Harry Potter and The Methods of Rationality

[Migey]

That was great, but makes me so incredibly sad that the fiction is ending so soon. I suppose a concrete ending is better than continuing indefiniately past the point it was intended to.

[Gertrude]

No - not a new chapter. Let's get that out of the way.

However, I just remembered to check the site and there is a new update. The plan is to start posting again on Feb 15th and wrapping up the story in March. I'm thinking it's time for a re-read to get the details clear in my head again. Homestretch people!

[lessthanluke]

New chapter up/

[Slick Mongoose]

New chapter up/

In which the Dark Lord marks Harry as his equal.

Groan.

Nice to see it'll be finished soon.

[Slick Mongoose]

Another chapter up. A good one.

[Gertrude]

So can we just agree to dispense with spoilers from now on? I figure that if people are this deep into the thread then they've already decided to either read it or not. We're going to have a lot of chapters coming up in rapid succession and it's annoying to talk in spoilers. For one or two chapters, sure, but this is the big finale.

but since we haven't dispensed with them yet ...

It surprised me that Harry is just now putting this all together as it's been pretty much confirmed for us readers. I know that's probably unfair, but that was my reaction. Good reveal though and I can't wait to read more. I am sorta re-reading and just got to the chapter right after the Azkaban break out. Harry is sitting and pondering what all just happened and it's lots of deep introspection and thoughts about Quirrel, etc. In the middle of this, Harry's Hufflepuff voice chimes in with 'from up here, the trees blur together and you can almost see the shape of the forest ...' Harry quickly shuts it up and continues his rationalization of what he and Quirrel just did. It was brilliant. Reading that after reading the new chapter put it in better perspective for me. Harry almost touched the truth there, but quickly shut down that line of thinking and has almost been in denial ever since.

[felice]

So can we just agree to dispense with spoilers from now on?

As long as the first post discussing a new chapter starts with something like "There's a new chapter up! Go and read it if you haven't already, spoilers follow!", that's fine with me.

[Gertrude]

Good point. Sold.

[felice]

New chapter up.

And it ends with something really terrible: the next chapter (due today) is only going to be a short one!

[Slick Mongoose]

107 is up. We're really rocketing towards a conclusion now. Spoilers follow.

Voldemort enchanted his bones into broomsticks. Awesome.

Does anyone else think that the "power he knows not" will actually turn out to be love?

Also: In any case, the standard counter-Charm for a boggart is, of course, Fiendfyre. :lol:

[Gertrude]

Spoilers for 107

Yeah, the flying part was kinda awesome. I think Harry will have broomstick bones when this is all over and done.

I hope the power is not love. I want something better than that. I don't know that this will have a happy ending, but Harry has to beat V, right? I also kinda don't want to see Hermione brought back either. I mean I do, but that seems a bit cheesy. And a bit troubling. Unless Harry has come up with a brilliant plan on his own to bring her back and in that case I take back what I said :P

Anyway - next chapter has question and answer time, so ... *squee*

eta: okay two things. I said I was doing a re-read. I just read the part where H dies and Harry's dad's letter says something like 'we love you, and if that has any power to help you, feel free to call on it anytime'. So assigning a higher probability that love is actually a thing that will matter.

Also, I had forgotten about the burst of *something* that happened when H died. I'm wondering if Harry could have captured that and use it to resurrect her personality if not her body. So much I marked as important at the time that I've forgotten. Bleah.

[Gertrude]

So I've been thinking about some of the mysteries of this series and I have a few wild ass guesses.

Santa Clause is Sirius Black. He's been set up with the Weasley pet rat story and hasn't made an appearance. One of the notes said James had lent him the cloak and he's had good use of it over the years. I know he's supposed to be at Azkaban, but we don't know that. It just feels like he needs to pop up in the story. I know it doesn't seem to make sense, but that's what my gut says right now.

Quirrell is ... confusing. But I guess that for most of the story I've been feeling that he's a 'reformed' Dark Lord. Meaning I think he has regrets and sees Harry as a do-over. I mean, it could go either way (teaching him to be a Light Lord or learn from his mistakes to be a better Dark Lord). He has moments (crushing Skeeter) but mostly he just seems resigned and tired. Maybe V started his reign trying to be good (no one sees themselves as a villain, right?) but got frustrated with the stupidity of the people around him he was trying to help.

Tthis last little adventure is sort of confusing me. He's playing the evil villain and that doesn't seem to fit his MO so far. I feel like he's playing the expected role of the villain, specifically the using of professor Sprout. Harry was the one who originally proposed using Sprout like that as no one would expect her. So like I said, a little confused, but ultimately I think he's reformed and truly wants to help Harry be better.

Who killed H? Dunno. Quirrell seems the most obvious, but I would be surprised. I don't think Dumbledore is the bad guy Draco thinks he is. Malfoy doesn't feel right either. Is Snape a sleeper agent? Honestly, I am confused on this one, mainly because I don't think Quirrell did it.

