The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[Damon]

OK. For those who flinch at a real world example, how about the selection process that creates Frank Herbert's Sardaukar (winners in the life sweepstakes on Salusa Secundus) and the Fremen (winners in the survival sweepstakes on Arrakis).

In both cases groups who are defined by the long term consequences of the life that they are forced to live in harsh environments.

The Adem seem to fit this SciFi/Fantasy mold quite will.

So, NOBODY thought Vashet's comment was funny? It's lonely out here.

[Slick Mongoose]

So, NOBODY thought Vashet's comment was funny? It's lonely out here.

Yes, it was. Although I preferred:

Stay out of the neighbor's garden. Don't tease the Benton's sheep. Don't play tag amongst the thousand spinning knives of your people's sacred tree.

[thistlepong]

In Trapis’s story, probably an excerpt from The Book of the Path, Menda grows to manhood in less than two months, whereupon on the first day of the seventh span the townsfolk come to Perial’s house.

In the scene where Sim and Wil confront Kvothe about burnout, the leadup says he’s tired after a span, determined after three, and showing wear around five. During the fifth span, the intervention occurs, and Sims comments, sarcastically, “He’s been sick for a whole month.”

Spans are referred to in ones, twos, threes, fives, sixes, and sevens.

Therefore it’s likely a month is four span – 44 days – give or take a few, given an equivalent year.

[unJon]

Good stuff, thistle! So if a year there has approximately the same number of days as an Earth year, there are about 8 months per year.

[Volsungr]

Great thread, with lots of interesting/bizarre/funny speculation.

A couple of things; the dislike of the Adem because they are a matriarchal fighting society based upon the inherent size/strength of men versus women. When I think of the most familiar martial arts practitioners, I think of Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, all big, strong-o wait, all short, QUICK men who use the size and strength of their opponents against them.

I like the women of the Adem because they are interesting characters. That being said, the Adem are a warrior culture that has existed for thousands of years. Ever heard of natural selection? It is no real surprise that sports that require strength, speed and size in the US are dominated by men AND WOMEN whose ancestors were slaves put through a demanding selected breeding process that emphasized those characteristics. Now imagine that process being thousands of years long rather than two hundred. The female survivors of the Adem mercenary existence are going to be very, very good.

Regarding your first comment your talking about famous martial art actors as in people who portray fantasies! Try paying attention to actual combat sports you might notice that they all have weight classes this is not to protect larger fighters. When it comes to real life fighting, size matters in fact it matters allot.

Regarding your second comment, there is no evidence that african americans were subject to selective breeding, and the primary natural selection pressures the faced would have been for disease resistance which is unrelated to strength and speed. African americans dominate running and jumping based sports they do not dominate other sports like weightlifting, wrestling, distance running, swimmming or any number of other sports. The characteristics that are posited to explain this advantage in running and jumping like higher levels of fast twitch muscle fibers, longer tendon bodies, and down regulated myostatin(a enzyme that breaks down muscle) production, and more gracile limbs are shared by all west african orginated populations and west africans are heavily over represented in the sprints and jumps just like afra-americans and afro-caribeans.

Finally There are huge cultural confounds in explaining patterns of performance in athletics. With current Data it is impossible to really parse apart what part of the differences in athletic performance we see between populations is based on genetic characteristics and what part on cultural factors. For example why are there so few black hockey players its probably not because natural selection gave europeans some special ice skating ability. Its more likely due to the fact they are more likely to live were hockey is popular and have the money to invest in all the gear, and access to rinks etc.

Natural selection does nothing to solve the demographic problem the Adem would face unless their was a change in the reproductive system. They would disapear demographically in competing with other groups long before their females could become superior warriors.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I mentioned it in Wise Man's Fear II, I think, but no one paid attention to me!

Not the same. The Adem are not an isolated island tribe.

[Rhaegar]

Therefore it’s likely a month is four span – 44 days – give or take a few, given an equivalent year.

The German translation of NoTW contains a appendix concerning the calendar and the currencies. I don't know if it was officially acknowledged by Rothfuss or a addition by the translator, but it states that a year has 8 months, each month 4 spans and each span 11 days.

