Robb and Jeyne ... was Sybell telling jaime the truth?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

In this scenario, what matters is that real-Jeyne is away with the Blackfish and that every hour lets them get further away. Of course the rest of the Westerlings would be in deep trouble once the jig is up, but at that point Jeyne might be safe.

So basically you're positing that Sybell doesn't care that her family would be ruined and that she herself would die (while Rollam and Eleyna would be reduced to exile and penury, if not killed themselves), so long as the heir to a king that she betrayed was safe?

[tuthmoses]

I'm going to take a leap and suggest that perhaps an enemy general is not somebody that the Blackfish would admit any kind of weakness to.

how about taking a leap of faith and suggesting that the Blackfish is laughing because he thinks Jaime's statement was funny?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

how about taking a leap of faith and suggesting that the Blackfish is laughing because he thinks Jaime's statement was funny?

It's a parley between two generals on opposing sides in a bloody civil war. Both of them are putting up a front, in order to maintain whatever advantage they can get. The idea that the Blackfish was caught in an unguarded moment while he's in a tête-à-tête with the Kingslayer is absurd.

And I don't see where the Blackfish laughs (or almost laughs) at Jaime's reference to the banner. I see him laughing later, in reference to Jaime's offer of single combat. Could you provide a quote?

[Errant Bard]

as far as edmure/the blackfish/pretty much everyone else knows the entire stark dynasty has been wiped out. Who is their banner flying for then? And why is the blackfish almost laughing at Jaime over his reference to it? It just doesn't make sense that Edmure and the blackfish would be so happy and cocky in that situation.

Reread the passage, you seem to be misremembering it, Brynden is neither happy nor cocky. He's angry, defiant, abrasive, cynical, suspicious and ready to die. Not yielding is not being cocky.

"I would have slain Robb Stark in the Whispering Wood, if I could have reached him. Some fools got in my way. Does it matter how the boy perished? He’s no less dead, and his kingdom died when he did."

"You must be blind as well as maimed, ser. Lift your eyes, and you will see that the direwolf still flies above our walls."

Brynden does not laugh at Jaime's talk of the banner, he first laughs when Jaime ask for single combat, so ridiculous is for him the notion to risk his castle on a duel he would certainly lose and for the rest, Robb named an heir and even without heir, some people can actually fight to the bitter end in defiance, just like that, look at the Blackwoods, or the BwB.

Also, did you consider the idea that if they wanted to escape with pregnant girl and stuff, they would have done so before the Frey's siege was reinforced by the Lannisters, not just when forced to surrender the castle by Edmure instead of staying to die to a man (and woman) in the assault?

[Medieval Housefly]

I think and hope Sybell will prove to be of more interest in the future. The fact that she makes that tea shows that she could take after her supposed ancestor, Maggie, and may also have insight into the future.

That being said, the Direwolf was put off by the uncle, which gives an indication that at least the uncle was scheming. I can't remember if the direwolf acted this way towards Sybell.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Also, did you consider the idea that if they wanted to escape with pregnant girl and stuff, they would have done so before the Frey's siege was reinforced by the Lannisters, not just when forced to surrender the castle by Edmure instead of staying to die to a man (and woman) in the assault?

Which puts interesting question: Was Brynden so rebellious to surrender because he has no Jayne to show or because Jayne may show in declaring who gets rewards and punishment on might to be meeting to reward or punish someone?

That being said, the Direwolf was put off by the uncle, which gives an indication that at least the uncle was scheming. I can't remember if the direwolf acted this way towards Sybell.

Jayne was scared of him. Anyway that doesn't mean much.

[TrackerNeil]

I suggest that if the support for your theory is some minor discrepancy about the hip size of a character, maybe you need to let that theory go.

[Mickey2093]

i love these back and forth arguments... i think either possibility almost equally likely, with a slight favor to the "it's not jeyne that jaime's looking at" option, albeit only slight. but it's going to be fun to get the answer in the book and then come back here to read all of the "it HAS to be THIS WAY because of THIS and THIS and THIS"... lmao - unless you're grim - i mean grrm, you can't know, and he's really good at taking us down one road only to do a fast switchback based on barely noticible information previously given to us...

[Lady Winter Rose]

I suggest that if the support for your theory is some minor discrepancy about the hip size of a character, maybe you need to let that theory go.

It's not so minor discrepancy. Although, I am convinced that hip size meant to suggest fertility.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

It's not so minor discrepancy.

