Ned + ? = Jon Snow

[Vvandal]

hmm, Interesting. Ned THINKING something is pretty solid proof of Jon being his kid, he wouldn't think a lie for the readers sake, that would be moronic. What are the claims to disprove this? I'm sure the R=L=J camp have a few?

Personally I'm pretty indifferent at this point. I could care less who Jon's parents are, I just want the 5th book to come out already.

WORD

[A Redeemed Hound]

Just finished AGOT again. There is no way Jon Snow is the son of R+L. He's all Ned's. How pathetic would it be for him to find out that the man he loved and risked his life to try to avenge was just his uncle?

Jon risks his life fleeing the Watch to join his brother Robb to avenge his father. He hopes that if he dies people will talk about Ned's 4 sons and not just his 3. If Ned is not Jon's father then Ned is pure scum for keeping the lie for so long. It would completely kill Jon to find that sort of thing out.

[Prince of the North]

If Ned is not Jon's father then Ned is pure scum for keeping the lie for so long.

Hmm...so do you think Ned would still be "pure scum" for keeping Jon's true parentage (if R+L=J) from him if that was at least part of what Lyanna wanted him to promise?

[Targaryen loyalist]

The point that let me think that Ned is the true father of Jon Snow is that Jon himself doesn't show any sign of his Targaryen heritage.

I find quite unbelievable that in 300 years the Targaryen "genes" always survived when a Targ had a baby with a non-Targ, and ONLY in R+L suddenly all the "platinum hairs / violet eyes" stuff completely disappears... and then Jon has only Stark "genes" (black hair and black eyes).

It's not like "real world" science, where black hair/eyes genes are "stronger" than blonde hair/light coloured eyes... We are in a world where the Targaryen hair/eyes colour survived to generations of marriages with non-Targ (looking at their - incomplete - family tree we could see how almost every 1-2 generations they marry someone outside the family).

This does not mean that Lyanna was not with child (I think she was), but there are various options:

- The father of the child is Rhaegar, but the child is NOT Jon Snow

- The father of the child is NOT Rhaegar, but the child MIGHT BE Jon Snow

A Robert+Lyanna option is completely impossible? Baratheons have black hair like the Starks, so Jon could easly resemble a Stark even being half a Baratheon.

And Ned kept everything secret because if Jon is Robert's son all the marriage-alliance with the Lannisters (so crucial at the end of the Rebellion) would have been screwed.

[Nukelavee]

just before Ned heads south, and he and Jon are discussing Jon's future...Ned tell Jon when he returns, he'll tell him about his mother.

well...THAT'S not happening now.

but... it bothers me. if Jon's mother isn't his sister, and it isn't Dayne's sister...it makes sense to finally tell him. it even would make sense if it was Dayne's sister...It doesn't seem to make sense if Jon is a Targ - all the reasons for keeping it a secret that long, still exist.

next - Jon's off to the wall...(let us say he is a Targ-warg. heh) who does he meet? a Targ, Maester Aemon.

so - If the secrecy was because Jon's mother was a Targ, wouldn't telling him that, while leaving him in a place with relative, be odd?

now-i'm not saying the above really means anything, except that to me, assuming L+R=J is too easy a puzzle to solve.

ie - i was ever so proud when i saw the possibility, AND discovered people here thought it as well (meaning i wasn't totallymaking things up), but lately, it seems too pat, like it's only the next layer of a much more complex puzzle.

[A Redeemed Hound]

The point that let me think that Ned is the true father of Jon Snow is that Jon himself doesn't show any sign of his Targaryen heritage.

I find quite unbelievable that in 300 years the Targaryen "genes" always survived when a Targ had a baby with a non-Targ, and ONLY in R+L suddenly all the "platinum hairs / violet eyes" stuff completely disappears... and then Jon has only Stark "genes" (black hair and black eyes).

It's not like "real world" science, where black hair/eyes genes are "stronger" than blonde hair/light coloured eyes... We are in a world where the Targaryen hair/eyes colour survived to generations of marriages with non-Targ (looking at their - incomplete - family tree we could see how almost every 1-2 generations they marry someone outside the family).

This does not mean that Lyanna was not with child (I think she was), but there are various options:

- The father of the child is Rhaegar, but the child is NOT Jon Snow

- The father of the child is NOT Rhaegar, but the child MIGHT BE Jon Snow

A Robert+Lyanna option is completely impossible? Baratheons have black hair like the Starks, so Jon could easly resemble a Stark even being half a Baratheon.

And Ned kept everything secret because if Jon is Robert's son all the marriage-alliance with the Lannisters (so crucial at the end of the Rebellion) would have been screwed.