[thistlepong]

The German translation of NoTW contains a appendix concerning the calendar and the currencies. I don't know if it was officially acknowledged by Rothfuss or a addition by the translator, but it states that a year has 8 months, each month 4 spans and each span 11 days.

Nice to have confirmation of a sort. Thanks. Do you happen to know if there's anything else in the appendix concerning the succession of days or months?

A quick search revealed this:

1. (first day)
   
2. (second day)
   
3. Theden
   
4. Shuden
   
5. (fifth day)
   
6. Hepten
   
7. Caenin
   
8. Felling
   
9. Reaving
   
10. Cendling
    
11. Mourning
    

[Suttree]

Regarding your first comment your talking about famous martial art actors as in people who portray fantasies! Try paying attention to actual combat sports you might notice that they all have weight classes this is not to protect larger fighters. When it comes to real life fighting, size matters in fact it matters allot.

Manny Pacquiao moved up and won in eight diff weight classes. Roy Jones Jr. moved up to win part of he Heavyweight title.

[Damon]

Dana,

Well that was long. Many good points as well. As far as merely actors goes, Jet Li was winning wushu competitions against young adults at age twelve and Bruce Lee was a martial arts instructor before he became an actor. Jackie Chan I don't know about.

I frankly don't know where one would go to watch fights to the death between martial arts experts to test your assertion that size, strength and reach are the ultimate determining factor in success. I will look on youtube.

Of course there are many cultural determinants of success in athletics above and beyond mere genetic inheritance. That being said, Jim Brown was not only an All-American and hall of famer in football, he was also an All-American in lacrosse at Syracuse. Not a person I would EVER want to face in a game where he got to carry a stick, on ice or not.

Your quote at the bottom is from Dune. You understand that the Fremen as described was not a "breeding program" so much as an extreme application of "natural selection". I believe that PR is trying to describe a society in the Adem with the same outcome. I didn't find it particularly unbelievable.

[thistlepong]

The physical argument is not, and has never been, about the Adem in particular.

It's "Blind Men and an Elephant."

Without textual evidence (i.e. quotes and examples) it's a stagnant, boring drone adding nothing to the discussion; properly discussed elsewhither.

[Volsungr]

Sutree those are both exceptions that prove the rule. Great boxers move up in weight because it is more of challenge, which supports my point, for a guy who was a middleweight to win at heavyweight brings him more money and prestige thats because its unusual. Now both of those guys started young and boxers normally put on bodyweight as they age Pacquioa fought at 115 for his first championship his bodyweight was 147 for his last fight he is beating bigger fighters but he is also getting bigger do so if size didn't matter why bother gaining the weight? Their achievement are also less impressive then the seem at first glance Pacquioa has one has won fights at newly made up weight classes like light welterweight while demanding his opponent fight at catch weights below the normal weight class limit. While jones picked one of the weakest heavy champs of recent memory and stayed well away from more impressive fighter like Lennox Lewis and the klitshko brothers.

Damon Jet Li became famous due to his performance in non sparring wushu competitions these are about as closely related to combat as gymnastics. Bruce Lee was actually a bit of scraper and was a great martial arts coach he did not make a habit of fighting larger highly trained men his days as street fighter were in hong kong were as guy approaching 160 pounds he was pretty large. Jackie Chan grew up in the beijing Opera and was never a competive martial artist or street fighter. Chuck Norris is actually the most decorated real life fighter to have made it as martial arts movie star.

You won't find fights to the death anywhere, but their are a huge variety of combat sports, Mixed martial arts(UFC, Strikeforce, Dream), Kick Boxing(K1), Muay Thai, Shotokan karate, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Brazilian Jujitsu, Boxing, Greco-roman and freestyle wrestling, in ever one of those the bigger fighter tends to win.

As far as the idea the Adem are really great fighter due to natural selection. Thats fine but I don't see strong textual evidence for it. Frank herbert was fascinated by evolution and described quite clearly why fremen and saudakar had become great warrior to due the hardships of their lives. I don't see PR setting that up, he focuses on the lethani which works not because you are big or strong but because your movement is perfect except when it matters that your fast or strong(penthe, the 10 year old).

