Ned + ? = Jon Snow

[SFDanny]

To me this is very clearly saying that Ned knows Jon is the result of a man's lusts. And he just thinks of Jon and how he looks just like a younger version of himself. To me it is him admitting even he was weak at one time and his lust created a bastard.

While you are certainly free to project this meaning onto Ned's quote, the actual language of "my son" or its equivalent is entirely missing. The part where Ned thinks of Jon's face as "so like a younger version of his own" is explained by either Ned or Lyanna being one of his parents, so, so far, your whole argument is not very persuasive.

It would also help, for purposes of discussion, if you would deal with points others have raised instead of just stating your preferences for who you want to be Jon's parents. You created this thread to discuss N+A=J, N+W=J, and, perhaps, other variants, so kindly support your arguments for any of these ideas.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Note that Ned didn't even lie to Robert, at least in the instance we see live on stage.

If you read the interchange carefully, Roberts's actual question was something like "what was that serving girl's name?"

Robert himself qualifies it with the assumption that she was Jon's mother to indicate which serving girl he meant.

Ned carefully answers the actual question and leaves the false assumption unchallenged. That is the sort of not-lie that would perfectly satisfy Ned's honour and Robert is far too straightforward to even guess at (especially from his trusted friend).

I agree. I would like Ashara to be the mother but I really think it's just Wylla. Ned was weak for a moment in time and he had a bastard. Every other royal/high born in the realm seems to get it on with the staff, why not Ned?

Ned tells his king that his son's mother is Wylla. Edric was Jon's milk brother with Wylla, Jon's mother. Jon has all of Ned's attributes. His sense of honor, family, lust (Ygritte), etc. Ned's seed is not that weak. Jon, Arya, and Rikon have the Stark look. Robb, Sansa, and Bran have the Tully look.

I think either Ashara is alive with the offspring of R+L or Howland Reed has the offspring. Or maybe Wylla is/was more than just a servant?

[Manakhkubar]

Out of all of Ned's children, none of them really took his look. Arya alone had the Stark look and she looked more like Lyanna so the gene that probably goes back that ended up in Lyanna probably ended up in Arya as well. Ned's seed is weak when it comes to looks. So even if Jon was Ned's son, there was a higher chance that he'd take after the mother whether it was Ashara or Wylla. The fact that Jon looks like Ned actually works against the prospect of Ned being the father if you take that into consideration.

You are probably right. And, based on this argument, the fact that Ned looks like Ned actually proves that Ned must be fake! That would actually fit my theory perfectly that Jaqen H'ghar is Ned.

[chris.t.]

Compromise...by having an unacknowledged bastard lovechild? What? Thats Ashara not getting the man she's (supposedly) in love with, and Ned not not breaking his vows. Compromise is the opposite of that - its when both sides get something of what they want, I think.

I was being a bit flip with "compromise." I just meant that there are a number of scenarios in which I could see Ned giving into temptation to Ashara that would fit into my conception of Ned's character.

The thing is, we don't know a whole bunch about what Ashara was like. She was Dornish and may have had more Dornish ideas about love, marriage, and the rest. She may have tried to use Ned's previous promises to her to hold him, and succeeded briefly. She may have told Ned she didn't care if he were betrothed to another and that she would still be his lover anyway.

Who knows, really. If Ashara is Jon's mother, the only two people who know the exact details of how that happen appear to be dead.

[A Redeemed Hound]

You are probably right. And, based on this argument, the fact that Ned looks like Ned actually proves that Ned must be fake! That would actually fit my theory perfectly that Jaqen H'ghar is Ned.

I was kind of hoping the snotty remarks and jerky comments would be left off this thread. Please do not participate if you are going to just bother people. Nobody's theory or idea is better than anyone else.

I started this topic for those who are not believers of the R+L=J theory. Kindly stop reverting this back to that arena since there already is a thread for it. Thank you.

[A Redeemed Hound]

While you are certainly free to project this meaning onto Ned's quote, the actual language of "my son" or its equivalent is entirely missing. The part where Ned thinks of Jon's face as "so like a younger version of his own" is explained by either Ned or Lyanna being one of his parents, so, so far, your whole argument is not very persuasive.

