Jon + Dany = <3

[The Idiots Lantern]

EDIT doublepost

[PatrickStormborn]

And as such is sworn to take no wives and father no sons. I know "ygrette" but I like to think she was a special case. I don't wanna see Jon break his oaths more then he already has and definitely not in pursuit of something selfish.

GRRM doesn't seem to be very fond of the idea of celibacy/sexual repression, so I can't see his main male character remaining celibate for very long.

[The Idiots Lantern]

GRRM doesn't seem to be very fond of the idea of celibacy/sexual repression, so I can't see his main male character remaining celibate for very long.

That he's not fond of the idea doesn't stop him from taking it seriously. It'd be a serious issue for Jon. Having one sexual relationship doesn't mean he's suddenly a horn-dog on the hunt for a wife/truelove/mom of babies. He's still a member of the Night's Watch and until they change the rules to allow their members to marry, I don't think he's going to embrace a family life.

[Ingelheim]

I say this again....why would Jon fall for Dany if he can have Val? :devil: :drool:

Yeah

[Lady of Long Lake]

Jon is not more highborn than Dany. She is the Queen of Meereen and the Princess of Dragonstone, and currently she's the only Targaryen heir with proof of identity. Jon is a dead Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Dany has smashed the slave trade, she's brought dragons back to the world, she increased the strength of magic, she slayed the Undying, she won over the loyalty of a khalasar and became the first female khal, she single-handedly tamed a dragon, and she even won the loyalty of Barristan the Bold.

Jon has achieved far, far, far less than Dany. I therefore fail to see how he is "too good for her". Surely the Breaker of Chains is too good for a dead bastard?

Dear God, please give me strength and maturity so that I don't swear at Patrick and get banned.

I disagree. Jon benevolently saved 3000 wildling's lives and wanted to save thousands more. He let them pass into his realm, gave them food and lodging and then offered them jobs if they wanted them. He forced the Watch to treat them respectfully when they were prone to being prejudicial. He integrated them SAFELY into his society and gave them a better future. The only person that has suffered from Jon's progressive view is the benefactor himself.

I think what Jon did trumps anything we have seen anyone do in the books. He accomplished it using only his own inner strength. He didn't have to kill thousands of people to garner his power. He didn't have to sleep with/marry someone to keep his power. He didn't have 3 deadly pets to scare people into giving him power. He earned respect and power the normal way- with his character and worthiness. And most importantly, he used his power to do good deeds when he had it.

Yeah, he's stabbed and may be dying. That doesn't negate the magnitude of what he just accomplished.

[Eelridge]

Dany's damaged goods. Jon would probably get some sought of venereal greyscale by touching her hand

[NotSoSilentSister]

That he's not fond of the idea doesn't stop him from taking it seriously.

Oh, he definitely does. That's why nothing short of dieing and being resurrected would get Jon out of his vows. Alas....

I do think that Jon wants to serve the realm above all. But I think that from an utilitarian perspective Jon the Gift Lord (married to Val) might be even more useful than celibate Jon-Lord-Commander. Unless the White Walkers win, the wildlings are here to stay and and the Westerosi will have to find a way to deal with them. It's going to be rocky road; marriage alliances will be important. Jon seems to be catnip to wildling women, and guys like that are in short supply among the kneelers.

In view of such political considerations, a celibate Jon at the Wall would be a sad, sad waste.

From more than one perspective.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I think what Jon did trumps anything we have seen anyone do in the books. He accomplished it using only his own inner strength.

The direwolf came in handy too, I guess. And the experienced Ranger sacrificing himself for him. And the horny wildling covering for him, when he almost blew his cover as a spy. And the loyal friend plotting to make him Lord Commander. Jon might have spent the entire last book rotting in a cell already if Sam had not managed to make him LC instead of someone like Allister Thorne.

You could argue that it's an achievement in itself to get so many people to take great risks for you, but you have to give Dany similiar credit then. Dany won over Drogo and Jorah before there was even the slightest whiff of a dragon.