I still don't see any reason why this natural selection would result in a gender switch? As I described above a society with significant number of warrior women that regularly went to war would quickly suffer demographic extinction. In order to solve that problem you have to change the human reproductive system, do the Adem have a queen who can produced thousands of babies which they raise communally, do the males have pouches the females can deposit fetuses into and go off to war, unless there is something along those lines a society with a large number of female combatants runs into a simple mathmatical problem in trying to maintain a sufficient population to win wars.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Even if the point about natural selection/selective breeding in the US was true, it would be irrelevant. There are white men competing in the NBA and NFL, but no black woman can compete at that level. Besides, how are the Adem going to engage in selective breeding when they don't even know what breeding is?

[generic]

I don't get the impression that the Adem usually go off to fight in wars. They are hired as bodyguards or something similar. As far as we have seen they do not even train as soldiers.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Dana, the fact that the women in Adem society are more advanced than men, has more to do with their belief that they alone can create new life, the rest is just a social byproduct.

Men are stronger than women, there is no denying that. With that said, the difference isn't that significant, but our society enlarges it. Go inside a gym and tell me how many women do you see lifting heavy weights and trying to build muscle... The same goes for most sports, especially the ones that involve heavy physical activity. Unfortunately, even today, women are objectified and that is reflected on their activities and preferences. Masculinity is still represented by aggression and femininity by passiveness. Those stereotypes may be useless in this day and age, but it's hard to completely shake them off after the thousands of years we have been practicing them.

In Adem society the opposite is true. Women get to do whatever they wan't because they are deemed superior than men, and they can advance further and faster for this reason as well. It's not so unrealistic as you think, matriarchal societies have existed in prehistoric times, and the reason was once again that men were unaware of their contribution to the process of conception ;). You should also keep in mind, that while your examples with sports and martial arts are sound, they represent competitions with strict sets of rules that tend to favor strength. Soldiers don't have to follow those rules, so in war speed and agility may be as important as strength and Adem are soldiers, not athletes.

A real world example to demonstrate what i am talking about is kung-fu. It was developed by the Buddhist monks in order to help them survive against superior numbers, armed and/or stronger opponents etc. Kung-fu relied more on speed and balance and less on physical strength. So if female monks were allowed too, and they were more encouraged to learn kung-fu than male monks, doesn't it make sense that after a few centuries they would be more effective with it than their male counterparts ? I think it's not an unrealistic assumption.

Now, i have to make it clear that i am not defending PR about the Adem, i still think their society is unrealistic and a cheesy piece of writing as well. The Lethani ? Seriously ? Not only has this idea been done to death in fantasy books, the execution was so cookie cutter, that i was seriously tempted to skip a couple of hundred pages in order to spare myself from the torture of reading about it, again and again.

I know that it's hard to be original in this day and age, but a good writer can take an old idea and breathe new life into it. A good recent example of this was the Cil-Aujas part of the Judging Eye. Sure the Moria trick has been done to death, but even Tolkien would've wet his pants if he could read Bakker's version of it.

And then there is their ignorance about how babies are made. If the Adem were a primitive isolated society i could kind of accept it, but they are mercenaries ffs. They go around the world chewing bubble gum and kicking ass ! Even if their free for all attitude about sex doesn't allow them to observe the traits of inheritance between a father and a child, they go to places were married couples produce children that look similar to both parents. As for the theory that they unknowingly consume a natural contraceptive, i do believe that plants like this would be widely used and well known in the rest of the world, and i think it's ridiculous that no Adem would've ever heard about it.

[AverageGuy]

Looking at the old story of Tehlu and the angels again, and knowing that Rothfuss often likes to play with the idea that similar words always have similar roots, anyone else think "Ruach" is related to "Ruh?" That some of the Ruach who hung back from Selitos and Aleph became refugees who eventually became the Ruh? The Adem's origin seems similar, constantly moving and constantly hated, and we have reason to suspect they were the remnant of part of the Ruach society.

So if female monks were allowed too, and they were more encouraged to learn kung-fu than male monks, doesn't it make sense that after a few centuries they would be more effective with it than their male counterparts ?