It would also help, for purposes of discussion, if you would deal with points others have raised instead of just stating your preferences for who you want to be Jon's parents. You created this thread to discuss N+A=J, N+W=J, and, perhaps, other variants, so kindly support your arguments for any of these ideas.

My first post supported my idea that Ned is Jon's father. Please read it. I do not feel like repeating myself.

Also, the entire realm is under the impression that Jon Snow is Ned's bastard son. He most certainly had to say so when he first brought him back to Winterfell and everyone was wondering who the baby was. His guilt has kept him from speaking of Wylla. He said so to Robert and to his wife the one time she asked him. He said he would rather not speak of her since he disgraced his wife and his family.

I do find it odd that Jon has not been told anything about his mother all this time or that not a single whisper made it ot his ears regardless of who the mother is.

Also, is Wylla still alive or dead or do we just not know at this point? If she is the mother, I wonder if there is more to her than just being a servant.

[EvilClosetMonkey]

Couple of questions that spring to mind if one assumes Ned is Jon's father:

1. Why does Ned never think of Jon as his son?

2. If N+W, how does Ned meet up with a servant of a loyalist house 3-4 months into the rebellion?

3. If N+W, why does Ned refuse to tell Catelyn or Jon who the mother is?

4. If N+W, does it seem likely that Ned would not only be unfaithful to Cat but also sleep with one of Ashara's servant? If he's really in love with Ashara isn't that even more dishonorable that just cheating on his wife?

5. If N+A, how does Ned meet up with a lady of a loyalist house 3-4 months into the rebellion?

6. If N+A, why does Ned tell Robert that Wylla is the mother?

7. If N+A, why does Edric Dayne think Jon's mother is Wylla? Wouldn't a Dayne be in a position to know whether Ashara was the mother?

8. If N+A, why does Ned refuse to tell Catelyn or Jon who the mother is?

For the Lyanna + Brandon crowd, Brandon was dead before Jon was conceived. So, unless Lyanna saved Brandon's seed prior to her abduction/running off and then she found a way to preserve it and then she artificially inseminated herself 3-4 months into the rebellion, this is impossible.

For the Lyanna + Ned crowd, Ned would have to meet up with Lyanna 3-4 months into the rebellion. This would mean that:

1. Lyanna snuck away from the ToJ to have sex with Ned and then went back to the ToJ to hang out with Rhaegar.

2. Ned allowed her to go back to the ToJ after impregnating her.

3. Either no one in Ned's army noticed Lyanna ride up, find Ned, and then ride out again OR that Ned and Lyanna somehow had contact while she was at the ToJ and arranged a meeting place to have sex, after which they both went back to what they were doing before.

4. The Kingsguard believed that Lyanna and Jon were more worthy of being guarded than Viserys and Daenarys after the war effectively ended even though apparently Lyanna disappeared for a significant period of time and turned out to have conceived. A large part of the timeframe for the conception in this scenario is consumed by the time Lyanna would have spent traveling back to the ToJ after knocking boots with Ned. And apparently Rhaegar was playing poker with the Kingsguard while he waited for Lyanna to come back.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Couple of questions that spring to mind if one assumes Ned is Jon's father:

1. Why does Ned never think of Jon as his son?

2. If N+W, how does Ned meet up with a servant of a loyalist house 3-4 months into the rebellion?

3. If N+W, why does Ned refuse to tell Catelyn or Jon who the mother is?

4. If N+W, does it seem likely that Ned would not only be unfaithful to Cat but also sleep with one of Ashara's servant? If he's really in love with Ashara isn't that even more dishonorable that just cheating on his wife?

5. If N+A, how does Ned meet up with a lady of a loyalist house 3-4 months into the rebellion?

6. If N+A, why does Ned tell Robert that Wylla is the mother?

7. If N+A, why does Edric Dayne think Jon's mother is Wylla? Wouldn't a Dayne be in a position to know whether Ashara was the mother?

