Father vows to kill son's murderer if released

[TerraPrime]

If you can't work out the difference between a crime of passion and the cold blooded, calculated, logged in a journal and attempted REPEATED rape, murder and consumption of a child then I'm afraid the flaw is with you.

But that's not the point I was criticizing. I think you will find my argument with someone else (Cantabile) who actually did say that they consider the hypothetical murder of Woodmansee to be morally the same as the murder of the child victim. Do you actually pay attention to what people write?

Instead, the point I was addressing in the post you quoted is the fact that you speak from two contradicting points of argument. On one hand, you said that people's declaration of their action in a yet-to-happen situation is unreliable because we can't know for sure how we will act until the situation happens, but on the other hand, you yourself use this argument in your own argument, saying that you know for sure that you won't do X. That's the contradiction I'm addressing, not the moral equivalence between the cannibalistic murder of a child and the revenge murder against Woodmansee.

ETA

After reading more articles, none of them mentioned rape against the victim. Were there reports of rape? Not that murder and cannibalism are not horrific enough on its own, but if there were no charges of rape then we should not be including that accusation in the discussion.

[Balefont]

ETA

After reading more articles, none of them mentioned rape against the victim. Were there reports of rape? Not that murder and cannibalism are not horrific enough on its own, but if there were no charges of rape then we should not be including that accusation in the discussion.

From what I understand, the boy was stabbed in the chest within minutes of him entering the Woodmansee home. So, no, no rape of which I'm aware. The killer just wanted to know what it would be like to kill someone, he lured the child to his house, and the boy was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

There were neither charges of rape nor cannibalism (though I'm not sure whether the latter would be charged at all). The details are not actually officially known; the reports of cannibalism came from the boy's father. However, it was pretty gruesome, even above the murder of a 5-year old: http://law.rightpundits.com/?p=2896

Superior Court Judge Thomas H. Needham ordered his journal and all other evidence in the case sealed. Needham said the accounts within it were too disturbing for Jason’s family to see.

A longer article here, too, with more reactions from those who've kept the journal: http://www.projo.com/news/content/MICHAEL_WOODMANSEE_03-06-11_PIMQFMO_v39.1941899.html

[kairparavel]

Returned, I disagree with you.

When you start to rationalize and justify revenge murders, you are assigning value to grief. Who says the suffering of a parent of a murdered child is greater than the suffering of someone else, like granddaughter over her grandparent? You? Parents? The alternative is to just say it is either neither justified or always justified, which leads to anarchy.

And regardless of your feelings on the matter, Woodmansee *is* someone's child. No one expects their child to grow up to be a monster. When you justify father one's desire based on his grief, you completely diminish the grief and suffering of father two.

[awesome possum]

This whole approach is out of line and you really don't want to go down this route. Claiming special privilege in this argument on the basis that you're a parent and you love your kids is, unavoidably, an attack on parents on the other side of the argument. Quite apart from the hurt feelings such a who-really-loves-their-kids argument will inevitably cause, it achieves absolutely nothing in terms of advancing your point of view.

This is not about whether people love their kids. Don't make it about that.

I don't think that's what I said at all. Just that it seemed to me that the vast majority of those so quick to condemn emotional reactions were childless, in which case they simply don't understand.

And regardless of your feelings on the matter, Woodmansee *is* someone's child. No one expects their child to grow up to be a monster. When you justify father one's desire based on his grief, you completely diminish the grief and suffering of father two.

Maybe he should have been a better father. You know, one whose sixteen-year-old son wouldn't even think of murdering a five-year-old just "to see what would happen" let alone actually acting on the deed.

[S John]

From what I understand, the boy was stabbed in the chest within minutes of him entering the Woodmansee home. So, no, no rape of which I'm aware. The killer just wanted to know what it would be like to kill someone, he lured the child to his house, and the boy was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The way I read it was that this is what he told the police when he confessed. That he stabbed him and that was that. He then told the police that they would find a journal when they searched the house but that the contents of the journal were just fiction. I guess the journal is where all the torture and rape stuff was. I suppose with the body being dead 5 years upon discovering there is no real way to know whether what he put in the journal is what he actually did, or if he was telling it true and the journal contained only fantasies about the boy.