Inspiring fervent loyality among certain people and getting them to go to great lenghts on your behalf is something Jon and Dany have very much in common.

He didn't have to kill thousands of people to garner his power.

Well, Jon wouldn't be where he is if not for killing his fair share of wildlings. That his death-toll doesn't quite amount to Dany's is more a matter of circumstance rather than conviction.

[jon stark I]

By title Dany is above Jon (being queen and all).But by character she is far below him.Jon does what is right against his emotions he left Yggritte for the watch.He tries to rescue his sister from a fate worse then death itself(being wife to ramsay)He acts strategicly planning his moves training getting stronger and not just physicly but mentally as well.Dany acts according to her emotions she marries a guy and beds another because she loves him or desires him whatever she has no plan for future not at all if Selmy wasn't with her i give her 3 weeks 4 weeks tops to survive.She unleashes untamed dragons and hopes they will eat just goats or cows then what happens she finds out they eat everything.She ignores her responsibilties to her people every place she goes she creates chaos.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Dany's damaged goods. Jon would probably get some sought of venereal greyscale by touching her hand

Well, Jon is going to be a some sort of zombie. How can you be more damaged goods than that?

[Éadaoin]

Dany's damaged goods. Jon would probably get some sought of venereal greyscale by touching her hand

Damaged goods? Really?

Wait, you're the one who said Robb had an Oedipus Complex. Never mind.

[Eelridge]

Damaged goods? Really?

Wait, you're the one who said Robb had an Oedipus Complex. Never mind.

And you disagree? Robb is a bit like Andy Murray, one a few battles nothing significant and took too much advice from his mother, bordering on an oedipus complex. He felt he had to fill the void of his father, etc..

[David Selig]

Dear God, please give me strength and maturity so that I don't swear at Patrick and get banned.

I disagree. Jon benevolently saved 3000 wildling's lives and wanted to save thousands more. He let them pass into his realm, gave them food and lodging and then offered them jobs if they wanted them. He forced the Watch to treat them respectfully when they were prone to being prejudicial. He integrated them SAFELY into his society and gave them a better future. The only person that has suffered from Jon's progressive view is the benefactor himself.

I think what Jon did trumps anything we have seen anyone do in the books. He accomplished it using only his own inner strength. He didn't have to kill thousands of people to garner his power. He didn't have to sleep with/marry someone to keep his power. He didn't have 3 deadly pets to scare people into giving him power. He earned respect and power the normal way- with his character and worthiness. And most importantly, he used his power to do good deeds when he had it.

Yeah, he's stabbed and may be dying. That doesn't negate the magnitude of what he just accomplished.

Jon let thousands of people pass through gates. People who had no other choice. That's it. Hardly a momentous achievement. Especially given that he got into a position of power which enabled him to do this mostly thanks to the effort of others (Sam, Bloodraven, Qhorin, etc). The jury is still very much out on their integration and how much trouble the wildlings may cause south of the Wall.

[WakeTheDragon]

And you disagree? Robb is a bit like Andy Murray, one a few battles nothing significant and took too much advice from his mother, bordering on an oedipus complex. He felt he had to fill the void of his father, etc..

Hahaha "nothing significant" that's rich lol

[NotSoSilentSister]

By title Dany is above Jon (being queen and all).But by character she is far below him.Jon does what is right against his emotions he left Yggritte for the watch.He tries to rescue his sister from a fate worse then death itself(being wife to ramsay)He acts strategicly planning his moves training getting stronger and not just physicly but mentally as well.Dany acts according to her emotions she marries a guy and beds another because she loves him or desires him whatever she has no plan for future not at all if Selmy wasn't with her i give her 3 weeks 4 weeks tops to survive.She unleashes untamed dragons and hopes they will eat just goats or cows then what happens she finds out they eat everything.She ignores her responsibilties to her people every place she goes she creates chaos.