8. If N+A, why does Ned refuse to tell Catelyn or Jon who the mother is?

For the Lyanna + Brandon crowd, Brandon was dead before Jon was conceived. So, unless Lyanna saved Brandon's seed prior to her abduction/running off and then she found a way to preserve it and then she artificially inseminated herself 3-4 months into the rebellion, this is impossible.

For the Lyanna + Ned crowd, Ned would have to meet up with Lyanna 3-4 months into the rebellion. This would mean that:

1. Lyanna snuck away from the ToJ to have sex with Ned and then went back to the ToJ to hang out with Rhaegar.

2. Ned allowed her to go back to the ToJ after impregnating her.

3. Either no one in Ned's army noticed Lyanna ride up, find Ned, and then ride out again OR that Ned and Lyanna somehow had contact while she was at the ToJ and arranged a meeting place to have sex, after which they both went back to what they were doing before.

4. The Kingsguard believed that Lyanna and Jon were more worthy of being guarded than Viserys and Daenarys after the war effectively ended even though apparently Lyanna disappeared for a significant period of time and turned out to have conceived. A large part of the timeframe for the conception in this scenario is consumed by the time Lyanna would have spent traveling back to the ToJ after knocking boots with Ned. And apparently Rhaegar was playing poker with the Kingsguard while he waited for Lyanna to come back.

Dude, I have tears in my eyes from your post regarding B+L and N+L. Too funny to picture. That would turn the entire story into one moronic comedy. LOL!! Maybe ice was how they preserved Brandon's seed and fire was how they thawed it out. Or after they have sex, Ned says, "That was amazing. Now go back to Rhaegar's crib."

[EvilClosetMonkey]

Decided to make this post its own thread. Look for The Grand Stark Conspiracy, coming soon to a theater near you!

[Nausicaä]

Ned's seed is not that weak. Jon, Arya, and Rikon have the Stark look. Robb, Sansa, and Bran have the Tully look.

No, out of Ned's trueborn only Arya took after Ned. Rickon looks like his mother like the rest of them. So if Jon isn't Ned's, his seed is indeed weak.

[SFDanny]

My first post supported my idea that Ned is Jon's father. Please read it. I do not feel like repeating myself.

I'm not asking you to repeat yourself, and obviously I did read it. Repeating yourself would not respond to the point both corbon and I have made in response to your first post - that the quote you use doesn't mean what you say it means, or to be more precise it doesn't necessarily mean what you say it means. It could, but it could just as easily be a reference to Jon looking a lot like his Uncle Ned. You have yet to respond to this point other than to just say where you think the story is headed. Not a very supportive argument for your initial claim.

Also, the entire realm is under the impression that Jon Snow is Ned's bastard son. He most certainly had to say so when he first brought him back to Winterfell and everyone was wondering who the baby was.

Everyone agrees Ned publicly proclaims Jon is his bastard. This works with any of the theories and disproves none of them.

His guilt has kept him from speaking of Wylla.

Why would he let his guilt prevent him from telling Catelyn and Jon? Catelyn would be relieved to know if Wylla is just some one night stand Ned had on his campaign. She deserves to know. Jon REALLY deserves to know who his mother is. So why doesn't Ned tell them? Because he is too much of a coward to talk about how he strayed from his honor and duty? Because he is ashamed of Wylla? All of this transforms Ned into a egocentric ass too interested in saving himself from embarassment instead of doing what's right and telling Catelyn and Jon who is Jon's mother. It sure isn't because of his need to protect Wylla who is doing just fine telling anyone who asks that she is Jon's mom.

He said so to Robert and to his wife the one time she asked him.

Actually he tells Robert he, Ned, dishonored himself AND he dishonored Catelyn. So, how does it make sense to continue to dishonor Catelyn by refusing to tell her the name of the woman involved? And, in fact, he doesn't speak of his guilt to Catelyn; rather he frightens her into given up the source of Ashara's name and tells her that Jon is "his blood" and that is all she need ever know. Hell of honorable response.

He said he would rather not speak of her since he disgraced his wife and his family.

