The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[Guy Kilmore]

Why does this argument seem to come up every single thread? There's no problem when the author says, "A wizard did it" to explain something implausible. The problem comes when the author explicitly or implicitly states when there's something implausible, that no wizard was involved.

But there is a wise old sage and a woman who has some skill in naming involved.

[Volsungr]

When you pick up a fantasy novel you are essentially agreeing to suspend disbelief about magic that doesn't mean that every other part of the world is not subject to normal rules. What makes magic based fantasy interesting the juxtaposition of these super-natural powers with people we recognize as similar to ourselves. Unless there the author gives us a reason to believe people are normal humans the assumption is th people featured are boardly similar to the humans we see around us.

There is fiction were this is not the case and that can be very interesting and well done. Leguins the left hand of darkness is a particularly good example.

Even with magic we expect internal consistency and when that is lacking we have a problem with it.

The Adem fail in this as well. Vaset asks Kvothe what strength has to do with Ketan, but later the 10 year old has to adjust her technique because she lacks strength and Penthe defeats sheyhn because she is faster and more athletic. There is no textual reason to see the Lethani as mystical, the above examples weigh against such a belief.

Fantasy tends to take place in a sort of generic medieval european society, we know what to expect from that. Good world building in my experience is when people understand that setting more deeply or thinking deeply about the changes they are making to that setting.

To give an example that's less politically hot, another world building problem I often have is dragons, I rarely like reading stories with Dragons because they are generally portrayed as essentialy invincible, highly intelligent, almost physically invulnerable and rapacious. Creatures like that would have huge effects on ecologies that are almost never shown. Robin hobb is the worst for this, Her dragons are viewed as sort of the a counterweight for humans bringing the ecology back into balance. Enviromentalism through giant predators.

If dragons were slow living slow breeding and only needed to eat a couple times a year like giant snakes it would make the imminently more believable for them to be living next to medieval societies in some sort of balance.

If your going to write about martial arts you should understand combat, If your going to write about societies with different gender roles and sexual mores you should understand why specific gender roles and sexual mores arise.

[Guy Kilmore]

When you pick up a fantasy novel you are essentially agreeing to suspend disbelief about magic that doesn't mean that every other part of the world is not subject to normal rules. What makes magic based fantasy interesting the juxtaposition of these super-natural powers with people we recognize as similar to ourselves. Unless there the author gives us a reason to believe people are normal humans the assumption is th people featured are boardly similar to the humans we see around us.

There is fiction were this is not the case and that can be very interesting and well done. Leguins the left hand of darkness is a particularly good example.

Even with magic we expect internal consistency and when that is lacking we have a problem with it.

The Adem fail in this as well. Vaset asks Kvothe what strength has to do with Ketan, but later the 10 year old has to adjust her technique because she lacks strength and Penthe defeats sheyhn because she is faster and more athletic. There is no textual reason to see the Lethani as mystical, the above examples weigh against such a belief.

Fantasy tends to take place in a sort of generic medieval european society, we know what to expect from that. Good world building in my experience is when people understand that setting more deeply or thinking deeply about the changes they are making to that setting.

If your going to write about martial arts you should understand combat, If your going to write about societies with different gender roles and sexual mores you should understand why specific gender roles and sexual mores arise.

I still disagree, the sympathy duels are similar, you just have a different expression of said mystic abilities, one is through being physical the other is through strength of will. You can see this in the duels between Kvothe and the class (Fenton eventually beating Kvothe and in the duel between Devi and Kvothe).

Yes, fantasy tends to use medieval society, however it deviates because it inserts magic into the equation. Magic would be as pervasive to society as introducing technology and thus have an effect on the social mores and values. Rothfuss demonstrates this in variouss different cultures in Kvotheland. I agree that the Adem scenes were slow and possibly boring, I don't agree that they are inconsistent with the world he has created and unbelievable in the setting of said world.

I would find it unbelievable if there was no difference from Kvotheland cultures and our middle-age cultures when there are namers, shapers, spiders with dagger legs, faeries, and future telling creatures that live in trees.

[jurble]

I have a bigger problem believing in Kvotheland's general society than I do in the Adem. The chemistry references the characters spout off in the book seem to imply 1800s-level knowledge of chemistry. Yet there's no gunpowder.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Someone definitely brought that up in one of the TNOTW threads. The levels of technology and scientific knowledge don't seem to sync up. I think someone handwaved that by saying the University is extremely insular.

