Harry Potter and The Methods of Rationality

[Gertrude]

Oh Pless, of course you are reading this :p

In particular I wasn't fond of the 'Here's your final test' aspect of the confrontation. He carefully put all the clues in the text for it to be solvable and it felt like one of those logic problems where you are given a situation and you get to ask yes or no questions to figure out what is really going on. It didn't feel organic.However, given EY's style, that shouldn't have surprised me. But as an example of the improbability of the situation, he had to hand V the idiot ball for this situation to exist. He left Harry his wand. It was very contrived.

But ultimately, that's not what's really bugging me. It seems to have quickly become too easy and neat. As Pless said, over the top evil Voldemort is ... it's just wrong to me. It seems jarring and I don't like it. I also really kind of despise the planned usage for the Stone. I know this is not *quite* over and a long chapter is coming, but Death is important. Maybe I was ultimately not going to like the ending because I disagree with the premise that it should be conquered.

[Gertrude]

Last chapter up - spoilers for the ENTIRE THING!

Meh. Don't get me wrong. I liked a lot of the last few chapters and how things resolved after the final conflict. It was just the final conflict that really doesn't sit well with me. And Harry's plans for the Stone. The Hermione resurrection I have come to terms with. It was done is probably the most realistic way it could have been done (the True Patronus), but it still feels a little wrong to me and I'm not sure why. I don't know what I was hoping for in this final chapter, but I didn't get it. I liked the reunion, but I guess I was hoping for it to cover more than just that.

That said, this was a great read and I would recommend it, but sadly, the ending was weak. It's possible that because of the long wait I had too much time to let it settle in my head and ponder possibilities, etc. Hermione was dead for a loooooooooong time in my brain. I think that's maybe why her resurrection isn't sitting well with me.

[felice]

There are certainly major long-term ramifications for curing death, but for any specific dying individual who wanted to live, would you really be happy admitting to them that you could save their life at no cost to yourself, but you're not going to because death is important?

[Gertrude]

It would be hard, but yeah. I don't know where the line should be drawn, but a hard line has to be drawn. This is why you set the rules before you have to look into someone's eyes and say no. I know this is fantasy, but the very real ramifications are something you need to take into consideration from the beginning. Adding years to Amelia Bones just because you can - totally unacceptable to me.

[felice]

If immortality was imposed on a population by an external power, would you institute compulsory executions of people who reached a certain age, Logan's Run style?

Large scale immortality would certainly need to be accompanied by a ban on having children on Earth. And in the really long term, they'd probably have to become rare enough that most people would never meet another real child after growing up themselves.

[Gertrude]

Hehe, yeah, Logan's run was going through my mind as well. But yeah. If you're going to give a gift to the population such as immortality, then there has to be some cost. I'd say an end date is not out of the question, but it's not where I'd go first. But if it was this, give the population a major boost - 200 maybe. Don't be stingy with just 40 :p.

And can you really see a society willingly give up on having children? I can't. Perhaps something along the lines of, if you have children, you sacrifice your immortality. Your gift to them. It would kinda cut down on unwanted pregnancies, but that doesn't seem like it would be a problem for magical folks anyway. (although a certain Tracy Davis comes to mind)

[felice]

But if it was this, give the population a major boost - 200 maybe. Don't be stingy with just 40 :P.

The philosopher's stone does age resets too; I'm not convinced 200-year-olds with the bodies of 20-year-olds are likely to be too keen on having their buckets kicked.

And can you really see a society willingly give up on having children? I can't. Perhaps something along the lines of, if you have children, you sacrifice your immortality.

The problem with that is what happens when people have second thoughts about giving up immortality once their kids have grown up and moved out? "You agreed to it fifty years ago" would be a pretty unconvincing excuse for denying rejuvenation to a dying couple. Sterilisation as the price of immortality would work better, but not perfectly; if each generation popped out a dozen sprogs before opting for immortality, you've still got a major exponential population growth problem, and it would mean all parenting would be done by people barely out of infancy themselves, without the benefit of centuries or millennia of experience to draw on. But in the short-to-medium term, "if you want kids that badly then move offworld" should be a viable approach.