This is the excuse he gives Robert for not wanting to talk about Wylla, but it doesn't work as a meaningful reason for him to not to want to talk about this with Jon or Catelyn.

I do find it odd that Jon has not been told anything about his mother all this time or that not a single whisper made it ot his ears regardless of who the mother is.

Odd indeed. Now ask yourself why this is. Why has Ned really gone to such lengths to prevent Jon and Catelyn knowing the truth? Ned's vanity? Or is there a more likely reason such as it might be dangerous for Jon or Catelyn to know? Which fits better with the Ned we know?

Also, is Wylla still alive or dead or do we just not know at this point? If she is the mother, I wonder if there is more to her than just being a servant.

She is alive, or was last Ned Dayne knew. He certainly speaks of her as if she is alive.

btw, Woodbyrne, I know you are relatively new to this site and may not know of all its features. May I recommend a great resource to you? There is a page in the Citadel section of Westeros.org that deals with frequently asked questions - one of which deals with the details of Robert's Rebellion and another which deals with many of the theories around who are Jon's parents. I recommend everyone read them. I'd also ask that if you truly think N+W=J or N+A=J that you deal with some of the questions I raised in my earlier post about both theories.

[corbon]

I agree.

:rolleyes:

Go back and read what I wrote again. You don't actually agree - or at least you say the exact opposite below...

I would like Ashara to be the mother but I really think it's just Wylla. Ned was weak for a moment in time and he had a bastard. Every other royal/high born in the realm seems to get it on with the staff, why not Ned?

It isn't very other royal highborn, just some. And the probable reason why not for Ned is that it goes against his character, his thoughts and his actions.

It is still possible he had a moment of weakness (or a longer relationship), but with Ned it would almost certainly be with a relative equal - Asharra for example, rather than abuse his power and privilege. "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" and all that.

Ned tells his king that his son's mother is Wylla.

No, he does not. Read it properly. Robert asked a question, which was NOT "what is Jon's mother's name".

Ned answered the exact question asked, and ignored Robert's (false) supposition that the woman in question was Jon's mother. It is a standard technique for honestly/honourably misleading people which fits perfectly with Ned's honour.

This is not evidence for R+L=J. But it is even more so not evidence for N+W=J.

At best it is evidence that N+W= 'Jon cover story'

[corbon]

Nobody's theory or idea is better than anyone else.

Theories that have supporting text are better than theories without.

Doesn't mean they are true, but they are better.

I started this topic for those who are not believers of the R+L=J theory. Kindly stop reverting this back to that arena since there already is a thread for it. Thank you.

If people quote text and then misuse it to claim R+L=J cannot be true, then they are the ones who brought up R+L=J, not those who answer them.

When evidence is used to support other theories, that's interesting and great. That's why I'm reading this thread. It would be nice if some new connections were made, new evidence for different theories was posted.

[A Redeemed Hound]

She is alive, or was last Ned Dayne knew. He certainly speaks of her as if she is alive.

btw, Woodbyrne, I know you are relatively new to this site and may not know of all its features. May I recommend a great resource to you? There is a page in the Citadel section of Westeros.org that deals with frequently asked questions - one of which deals with the details of Robert's Rebellion and another which deals with many of the theories around who are Jon's parents. I recommend everyone read them. I'd also ask that if you truly think N+W=J or N+A=J that you deal with some of the questions I raised in my earlier post about both theories.

I have read the Citadel many times over. The parentage section of it regarding Jon Snow is still just based on the writer's assumptions and personal feelings towards it. It's a far cry from any kind of proof.

[SFDanny]

I have read the Citadel many times over. The parentage section of it regarding Jon Snow is still just based on the writer's assumptions and personal feelings towards it. It's a far cry from any kind of proof.

I said nothing about "proof." There is no proof of any of these theories as of yet. That does not mean one is not better informed by reading the what others have written about these ideas before them.