[kuroishi]

I don't think that's what I said at all. Just that it seemed to me that the vast majority of those so quick to condemn emotional reactions were childless, in which case they simply don't understand.

Yeah, and that's a very stupid argument to make.

I think it irks me almost as much as when parents argue that they obviously know much better about how to take care of a kid than a childless person. Because everyone's experience is the same and it's impossible for a person who don't have a child of his/her own to take a huge part in the raising of a child or to love him/her as if it was his/her own.

I'll be sure to tell that to my little brother.

[Eurytus]

Yeah, and that's a very stupid argument to make.

I think it irks me almost as much as when parents argue that they obviously know much better about how to take care of a kid than a childless person. Because everyone's experience is the same and it's impossible for a person who don't have a child of his/her own to take a huge part in the raising of a child or to love him/her as if it was his/her own.

I'll be sure to tell that to my little brother.

But how do you know its a stupid argument to make?

Unless you have a kid of your own how do you know that what you feel for your little brother is the same as what a mother feels for her child?

[awesome possum]

Yeah, and that's a very stupid argument to make.

I think it irks me almost as much as when parents argue that they obviously know much better about how to take care of a kid than a childless person. Because everyone's experience is the same and it's impossible for a person who don't have a child of his/her own to take a huge part in the raising of a child or to love him/her as if it was his/her own.

I'll be sure to tell that to my little brother.

It's stupid to suggest that someone who hasn't raised a child knows as much about it as people who have. If you don't have a child, you don't understand what it's like to raise a child. It's actually pretty simple. You might think you know, but you don't. There's a bond there that's almost impossible to describe.

The sleepless nights, the sicknesses, the godforsaken diapers, watching the minute changes as their personalities develop, watching them grow through each developmental stage, and the way they look at you as if you're one of the most important people in the world.

Or you can ignore all of that and place a completely different meaning to my words again. There's no misinterpreting this: YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

[kuroishi]

But how do you know its a stupid argument to make?

Unless you have a kid of your own how do you know that what you feel for your little brother is the same as what a mother feels for her child?

Ah, first it was a parent for his child and now it's a mother for her child...

Well, I will never be a mother to any child so obviously I can't know, but I really don't see how my experience with my brother is different from the experience of a father with his child (except for the impregnating the mother part), and if you asked me if I love my brother and care for him more than a lot of fathers I know love their child... Then the answer is a clear yes.

The mere fact that infanticide exist would tend to prove that parents don't automatically love their children of a special love that nobody else can understand.

But I suppose some will argue that parents killing their own children are not real parents I guess (or maybe they're not even real humans?).

ETA :

The sleepless nights, the sicknesses, the godforsaken diapers, watching the minute changes as their personalities develop, watching them grow through each developmental stage, and the way they look at you as if you're one of the most important people in the world.

Or you can ignore all of that and place a completely different meaning to my words again. There's no misinterpreting this: YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

I can only grace this with a very simple answer : HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.:laugh:

(:bang:)

[awesome possum]

The mere fact that infanticide exist would tend to prove that parents don't automatically love their children of a special love that nobody else can understand.

But I suppose some will argue that parents killing their own children are not real parents I guess (or maybe they're not even real humans?).

How completely ignorant of you.

Enjoy your moronic martyrdom, cause I'm done with you.

[Waldo Frey]

Two hypothetical questions for those that support the father's stated intention to kill the bloke when he gets out:

How would you react if he declared his intention to kill him at the end of his 40 year term?

How would you react if it was not the father of the child that was declaring his intention to kill but, say, the father's next-door neighbour?

1. From the interview, John Foreman stated that he tried to block that horrible event in his daily life. If Michael Woodmansee serves his 40 years sentence in full, he would be 64. Twelve years could have a lot of things happen in prison. I don't know how Foreman feels if Woodmansee gets out of jail at the end of his 40 year term, but now the news of the early release upsets Foreman's peace.