I like your thinking, Targ Loyalist. I do, I do. To me the best story would be that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Robert but the timeline GRRM gave us would not allow that to be the case. But to me it's the best story and still possible if there can be an explanation.

But it just seems to me that Ned is the obvious choice and the real mystery is the mother. Jon has no Targaryen traits at all. He's a warg, has a wolf that resembles a Weirwood Tree (Old Gods), looks like Ned, acts like Ned, etc. He has no dreams of fire, dragons, etc. He dreams of Winterfell. He wants to be recognized as one of Ned's sons and not just his bastard. He desires to be Lord of Winterfell.

I also believe that if Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar we just have not met it yet. I would think giving it to Howland Reed to keep it safe would be the best thing to do at the time since only he and Ned survived the Tower of Joy.

[chris.t.]

I think the most logical reason for Ned not telling Jon (or anyone else) who Jon's mother is would be to protect Jon.

Whose children do we see under the threat of death?

Robert sends assassins after Targaryen children and looked the other way as Rhaegar's children were murdered gruesomely.

Cersei has at least one of Robert's bastards killed and sends men after Gendry.

From what we've been told, there were plenty of opportunities for Rhaegar to father a child on Lyana. Not so for Robert, which is why he wanted to kill Rhaeger so much.

Do we have an example where Ned could be the father in which we've seen people wanting to kill the child? Could he have gotten a Targ pregnant? As far as I know, there aren't any Targ women of the right age that would have been available to him.

Elia wasn't a Targ, she was a Martell, and was guarded closely in King's Landing throughout the war. She was murdered before Ned got to King's Landing.

Rhaella was already pregnant with Dany during the relevant time period and at this point, it'd be pretty cheap to say, "Oh yeah, Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany had another sister I forgot to tell you about."

As far as we know, Rhaella was Aerys' only sibling and Jaeherys' only issue. As far as we know, Jaeherys' big brother, Duncan, died before fathering any children and his little sister Rhaelle is Robert's grandmother.

Thus, if there were any other Targs from extended branches of the family tree, they'd be behind Robert in succession anyway. If Ned did father a bastard from a lesser Targ branch who was behind Robert in succession, odds are Robert would have found that hilarious rather than wanted to kill the child.

If there's another possibility, I'm all ears.

If Jon's mother is of no significance, why not just tell Jon? "Her name was Wyla. She's a peasant. She lives in Dorne. I was injured and distraught after a long war and burying my dead sister. I was weak. I'm not proud of it." Ned's a lot of things, but I don't think he's the type of guy to hide the identity of Jon's mother from him for no compelling reason.

[Dragonfish]

The point that let me think that Ned is the true father of Jon Snow is that Jon himself doesn't show any sign of his Targaryen heritage.

I find quite unbelievable that in 300 years the Targaryen "genes" always survived when a Targ had a baby with a non-Targ, and ONLY in R+L suddenly all the "platinum hairs / violet eyes" stuff completely disappears... and then Jon has only Stark "genes" (black hair and black eyes).

This point has been addressed time and time again. It is not at all true that Targ children "always" have the same look when one of their parents is a non-Targ. Rhaegar's daughter, Rhaenys, had the Martell look, and if I'm not mistaken Baelor Breakspear (from the Hedge Knight) had non-Targaryen features as well. So it's not at all "unbelievable" that Jon has the Stark look. In fact, we have textual evidence that indirectly compares Jon's look to Lyanna's, based on the several occasions in which Jon is compared to Arya and Arya to Lyanna. Jon may very well look like Ned, but that may just be a product of the fact that both of them share a certain "Starkish" appearance.

just before Ned heads south, and he and Jon are discussing Jon's future...Ned tell Jon when he returns, he'll tell him about his mother.

well...THAT'S not happening now.

Hmmm...are you sure that's from the books? I recall seeing that in one of the promos for the HBO show, but I seem to recall that being a departure from the books. If you could provide an exact quotation to put my suspicions at ease, that would be great.

[Valmy]

If Ned is not Jon's father then Ned is pure scum for keeping the lie for so long.

1. If R + L = J then that knowledge would only put Jon in mortal danger. What difference does it make?

2. Ned never actually tells him he was his father in the books, only that he is his blood so he does not lie to him...technically.