I don't really feel like, among the Adem, women are necessarily more skilled fighters. While Kvothe is told the women are better fighters, it's not because of skill, it's because they're better at judging when to fight. Also, we never hear the Adem males' side. Who knows if they would say the same thing :) But just sticking to skill, the highest combat ranking is the third stone, and we meet a man who said he would've eventually reached that point if he hadn't lost the use of his hand. That's where Penthe ranks, and we know how good she is. So it's not like men can't compete. It's more like it's egalitarian. Also, considering the impression I had of how small the Adem men are, the male/female size difference never really bothered me.

Leaving aside the sex argument, just addressing the general size argument. I've studied martial arts, I wrestled for years, I've been in a fight or two, I'm well aware of the difference size can make and that there comes a point where speed and skill make little difference. To an extent, weapons can be an equalizer, but take fencing, you start to really feel every parry when you meet someone who's much stronger than you. Unless you're so good and so fast you never even get touched, which is hellishly unlikely, power is a big deal, where even a block or an escape can wear you down and taking one solid hit can suddenly turn the tables. However, and I realize this comes down to personal preference, I don't care too much about that in action movies and fantasy combat. I enjoy seeing the little old man who suddenly kicks ass, the one person who can defeat a dozen. Not that I don't enjoy seeing the darker sides of realistic combat in a different way. But I had a feeling going into this book which type I'd see. Maybe expectations made the difference in not being bothered.

[thistlepong]

Looking at the old story of Tehlu and the angels again, and knowing that Rothfuss often likes to play with the idea that similar words always have similar roots, anyone else think "Ruach" is related to "Ruh?" That some of the Ruach who hung back from Selitos and Aleph became refugees who eventually became the Ruh? The Adem's origin seems similar, constantly moving and constantly hated, and we have reason to suspect they were the remnant of part of the Ruach society.

Ruach is Hebrew. It means breath, wind, or spirit: that which is invisible except by its manifestations or effects on that which is visible as opposed to nephesh, that which is tangible. It's a fantastic usage, really.

Ruh is Arabic, meaning spirit.

Your speculation could spin all the way out to the peoples of the world being descended from the Ruach who didn't wish to become involved in great matters. The Tahl and the Edema Ruh are nomadic. The Cealdim and the Adem were nomadic. So far only the Adem stories have directly suggested a link to Ergen.

Edema Ruh could (could, Grin, not does) mean "swollen spirit," which would be apt for Greyfallow's Men and Kvothe in particular.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

However, and I realize this comes down to personal preference, I don't care too much about that in action movies and fantasy combat. I enjoy seeing the little old man who suddenly kicks ass, the one person who can defeat a dozen. Not that I don't enjoy seeing the darker sides of realistic combat in a different way. But I had a feeling going into this book which type I'd see. Maybe expectations made the difference in not being bothered.

That's a fair point. I enjoy martial arts movies despite knowing how unrealistic they are. Maybe it's because, unlike say, "Kill Bill" Rothfuss not only goes into great detail about how the martial arts work but also tries to explain everything in terms of nonmystical factors such as leverage or weight distribution. I guess I wouldn't have had an issue if the Adem training consisted of a lot of meditating under waterfalls or hitting bowls of sand.

[Volsungr]

Dana, the fact that the women in Adem society are more advanced than men, has more to do with their belief that they alone can create new life, the rest is just a social byproduct.

Men are stronger than women, there is no denying that. With that said, the difference isn't that significant, but our society enlarges it. Go inside a gym and tell me how many women do you see lifting heavy weights and trying to build muscle... The same goes for most sports, especially the ones that involve heavy physical activity. Unfortunately, even today, women are objectified and that is reflected on their activities and preferences. Masculinity is still represented by aggression and femininity by passiveness. Those stereotypes may be useless in this day and age, but it's hard to completely shake them off after the thousands of years we have been practicing them.

In Adem society the opposite is true. Women get to do whatever they wan't because they are deemed superior than men, and they can advance further and faster for this reason as well. It's not so unrealistic as you think, matriarchal societies have existed in prehistoric times, and the reason was once again that men were unaware of their contribution to the process of conception ;).

The difference in male and female strength is highly significant and its not just strength it is power, endurance and speed as well. The differences in elite performance across almost all athletic disciplines are one the order of 10-15 percent. To put this another way there are at any given time thousands of high school boys in any given atheltic discipline who would beat the number one female athlete in the world in a given sport. That's significant.