Left Ygritte for the Watch - not everyone admires him for that. She vowed for him on her life, he betrayed her. Only to let the wildlings in eventually anyway. Still, from a pragmatic perspective it was probably for the best. Jon could do more for the wildlings in the position he gained after having defeated them.

Dany displays a similiar capacity to choose duty over love when she marries Hizdaar and decides to sort out the situation in Meereen instead of giving in to Daario's seductive "Red-Wedding-Meereenes-Style"-suggestion, accepting the offer of Xaro's fleet and hightailing it out of there to bring fire and blood to Westeros, which would have clearly been closer to her heart's true desire.

Riding to save Arya from Ramsay - thus betraying his vows to not interfere in political matters and basically selling out the Nightwatch. Again I think it's the right choice, and you could even argue from a pragmatic perspective - attack in this case might be the best defense - but it's clearly a choice heavily influenced by Jon's strong emotions for Arya. So is it praiseworthy or not to make emotional choices? You have to be consistent, honey.

Dany doesn't even have to be blood-related to someone to feel a strong desire to save them from terrible fates. Jon wanted to save one potential sex-slave; Dany tries to save thousands. She doesn't always succeed, but neither did Jon.

Getting mentally stronger - so does Dany. She was sold into marriage, quite a bit more vulnerable than Jon ever had to be, lost a child and a husband (which she had to mercy-kill herself), survived several assassination attempts, saw even more death and destruction than Jon and has proven incredibily resilient in spite of it all. She has not lost her capacity for empathy, which is quite a feat under these circumstances.

She marries a guy - to stop the slaughter of her freed men - and beds another - completly irrelevant; it's a political marriage and she's in the more powerful position; there's little expectation of sexual exclusivity. (It would be more of a problem if there was the danger of pregnancy, but right now she probably believes herself to be barren anyway due to the Mirri-Maz-ordeal).

No plan for the future - she does try to stabilize Meereen, negotiationg compromises with the nobles, trying to open new trade routs, looking for alternative sources of income, etc. It doesn't work too well but neither do Jon's plans. The rescue expidition to Hardholme was doomed to fail and will likely be a big disaster. The plan to attack Ramsay cost him his life. He's a slightly more successful on the financial front, managing to negotiate a loan from the Iron Bank to keep the turnips stocked at the Wall (and that's a bit banker-ex-machina who conveniently happens to stop by when needed; otherwise Jon would be pretty screwed too; when he sent Sam and Aemon to Bravoos he did not think about having them ask for a loan), but that's a rather easy task compared to having to completley innovate an entire economic system after having abolished slavery. Dany operates on a much larger scale than Jon; of course her successes are going to be less tangible for a while.

[NotSoSilentSister]

And you disagree? Robb is a bit like Andy Murray, one a few battles nothing significant and took too much advice from his mother, bordering on an oedipus complex. He felt he had to fill the void of his father, etc..

He was not taking enough advice from his mother....

[Eelridge]

Hahaha "nothing significant" that's rich lol

In the grand scheme they were not significant. Is the North independent? No. Is he alive? No

Is the North in a better place than before the war of kings? No

lol

[WakeTheDragon]

In the grand scheme they were not significant. Is the North independent? No. Is he alive? No

Is the North in a better place than before the war of kings? No

lol

That's relevant how? Is the guy who masterminded his death alive? No. Does anyone have controll of the 7 kingdoms yet? No. What is your point?

[Eelridge]

He was not taking enough advice from his mother....

He took advice from her at the wrong stages, in fairness he was probably burnt from when she released Jamie.

Robb is unintentionally a weak character that was too emotive and I feel lacked the stoicism of other Starks like Ned and Jon. This I attribute to the closeness to his mother

[Eelridge]

That's relevant how? Is the guy who masterminded his death alive? No. Does anyone have controll of the 7 kingdoms yet? No. What is your point?

What was your point to begin with? You were the one that said "That's rich"

I was just giving a qualification to my response