3. Ned swore to keep it a secret.

4. Really? Pure scum? If that is pure scum you must find every single character in this story beyond the pale.

[Prince of the North]

This point has been addressed time and time again. It is not at all true that Targ children "always" have the same look when one of their parents is a non-Targ. Rhaegar's daughter, Rhaenys, had the Martell look, and if I'm not mistaken Baelor Breakspear (from the Hedge Knight) had non-Targaryen features as well. So it's not at all "unbelievable" that Jon has the Stark look. In fact, we have textual evidence that indirectly compares Jon's look to Lyanna's, based on the several occasions in which Jon is compared to Arya and Arya to Lyanna. Jon may very well look like Ned, but that may just be a product of the fact that both of them share a certain "Starkish" appearance.

Spot on, Dragonfish. Thank you :thumbsup:

[Dragonfish]

Just finished AGOT again. There is no way Jon Snow is the son of R+L. He's all Ned's. How pathetic would it be for him to find out that the man he loved and risked his life to try to avenge was just his uncle?

Jon risks his life fleeing the Watch to join his brother Robb to avenge his father. He hopes that if he dies people will talk about Ned's 4 sons and not just his 3. If Ned is not Jon's father then Ned is pure scum for keeping the lie for so long. It would completely kill Jon to find that sort of thing out.

As has been mentioned before, Ned had valid, non-scummy reasons for with-holding Jon's true heritage from him, as well as from the rest of the world: if Robert found out Jon was a Targ, and a product of Lyanna's "rape" to boot, then the boy would be dead. Besides, Ned is still Jon's father in emotional terms, so Jon's willingness to break his vows to avenge him is hardly pathetic.

Also, arguing that R+L=J isn't true because "Jon wouldn't like it" doesn't strike me as a very strong argument.

But it just seems to me that Ned is the obvious choice and the real mystery is the mother. Jon has no Targaryen traits at all. He's a warg, has a wolf that resembles a Weirwood Tree (Old Gods), looks like Ned, acts like Ned, etc. He has no dreams of fire, dragons, etc. He dreams of Winterfell. He wants to be recognized as one of Ned's sons and not just his bastard. He desires to be Lord of Winterfell.

Of course Jon has all these desires, dreams, and goals, he was raised in the Stark household and made to believe he was Ned Stark's son. Arguing that Jon can't be a Targ because he doesn't have "dragon dreams" and the like is akin to arguing that genetics is destiny. Jon acts like a Stark because he was raised to act like a Stark.

ETA: Also, I'd like to offer a personal rejoinder to the idea that Ned with-holding Jon's heritage from him makes him a bad person. On the contrary, I think it makes him a better and more interesting person. Remember, for most of the book it seems that Ned's honor is his most prized trait, one that he tends to adhere to no matter the consequences. And yet, what R+L=J suggests is that Ned was willing to sacrifice his precious honor to protect the child of the sister he loved. For all his talk about honor, in the end the thing he cared about most was his family. For me, that makes him a more sympathetic and three-dimensional character. It is consistent with Ned's final act (lying to the public about Joffrey to protect his family) and, more generally, it is consistent with the "things we do for love" theme that runs throughout the books.

[A Redeemed Hound]

This point has been addressed time and time again. It is not at all true that Targ children "always" have the same look when one of their parents is a non-Targ. Rhaegar's daughter, Rhaenys, had the Martell look, and if I'm not mistaken Baelor Breakspear (from the Hedge Knight) had non-Targaryen features as well. So it's not at all "unbelievable" that Jon has the Stark look. In fact, we have textual evidence that indirectly compares Jon's look to Lyanna's, based on the several occasions in which Jon is compared to Arya and Arya to Lyanna. Jon may very well look like Ned, but that may just be a product of the fact that both of them share a certain "Starkish" appearance.

But all of them have SOME sort of Targaryen trait. Jon has absolutely none. Not even the non-physical traits. He's not Targaryen. The Old Gods saw fit to give him a wolf that looks like the weirwood trees. He's not Targaryen. He's a warg. Not Targaryen. He's not going to ride a dragon with his wolf. He's not Targaryen. I will bet anything on it. His father is Ned. His mother is unknown. Most likely Ashara, a Targaryen loyalist during the war.

[Whatever]

just before Ned heads south, and he and Jon are discussing Jon's future...Ned tell Jon when he returns, he'll tell him about his mother.

thats from the tv show, not from the book :D

Just finished AGOT again. There is no way Jon Snow is the son of R+L. He's all Ned's. How pathetic would it be for him to find out that the man he loved and risked his life to try to avenge was just his uncle?

Jon risks his life fleeing the Watch to join his brother Robb to avenge his father. He hopes that if he dies people will talk about Ned's 4 sons and not just his 3. If Ned is not Jon's father then Ned is pure scum for keeping the lie for so long. It would completely kill Jon to find that sort of thing out.