[Guy Kilmore]

I have a bigger problem believing in Kvotheland's general society than I do in the Adem. The chemistry references the characters spout off in the book seem to imply 1800s-level knowledge of chemistry. Yet there's no gunpowder.

My only thought is if the Master Alchemist has the same philosophy as the dude who is the Master Smith and stomps on stuff that could be used for violence or whatnot. That seems pretty weak though.

[thistlepong]

If your going to write about martial arts you should understand combat, If your going to write about societies with different gender roles and sexual mores you should understand why specific gender roles and sexual mores arise.

The Latantha was founded by a man named Aethe before the Adem had settled in Ademre. The students he taught could see the wind. A confrontation with his student and lover resulted in her displaying more wisdom than he could, and he turned the school over to her. She narrated 99 stories which became the basis for their culture. Some of the other masters are men.

I get the feeling no matter how much textual evidence is presented, you'll maintain that you're physically superior to women and that trumps everything.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

It's not just that there's women who are good at fighting, it's that their combat method seems to contradict everything we actually know about combat. That "not having a temper" can overcome differences in size, speed and strength. That scripted katas and tai chi are at all relevant to actual fighting, etc. And even if the old lady in charge and some sages know some magic, the text makes it quite clear that people down the totem pole don't.

[thistlepong]

And even if the old lady in charge and some sages know some magic, the text makes it quite clear that people down the totem pole don't.

Demonstrate.

[seastarr]

Does anyone have a good guess what a "dennerling" is? After Kvothe gets back from his visit to the Cthaeh, Felurian says: "only a dennerling would speak to the Cthaeh." And Kvothe "knows it to be the truth" and begins to cry. Huh?

People seem to drop the word dennerling when they are talking about faeries and "mythological" beings, but I don't think a dennerling has ever been explained. The most I have gotten from context is that a dennerling is an impish but not very bright sort of Fae creature...or is it just a denner addict?

This brings me to something else I've been thinking about: word roots. Towards the end of WMF we get a long explanation about how Tempi's name means iron/anger and how it is the same as the root tem- which means anger (temper) or iron working (to temper) in Aturan, too. (I wonder what this means for the language Temic/Tema or the book En Temerant Voistra...)

So another root we see a lot of is "den- or denn-." Dennerling, denner resin (the heroin-like drug made from the denner tree), Denna, and even Denn (Count Threpe). At first I thought denn- might have something to do with sweetness, as the reference to the sweet-eaters who are denner addicts. But now I think denn- is much darker, though I still haven't got any big ideas.

One other root I think I've noticed is Fel-, relating to desire. Felurian (the fae goddess of desire, Fela (most desirable woman at the Uni), and the inscription on the library: VorFELan Rhinata Morie (The DESIRE for knowledge shapes a man)

Rhin- was already discussed as a root earlier, meaning either shape or man or possibly man/shape.

Anyone else figure out any root meanings?

ETA: And why oh why does Felurian not use capitals when she's talking?

[peterbound]

Am i the only one that didn't like this book? It's the first book of the year that i've actually put down and started reading something else (Heroes). Shame, i remember kinda enjoying the first one.

Seems like he's trying too hard with the prose. Maybe it's just me.

[jurble]

Am i the only one that didn't like this book? It's the first book of the year that i've actually put down and started reading something else (Heroes). Shame, i remember kinda enjoying the first one.

Seems like he's trying too hard with the prose. Maybe it's just me.

It was a B to me.

Observation: Children can see through Bast's magic. Mary's son calls Bast "Dog" when he sees him. Clearly, he lacks a schema for the Fae, and assimilates him into the schema for non-human animals, of which he only possesses dog at the time.

[Gaston de Foix]

It was a B to me.

Observation: Children can see through Bast's magic. Mary's son calls Bast "Dog" when he sees him. Clearly, he lacks a schema for the Fae, and assimilates him into the schema for non-human animals, of which he only possesses dog at the time.

I think maybe only small children can do that? None of the other kids Mary have seem to be able to see through the glamour.

A thought just crossed my mind- does Felurian have hooves? Why not?

[Volsungr]

The Latantha was founded by a man named Aethe before the Adem had settled in Ademre. The students he taught could see the wind. A confrontation with his student and lover resulted in her displaying more wisdom than he could, and he turned the school over to her. She narrated 99 stories which became the basis for their culture. Some of the other masters are men.

I get the feeling no matter how much textual evidence is presented, you'll maintain that you're physically superior to women and that trumps everything.