I suspect that there's circular reasoning underlying this assertion. It's only "not so minor" if it proves the theory. If I had a theory that Renly was replaced between AGOT and ACOK, then the discrepancy in his eye color would appear to be quite important to me. But without that theory in mind, the discrepancy is insignificant.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

If I had a theory that Renly was replaced between AGOT and ACOK, then the discrepancy in his eye color would appear to be quite important to me. But without that theory in mind, the discrepancy is insignificant.

Renly's natural eye colour was green but they turned blue because an agent of the Others wighted him before aCoK. He was the prototype of a new generation of stealth wights that act and speak normally and don't have blackened frostbitten hands. This is why the wicked fire demoness Melisandre of Asshai was so determined to kill him through her shadowbinding sorcery, and what she referred to when she fanatically accused him of "sins".

Now some of that might seem like far out, unsupported speculation, but the bottom line is GRRM isn't the sort of author who would place such a subtle but unmistakable clue for the discerning unless it signified something pretty major!

(makes getaway before Poe's Law police arrive)

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Now some of that might seem like far out, unsupported speculation, but the bottom line is GRRM isn't the sort of author who would place such a subtle but unmistakable clue for the discerning unless it signified something pretty major!

Having seen you do this three times in a short time, I'm beginning to think all crackpot theories got their start as sarcastic posts from you ridiculing other crackpot theories.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I only remember two. :/

[Blackfish Blues]

I'm convinced the Blackfish escaped Riverrun with a plan in mind, but I don't think he took Jeyne with him. An elderly warrior being able to swim under a gate and slip quietly past the sentries on the river is not so bizarre, especially because he's been established as strong and resourceful. But an elderly warrior AND a pregnant girl who ALSO happens to be a fantastic swimmer is too much of a coincidence.

This is my main objection to the switch theory. The hips thing is a matter of personal interpretation, I think, and I don't have a firm opinion on it. I like to believe that Jeyne is indeed pregnant, but I don't know how Brynden can help. I think his plan is more military in nature.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Why nobody didn't notice that hip size symbolized fertility?

Jeyne has wide hips because she was pregnat, but didn't know that. She was drinking fertility drink, but the moment Sybil send letters (in Riverrun) she started to drink moontea. After some time, moontea started to work.

Anyone?

[strongboar]

I wasn't expecting Spanish inquisition.

Seriously the hostile tone some people use to shot down this theory isn't really needed :thumbsdown:

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I only remember two. :/

That's a puzzle. I must be remembering an older post, then.

[TrackerNeil]

I'm convinced the Blackfish escaped Riverrun with a plan in mind, but I don't think he took Jeyne with him. An elderly warrior being able to swim under a gate and slip quietly past the sentries on the river is not so bizarre, especially because he's been established as strong and resourceful.

Is the Blackfish elderly? I'm thinking he's probably in his mid-to-late fifties, certainly younger than Ser Barristan when he gave the Titan's Bastard what-for.

[Lord Godric]

Why nobody didn't notice that hip size symbolized fertility?

I originally assumed that the hip sizes mentioned simply referred to Jeyne's fertility as well, but I don't think moontea would physically shrink her hips. Unless Martin is giving us an unreliable narrator who is commenting with tones of symbolism he is not even conscious of, I doubt this is the case.

[Blackfish Blues]

Is the Blackfish elderly? I'm thinking he's probably in his mid-to-late fifties, certainly younger than Ser Barristan when he gave the Titan's Bastard what-for.

Agreed about Brynden's age. It makes sense: Hoster, who is 5 yrs. older, is described as looking wasted, but I think it was illness, not age. Also, the Blackfish acts consistently like a man in the prime of his life, leading the van, jumping from a dais to hug Cat, hitting a fast disappearing boat with an arrow, swimming under a gate etc.

I was trying to look at him from outside; I think a couple of people (Jaime, at least) call him "old man". For Westeros he's probably an exception (like Barristan), still alive and fighting in his fifties. So, story-wise, escaping from Riverrun is quite a feat for him. Escaping from Riverrun with a pregnant girl... that's stretching credibility.

Strongboar, I'm sorry that you feel hostility, I hope I'lve been shooting down your theory with kindness. :D I do hope that Jeyne is pregnant and that Brynden's plans include her somehow. I just think there must be some other way to spirit her out of Riverrun.

("With a trebuchet." Sorry, that was uncalled for.) :P