2. There are many residents in that town concern about the return of Michael Meyers, I mean Michael Woodmansee. I am not surprised if some young bucks take the law into their own hands.

[Eurytus]

Ah, first it was a parent for his child and now it's a mother for her child...

Well, I will never be a mother to any child so obviously I can't know, but I really don't see how my experience with my brother is different from the experience of a father with his child (except for the impregnating the mother part), and if you asked me if I love my brother and care for him more than a lot of fathers I know love their child... Then the answer is a clear yes.

The mere fact that infanticide exist would tend to prove that parents don't automatically love their children of a special love that nobody else can understand.

But I suppose some will argue that parents killing their own children are not real parents I guess (or maybe they're not even real humans?).

Again, you're speaking from a position where you are guessing that your love for your brother is equivalent.

I'm sure that many teenagers feel that the first boyfriend/girlfriend they have is the love of their lives too.

The point is that some emotional bonds can't be experienced until they, well until they are.

So whilst you may well believe you love your brother as a parent loves a child, you won't know that until you are a father yourself.

[Balefont]

2. There are many residents in that town concern about the return of Michael Meyers, I mean Michael Woodmansee. I am not surprised if some young bucks take the law into their own hands.

Heh, just made me think that perhaps the Peace Dale hooligans who have a history of being in a group and "jumping" a singe person might finally do society some good. Maybe I'll donate to the liquid courage fund to get things started.

[MinDonner]

Twelve years could have a lot of things happen in prison.

And people are STILL making this argument. :bang:

Jesus. And I thought this thread had jumped the shark several pages back. Clearly there is still plenty more stupid to be shat into it.

[ljkeane]

Again, you're speaking from a position where you are guessing that your love for your brother is equivalent.

Of course possum is also speaking from a position where he's guessing that it isn't. I'm sure that concerns you as well.

[kuroishi]

Again, you're speaking from a position where you are guessing that your love for your brother is equivalent.

I'm sure that many teenagers feel that the first boyfriend/girlfriend they have is the love of their lives too.

The point is that some emotional bonds can't be experienced until they, well until they are.

So whilst you may well believe you love your brother as a parent loves a child, you won't know that until you are a father yourself.

But how can you tell that every father loves his children the same? That makes no sense. If some fathers would die (or kill) for their children, others obviously don't care for them, and it's pretty clear there must be a whole spectrum of father-children love between the extremes.

Between the time he was around 3 and the time he was around 12, I'm the (teenager/) adult my brother spent the most time with, way more than either of my parents, and I wouldn't be far off if I told he spent more time with me than with both of them taken together. All the sicknesses, sleeplessness, diapers I've dealt with on my own and on an almost daily basis (for the diapers).

3 months ago when I learnt that my (now 17-years old) brother had been assaulted in the metro (the consequences of which weren't too serious in the end, just a slightly broken nose and a lost cellphone), I was in such a state of shock that I cried for the first time in about 10 years and was in a shocked state for almost a week, even after having spoken with him on the phone and making sure he wasn't too traumatized and that he would be alright.

[Eurytus]

Of course possum is also speaking from a position where he's guessing that it isn't. I'm sure that concerns you as well.

Possum has the direct experience of the change in his feelings from before being a father to becoming one to call on. Whereas people without children can't know how their emotions might change with a child.

But how can you tell that every father loves his children the same? That makes no sense. If some fathers would die (or kill) for their children, others obviously don't care for them, and it's pretty clear there must be a whole spectrum of father-children love between the extremes.

I don't have a child, but I have heard from enough people who have that their love for their child is unlike any previous emotional bond in their lives. Especially so for mothers.

Given that I am childless I would not presume to tell them otherwise.

[ljkeane]

Possum has the direct experience of the change in his feelings from before being a father to becoming one to call on. Whereas people without children can't know how their emotions might change with a child.

He doesn't have direct experience of anyone else's feelings though, which renders any blanket statements rather meaningless.

[McCracken]

But you would presume to tell others that they can't have similarly strong bonds with other people.

How about people who have adopted do they count? Where do draw the rules and measure how others expierance their relationships?