[Gertrude]

These are bullshit reasons. I made a choice and enjoyed it but now my toy is broken and I want to back out of it ... whaaa! Also, age resets are cheap. Keep people alive and reasonably healthy and vigorous, but not forever young. Draw those lines clearly and firmly. I am still a firm believer of the importance of contrasts. How do you know you are happy unless you have sadness to compare it to? Why treasure youth if it's not fleeting? Let the newer generations come into their own by having the older gracefully exit the stage.

Essentially, I am rejecting Harry's premise that eternal life is a good and useful thing to accomplish. Heal the suffering, absolutely, but just no to immortality.

[Migey]

I'd agree, immortality is not a good thing. The notion terrifies me, actually (forever is a really long time). But presuming that through magic and science they could manage to work out ways to colonise other planets and the like, so there was enough room and resources for everyone, extending peoples lives idnefinitely until they themselves asked for it to end seems to me to be only a good thing.

Gertrude, while I massively agree with your point about contrasts, I think it can only apply so far. Sure, when I'm old and crooked I'll probably appreciate once having had a young body all the more for not having it then, and right now I'm glad I have my young, fit body (okay, I don't, I actually have a disgusting number of physical conditions/ailments but oh well) more for knowing that one day I won't. But that doesn't for a second mean that I wouldn't end up being happier keeping my body young and fit for as long as I'm alive. It would no longer be about treasuring youth, but about having a permanently physically capable body you could rely on and use to enjoy life. It would lose all meaning to have a fit body, but that's a small price to pay for not having to deal with the very negative aspects of that contrast. It's ultimately a good thing. And again with happiness, while I agree that everything is meaningless without something to compare it to, something being meaningless isn't necessarily a bad thing: my happiness is richer for the sadness I sometimes feel, but if I was just happy and didn't know that it wasn't as rich as it would be if I was sometimes sad, then that would still probably be better than, yknow, being sad any more than I had to be. We shouldn't not try and stop people from being unhappy just so they can think "man, I'm extra happy with my happiness because for once I'm not sad!". I know you weren't really implying that we should let people continue to be unhappy, but my point is more that your point about contrasts isn't really all that relevant. And anyway, re immortality, if people can live for exactly as long as they want to, and then die, then assuming we managed to find enough space in the solar system (or beyond) to comfortably live in, so that less people dying didn't cause any issue, then hey. What's the problem.

Although this is all coming from someone who would voluntarily choose to have his memories erased and go to live in Huxley's Brave New World, so maybe I'm just weird.

[Gertrude]

Well, I don't advocate for unnecessary suffering just for the sake of knowing what happiness is, or anything like that. And I would advocate for keeping people fit - just not necessarily young. Cure that arthritis, rejuvenate the lungs, give Bones a bit of spring in her step by all means - just don't make her a teenager because you can. And no, the contrasts point isn't a strong argument, but the spirit of it kind of speaks to how I feel about this situation.

Yeah - it's really the immortality part that is freaking me out. And I know Harry wants to colonize space, but ... that's not a reality, is it? So right now, possibly put the brakes on it Harry.

[felice]

I regret to say I have been inspired to filk. To the tune of My Sharona:

Ooh Dementors terrify, terrify

Maybe I can cast it next time - Patronus
Ooh I know what went awry, went awry
Think I'm gonna have to refine Patronus
Never gonna stop fighting death, let it end more minds
Always keep it up for the sake of our future kind
Ex ex ex ex pec to
Ex-Expecto Patronum!

Shouldn't be an animal, an animal
From the truth your psyche still shys, Patronus
Visualise the stars like jewels, stars like jewels
And the light of Earth in your eyes, Patronus
Never gonna stop fighting death, let it end more minds
Always keep it up for the sake of our future kind
Ex ex ex ex pec to
Ex-Expecto Patronum!

If you face mortality, mortality
It can end Dementors my new Patronus
We can have eternity, eternity
'Cause human is the form of the True Patronus
Never gonna stop fighting death, let it end more minds
Always keep it up for the sake of our future kind
Ex ex ex ex pec to
Ex-Expecto Patronum!
Oooooh My Patronus!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Logan's Run killed people at 30, not 40. I'd have been dead almost 14 years.