I am the head coach at a gym were everyone who trains trains to be strong and athletic. I train some of the best female athletes in my sport. One of the key things for their progress is realizing the simple can not try to keep up with nor compare themselves with the boys is just frustrates them.

There is no historical or anthropological evidence of any matriarchal societies. At least in the sense of matriarchy as mirror image of patriarchy(some feminist like to use matriarchy to refer to anything short of patriarchy). In the 19th century there was scholar tradition of imagining a primitive matriarchal phase in cultural development it was never based on the slightest evidence but that did not stop feminist theorist from adopting these theories and adapting them to their ideology. There is evidence of societies for instance the Kung San in which gender power relationship are very egalatarian but there are no examples were females dominate politics or war.

This part of why I found the passage on the Adem so irritating as it just happens to to hit two areas of deep study for me and get them spectacularly wrong.

The thing that irritates me is that as part of the growth of the political correct ideology there is this polite fiction that gender differences are all cultural and what differences there are are insignificant when the evidence just doesn't accord with that view. While at the same time nobody asks why cultural patterns develop in certain direction?

Culture is used as sort of magic explanatory tool, why are men more agressive then women thats just culture? In proximate sense that may be true but in an ultimate sense that cultural tradition arose for a reason, ignoring for a minute the physical differences the demographic effects I keep bringing up are sufficient reason why most(all) cultures would chose to use males as warriors they are simple more expendable that is insight that actually explains the pattern we see, calling it culture doesn't.

[Thaykora]

Some of this might be old, some might be new, some might be wrong. Mostly, this is an assortment of things I noticed and I propose that you consider. If you find good reason why it's wrong, speak up.

• 
  
• Kv dreams of things right after his troupe is killed. He notes he dreamt of knowledge he never had. I propose that the Amyr did arrive after the Chandrian left, but could not be seen. These dreams likely came to him from the Amyr, as at the end of the dream he see's giant waystones forming a circle around him. The greystones are the amyr, or related to them.
  
  
• Auri has been sent by the Amyr, Sithe or another group. There is likely a huge interest in Kvothe because he survived the chandrian. Kv first meets Auri (Ari) in Tarbean. He points out a 'boy' with blonde hair that is helping the other homeless children when he goes to say goodbye. This 'boy' named Ari commands the attention of all the other children. Whether he has made this connection in present day is unknown.
  
  
• Auri may be faen. This explains why she looks 20 and acts younger. She makes reference to the cthae when she mentions wanting the shimmer off the wings of a blue dragonfly and being close enough to touch them. She first shows up when a sliver of sunlight hits the courtyard were she lives. She has no problem opening the gate to get inside. She mentions wanting the moon but not getting it. Makes me think of Jax/Iax.
  
  
• Kvothe kills Wilem. This may be the poet, or king. Chronicler does he not answer "Did you design it yourself?" when Kv asks about the cipher he will use. Instead he stares at the paper for a long while and changes the subject. Wilem says later that he fumbled his cipher with Lorren during admissions. Additionally, in one of the books a connection is made between working in the archives and eventually becoming a scribe.
  
  
• There is a significant group known as the Grey Twelve. The number twelve is used A LOT when you see someone cursing another person, usually with a reference to color as well. Auri tells Kv that a mother owl made nest in an area of the Underthing she calls Grey Twelve, which was 'bold as brass', rare, as owls are wise before bold. This owl has a face like a wicked moon. This group/area is likely significant. Who are these twelve?
  
  
• Kvothe tells us his name is pronounced Quothe. Elodin tells us about the name of a place called Quoyan Hayel, House of the Wind. Quoyan is likely made from two parts: Quo (wind) and -ian (like in the word Canadian). So part of Kvothe's name means Wind. What about the rest of it?
  
  
• El'the likely means: the singers. Kvothe means Wind Signer.
  

Edit: I started with like 40 bullet points, but eventually scrapped a few that I thought spoiled too much, and a few that require more work. If anyone has a PDF version of the second book, let me know. I have no problem asking for it because I paid for both books :)