As to your assertion you have read the Citadel "many times over," let me just say "WOW!" I would not have thought so. From basic timeline questions to not knowing if Wylla is alive or dead and on and on, I assumed your posts reflected a lack of information. Nothing wrong with that. I see now that they reflect a total disregard of information from any source that doesn't conform with what you want. I stand corrected.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

First off I think that R+L=J is about 90% likely to be true.

However I think that GRRM has set things up so that N+A=J is logistically possible (and a N+A is great story in itself), so I'm gonna reply to the questions below.

5. If N+A, how does Ned meet up with a lady of a loyalist house 3-4 months into the rebellion?

6. If N+A, why does Ned tell Robert that Wylla is the mother?

7. If N+A, why does Edric Dayne think Jon's mother is Wylla? Wouldn't a Dayne be in a position to know whether Ashara was the mother?

8. If N+A, why does Ned refuse to tell Catelyn or Jon who the mother is?

5. If we assume that Ned and Ashara are already madly in love, they are damn well going to find a way to meet up since either of them could die at any moment (plus even if both survive they'll probably never see each other again after the war). Ned is going to and fro all over Westeros during this time. Ashara is a Dayne, and Dornish. Dornish women are given a lot more freedom of movement than other ladies of Westeros. IMO even if N+A != J Ned + Ashara still hooked up during this time, which is why Ned is so guilty "I dishonored myself".

6 & 8. Ned is "protecting Ashara's memory". Although Dornish society might accept Ashara having an affair if she wants, to Ned "they dishonored themselves." So he's protecting her honor, very consistent with his rigid moral code.

7. Similar to 6&8. In this case, Ned may have made any Daynes that knew to promise to name Wylla as the mother to any that may ask (in fact whoever Jon's parents are this is what happened). Also Edric wasn't even born yet - so he'd have heard it second hand.

[George Snow]

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

I'm willing to say that Jon very well could be the product of N+A or N+W. But you did leave out a quote just before this one that could point to L+R=J.

"...but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

And then just a little after your quote in the same scene.

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels, somehow, he thought not."

Let's take a look at these 3 statements.

1. He made more than one promise to Lyanna.

2. He paid, apparently, a heavy price to keep them. What is the heaviest price that Ned could pay? I think it is his honor. Now whether the honor is sullied because of something he did that was unhonorable, or whether it is sullied because of a promise he made to Lyanna is not specified by the author.

3. He is thinking of Jon, Lyanna, and Rhaegar, all at the same time. Why would Ned think of Rhaegar for the first time in years, just after he had thought of Jon and Lyanna? Not conclusive, but suspicious.

4. Whose lust created Jon? Again, these passages are inconclusive, but if I were thinking about bastards, and then Jon, if I was his father, I'd probably think of his mother and, possibly Catelyn because I had dishonored her. The fact that he thinks of Lyanna and Rhaegar while he is thinking of bastards and Jon is, again, not conclusive, but suspicious.

While the theory of N+A/W=J could be true. I think that R+L=J is probably more likely. And if Jon really is Ned's son, I'm more likely to believe that N+A=J is more likely than N+W=J.

If N+W=J is true, what's the harm in telling Catelyn and Jon, especially since this is the "cover" story? We know that, at the least, Wylla was Jon's wet nurse. (10%)

If N+A=J is true, I can see Ned lying or not telling anyone to try to save Ashara's honor. (25%)

If R+L=J, then Ned has several reason's to lie. Promise(s) to Lyanna. Knowing that since Jon is an heir to the Iron Throne, Robert would probably have Jon killed. (65%)

GH

[mormont]

[mod] That's about enough of the interpersonal stuff. Take it to PM. We do not want to see people discussing who is or is not on their Ignore list, nor do we want to see gratuitous Nazi comparisons, nor bickering over what can and cannot be discussed in the thread. As someone said earlier, that's the mods' call, not yours. If you want that level of control, have a discussion on your own blog or board.

And remember, people: it's just a book. Discussing it should be fun. [/mod]

[Gregor Barksdale]

You don't get it. Obviously Jon is the son of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully, that's the shocking truth!

[Whatever]

You don't get it. Obviously Jon is the son of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully, that's the shocking truth!

Shouldn't Cat know it? :D