Show me some textual evidence that their is magic involved and I will be interested, your tone in the bottom of the post comes off as bit of an add hominem. One example does not make a rule. My perspective is based on observation of general trends.

Seeing the wind is not the same as calling the wind, and the legendary capacities of the founder of a group is not the same as general technique of the group.

The Lethanta is clearly based on Gung Fu, one of the traditional idea's of gung fu is that one can cultivate Chi, or internal energy and this can amplify your physical technique and power so that when you strike you strike not just with your muscle and bone but with a metaphysical force. Many traditional martial artists speak of master's who could supposedly knock you over without touching you. If this was say possible in metaphysics of fantasy world and Chi was far more powerful then physical force and males and females were roughly equall in developing chi, the physical differences would become relatively trivial(the demographic problem is there of course). The Lethanta is not described this way, never is their talk of the internal energy behind the strike its all about being in the right position to apply leverage just like real life combat expect some how in Kvotheland the force applied to the leverage has ceased to matter.

The sociological effects of magic should definitely be considered in good world building but from my perspective its easier to stomach a world that is relatively familar in its outlines despite magic then a world that very different were magic doesn't offer a good reason why.

I also had some dissonance with the social/technological incongruence in kvotheland. Day to day technology like transport and weaponry seems medieval, but social mores and religious influence and scientific knowledge all seem more like 18th or 19th centuries. I think PR manages to skim past some of these issues with minimal enough depth that they don't bother me to much while the Adem are outlined in great and illogical depth. The other reason it bugged me more was probably simply because martial arts and anthropology are my areas of expertise were as history and technology are areas I am less deeply familar with.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Seastarr - I think a dennerling is someone who was a sweet-eater, ie is addicted to denner resin.

[BeeTrix]

Read the picnic scene Denna has with Kvothe. She tries to listen for the name of stone, though she plays it off as a joke. Ash is trying to teach her Naming. Her injuries are the result of her training. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say his method involves beating her to awaken her sleeping mind, since trauma is a good way of getting it awake e.g. Kvothe's lute breaking.

Random thought - does it follow then, that the purpose of her learning the name of stone, is so she can open a stone door? She might not know its for this purpose, but perhaps Ash is using her for this purpose.

[Renasko]

Am i the only one that didn't like this book?

No, you're not. I wasn't enthused much by the book at all. I don't expect this series to draw to a close anytime soon, either. So it's a good thing I don't love it.

Whoever on a thread back compared his writing to Wolfe needs a good smack up the head. Insulting comparison.

[Slick Mongoose]

I reckon about 20 people have said "Am I the only one who didn't like the book?" on this thread. :P

[AverageGuy]

Whoever on a thread back compared his writing to Wolfe needs a good smack up the head. Insulting comparison.

God. People need to get over the idea that mentioning two authors on different levels in the same breath is insulting. One person said the use of an unreliable narrator made her think of Wolfe. Now, Wolfe didn't invent the concept and he didn't add anything new to it, but he is one of the better-known examples of an author using it in fantasy, and he's a great writer on top of that. If I started a thread asking for examples of fantasy with unreliable narrators, how many people do you think would jump all over themselves to say Wolfe? S/he also said that Rothfuss didn't do it with Wolfe's elegance. The fact that Rothfuss suffers in the comparison should be good enough to avoid any appearance of insult. Though honestly, short of the use of phrases like "as good as" or "better than," it shouldn't give offense anyway. The best are always going to be used as the measure, are always going to invite comparison.

I'll go one better. Rothfuss's attempts at iambic verse with Felurian made me think of Shakespeare. Not because I think Rothfuss is the next Shakespeare. But simply because linking iambs with faeries creates a specific association in my mind. If he'd tried for dactylic hexameter, I'm sure I would've thought of Vergil instead.

[Gaston de Foix]

God. People need to get over the idea that mentioning two authors on different levels in the same breath is insulting.

I'll go one better. Rothfuss's attempts at iambic verse with Felurian made me think of Shakespeare. Not because I think Rothfuss is the next Shakespeare. But simply because linking iambs with faeries creates a specific association in my mind. If he'd tried for dactylic hexameter, I'm sure I would've thought of Vergil instead.

I reckon people are trying to start this debate because they have no clue as to my question :P - Why doesn't Felurian have hooves? Bast does. So eyes with only one colour and the hooves came later?

Go on AverageGuy take a shot, audentes fortuna iuvat.