This is why i can't understand people who say it would be clichè, tipical, etc. really, has there ever been a story in which the bastard who finds out to be royalty is not only unhappy, but completely mad about it? it would be freaking interesting, and devastating to jon. Im looking forward to an intense refuse phase, a why-you-didnt-tell-me phase, a you-re-dead-and-you-cant-tell-me-why phase, and to a shocking ned-hate phase.

This is what i call to reverse a trope ;)

[Dragonfish]

But all of them have SOME sort of Targaryen trait. Jon has absolutely none. Not even the non-physical traits. He's not Targaryen. The Old Gods saw fit to give him a wolf that looks like the weirwood trees. He's not Targaryen. He's a warg. Not Targaryen. He's not going to ride a dragon with his wolf. He's not Targaryen. I will bet anything on it. His father is Ned. His mother is unknown. Most likely Ashara, a Targaryen loyalist during the war.

What are these Targaryen traits that all of them have? When I say that Rhaenys and Baelor Breakspear have non-Targaryen features, what I mean is that they don't look like Targs at all. They don't have SOME Targaryen traits, they have NONE. Unless you can provide me some textual evidence that says otherwise.

Yes, the Old Gods gave Jon a wolf (well, it's open to interpretation that the Old Gods are even real, but let's assume that they are). So what? Jon is half-Stark no matter what, and he holds to the Old Gods. And yes, Jon is a warg. So what? Again, he has Stark blood no matter what. Or does the genetic material given to him by his Stark mother not count? And where did I say that Jon would ride a dragon? We don't even know if Jon will ever embrace his Targaryen heritage, or that he'll ever find out about it.

Also, saying "he's not Targaryen" over and over again doesn't make it true.

[baxus]

I find quite unbelievable that in 300 years the Targaryen "genes" always survived when a Targ had a baby with a non-Targ, and ONLY in R+L suddenly all the "platinum hairs / violet eyes" stuff completely disappears... and then Jon has only Stark "genes" (black hair and black eyes).

...and if I'm not mistaken Baelor Breakspear (from the Hedge Knight) had non-Targaryen features as well.

baelor breakspear had black hair (which was mentioned as not rare among targaryen, but for the life of me i can't remember where i read it). i can't remember what colour were his eyes, but i think they were not violet.

But all of them have SOME sort of Targaryen trait.

no they don't. egg's brother, the drunk one, has no remarkable physical traits associated with targaryens and that is also commented on as not being that unusual or rare.

just before Ned heads south, and he and Jon are discussing Jon's future...Ned tell Jon when he returns, he'll tell him about his mother.

there is no scene of ned and jon's farewell anywhere in the books. jon talked to robb (somewhat), arya and even catelyn (she was her usual bitchy self) and spoke to comatose bran, but his last goodbuy to ned happened "off camera" or not at all.

A Robert+Lyanna option is completely impossible? Baratheons have black hair like the Starks, so Jon could easly resemble a Stark even being half a Baratheon.

And Ned kept everything secret because if Jon is Robert's son all the marriage-alliance with the Lannisters (so crucial at the end of the Rebellion) would have been screwed.

this is the theory i like, but i doubt it's true.

[Nukelavee]

from the show, really?

but i only watched the trailer once.

while i was also reading the same part of the book.

i find it hard to believe that my recent feeling about this was simply because i watched a trailer once.

seriously, you people are just being mean because i found something you didn't.

damnit. really? the show?

[Dragonfish]

baelor breakspear had black hair (which was mentioned as not rare among targaryen, but for the life of me i can't remember where i read it). i can't remember what colour were his eyes, but i think they were not violet.

egg's brother, the drunk one, has no remarkable physical traits associated with targaryens and that is also commented on as not being that unusual or rare.

Ah yes, thanks for that.

A Robert+Lyanna option is completely impossible? Baratheons have black hair like the Starks, so Jon could easly resemble a Stark even being half a Baratheon.

Just a quick note, the Starks have brown hair, not black hair.

[Whatever]

We don't even know if Jon will ever embrace his Targaryen heritage, or that he'll ever find out about it.

So i am not the only one who thinks he won't.

[zmflavius]

from the show, really?

but i only watched the trailer once.

while i was also reading the same part of the book.

i find it hard to believe that my recent feeling about this was simply because i watched a trailer once.

seriously, you people are just being mean because i found something you didn't.

damnit. really? the show?

Then give us some page numbers because I sure as hell can't find it in my copy of AGOT.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Also, saying "he's not Targaryen" over and over again doesn't make it true.

Doesn't it though? Doesn't it? :leer: