

But I can't accept that he'll do it with Wylla, instead of Ashara.

But if he did it with Ashara this doesn't compute with Daynes&Wylla relations after war.

Ergo Jon Snow is not his son.

PS: Weird theory.

We know the sword of Artur Dayne is waiting his true bearer at Starfall castle.

Do we have a thread about AD+L=J ?

:evil: :idea:

I have heard that one too. Actually if Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara, it would be a great fit for Jon to get Dawn. I can see Jon giving his current sword back to Ser Mormont when/if he comes back to Westeros and joins the Watch. Jon would be fulfilling Lord Mormont's dying wishes then.

[Whatever]

I don't think Jon can be Arthur's son. What was Rhaegar doing meanwhile? ;)

You mean Rhaegar. Rhaegal is a dragon that hasn't been born yet.

mmm yes, i have some strange issues with the targ names... :)

[Restless]

I don't think Jon can be Arthur's son. What was Rhaegar doing meanwhile?

Obviously he was with Wylla :lol:

[tuthmoses]

well robert goes on about rhaegar raping her, and swearing that he will hunt down and kill every last child that has targ blood. The other version is love between R and L ... either way sexual relations between R and L were had. Its been said a hundred times but if Robert knew there was a targ baby he would as he said hunt him down and kill him. Then we have a bastard Jon who is the exact right age mysteriously turning with Ned after he comes back from the tower of Joy. With Ned terrified of revealing the truth about his parents even to his wife. Why? ... Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[A Redeemed Hound]

My true wish would be that Jon is the son of Lyanna and a drunken Robert but the timeline does not call for that at all. And I don't think Ned could have been so dedicated to a friend who raped his sister.

If Jon had ANY Targaryen trains at all (physical or non-physical) I would buy the R+L theory. But I don't buy it one bit. The fact that it is the most obvious and straightforward theory out there also leads me to doubt it.

If there is an offspring of R+L we have not seen it yet. Just my opinion.

[George Snow]

The thing I find interesting about this is that it isn't in Ned's character to impugn the honor of Rheagar, Dayne or the others by falsely telling everyone she was murdered so what else is left?

Remember that Ned does fill extreme guilt/shame/dishonor over keeping his promisesto Lyanna.

We don't know what these promises are, but we might be able to infer some things.

1. If Lyanna really died of a fever, and not from child birth, then Ned is telling the truth, and his only promise would probably have been to take Lyanna's body to Winterfell for interment.

2. If Lyanna had a child, but it was the product of rape, then Ned would not be impugning the honor of the rapists and his conspirators. And if she did die from childbirth, then couldn't you actually say that the rapist did murder her without actually lying. The child would still be in danger from Robert, so I could see Ned lying about this part to protect the child if Lyanna made him promise to protect the child. The questions here are: Is Jon the child? Howland Reed could possibly have the child of Lyanna. Why would Lyanna ask Ned to protect a child that was the product of rape? But we could see conflict in Ned about having to protect the son of his sister's rapist.

3. If Lyanna had a child, and it was not the product of rape, and she asked Ned to protect the child, and the child was the son of Rheagar, then we see that Ned has to lie about a child ever being born, because then there are too many questions that Robert would ask about the son of a Targ. And this lying could definitely be causing the conflict within Ned.

So while any of the 3 could be true, it seems like #1 wouldn't cause Ned to have the internal conflicts about keeping his promises to his sister. Whereas #2 and #3 would cause this agony.

Now is it possible that Ned had an affair with Ashara/Wylla, and that Jon really is the product of this affair, and that R+L=baby is somewhere else? It is possible. But I think it is less likely then R+L=J. N+A/W=J (35%); R+L=J (65%); R+L=baby(95%) That Dayne boy that talked to Arya could even be the product of R+L. Or its possible that he's named after his father. :wideeyed: Which would mean that Ned could have had an affair, in which case Arya was actually talking to her brother, and R+L=J.

GH

[Whatever]

naaa, it can't work. Ned was probably named after Ned, but he's too young (12 durnig ASOS)

Obviously he was with Wylla :lol:

:D

[Dornish]

Remember that Ned does fill extreme guilt/shame/dishonor over keeping his promisesto Lyanna.

We don't know what these promises are, but we might be able to infer some things...

I think 2 is fairly ludicrously unlikely. Robert seems the only man in Westeros who didn't have the utmost respect for Rheagar.

[Whatever]

Remember that Ned does fill extreme guilt/shame/dishonor over keeping his promisesto Lyanna.

Does he? I'm pretty sure the only situation in which he feelsregret is when he's in the dungeon (broken promises). The simplest explaination could be than Ned promised to Lya

a ) To protect Jon

(Im assuming R + L = J here)

b ) To tell him the truth when he was old enough.

now that Ned is probably going to die, he regrets he broke the promise(s). This is why he's so worried about jon and then asks to write a letter.

IMHO Ned wrote the letter and varys (mainly concerned about peace) didn't deliver it, but dany could get it eventually