I saw a theory that I liked - that Harry is in real danger of going bad and Quirrell is trying to stop that. His hostages are in fact, every living person because Harry is going to end the world in his attempt to thwart Death (according to the prophecy). Somehow, getting the Stone or .. whatever Q is doing will set Harry on the right path again. Maybe when the prophecy says 'he is here, the one who will tear apart the stars' it's referring to either literally destroying the world, OR Harry destroying Q, who can cast a spell to view the stars. (which, btw, I think he is doing through his connection to his horcrux on Pioneer. He's essentially streaming the universe in real time). A prophecy that can be read as correct either way it ends up?

It seem obvious that the remember-all lit up because real Harry was suppressed, but I'd like to see it come up again.

Probably forgetting a ton of stuff that I've wondered about over the years. I know it's not all going to be resolved in this next chapter, but I am hopeful that we will get some real meat.

(and just for Slick - I totally feel like I just did a mafia write-up on why I think X is innocent, even though I can't pinpoint why :P)

[Slick Mongoose]

That's a wishy washy defence if ever I've seen one. The real villain is obviously Gertrude.

[Slick Mongoose]

I don't think Sirius is in Azkaban either, don't forget Harry hearing "I'm not serious! I'm not serious". Someone else has taken his place. But didn't Dumbledore admit to being Santa? Unless he's lying. I do think Sirius will turn up at some point.

I don't think Quirrell is reformed. He's not quite the cackling evil he pretended to be as Voldemort, but he is someone who assigns no value to life other than his own, the opposite to Harry. He completely lacks empathy and has difficulty modelling other humans because of it. I think Quirrell and Harry are opposites in the same way that Avada Kedavra and the true Patronus are opposites. Harry could never cast Avada Kedavra (a magically embodied preference for death over life), and Quirrell could never cast the Patronus (a magically embodied preference for life over death).

And I think he did send the troll.

I wonder if, when he looked at the boggart, he was telling the truth about seeing the troll. Because that being his worst nightmare kind of makes sense, given how badly it backfired.

As for Quirrell's goal, that's the interesting part. It may be he's certain that he can get the stone and therefore ultimate power, and so doesn't mind looking evil. But I agree that it doesn't quite fit. For one thing I don't see how he can be so certain about getting the stone. I think it has something to do with bringing out Harry's "dark side".

Edit: I just reread a bit of chapter 29, and....

Hermione's cheeks were going even redder. "You're really evil, did anyone ever tell you that?"

"Miss Granger," Professor Quirrell said gravely, "it can be dangerous to give people compliments like that when they have not been truly earned. The recipient might feel bashful and undeserving and want to do something worthy of your praise.

Some great foreshadowing there.

[Slick Mongoose]

Back on the subject of the power of love..... I think I'd actually really like it if it turned out to be important. For one thing, I think HPMOR has played cannon a lot straighter than people sometimes think. All the major events and issues are there. For love to be missing would be strange.
For another thing, I think that it would actually be really interesting for a rationalist story, one focussed on the power of science and evidence, to have "the power of love" as a major plot point.

I'm also not sure that Harry and Quirell have ever touched each other. It might be played straighter than anyone imagines.

And i'm pretty sure it has been foreshadowed at some points.

“Professor McGonagall,” Harry said to the bemused witch strolling
beside him, “can you give me two words, one word for gold, and one
word for something else that isn’t money, in a language that I wouldn’t
know? But don’t tell me which is which.”
“Ahava and zahav,” said Professor McGonagall. “That’s Hebrew, and
the other word means love.”

Ahava is love. Sounds a bit like Avada. I wonder if, when Harry thought he heard Lily Potter trying to cast Avada Kedavra, she was actually casting a different sort of spell? This might be a bit of a stretch, but there is plenty more foreshadowing:

Thereare those who say that to comprehend evil is to become evil; but theyare merely pretending to be wise. Rather it is evil which does not know love, and dares not imagine love, and cannot ever understand love without ceasing to be evil.

Sounds like Quirrell to me.

“Love is more important than wisdom,” said Harry, just to test the

limits of Dumbledore’s tolerance for blindingly obvious cliches completed

by sheer pattern matching without any sort of detailed analysis.

The Headmaster nodded gravely, and said, “Indeed.”

Harry stood up out of the chair, and stretched his arms. Well, I’d

better go off and love something, then, that’s bound to help me defeat the Dark Lord. And next time you ask me for advice, I’ll just give you a hug—

“Only now I understand, I know what Mother must have
felt. She couldn’t step aside from the crib. She couldn’t! Love doesn’t
walk away!”

My favourite is:

“Well, yes, frankly,” Harry said. “Love is real, Professor, a phenomenon
with observable effects. Brains are real, emotions are real, and
love is as much a part of the real world as apples and trees. If you made experimental
predictions without taking parental love into account, you’d
have a heck of a time explaining why my own parents didn’t abandon
me at an orphanage after the Incident with the Science Project.”

The Defense Professor did not react to this at all.

And then there's most of chapter 93, where Quirrell tries to argue that love doesn't exist:

“Ordinary folk do not do as much, for those they call friends.” The
voice sounded more distant now, abstracted. “Not even for those they
say they love. Their companions die, and they do not go in search of
power to resurrect them.”
Harry couldn’t help himself. He looked over again, despite knowing
it would be futile, and saw only more stars. “Let me guess, from this you
deduce that… people don’t actually care as much about their friends as
they pretend.”
A brief laugh. “They would scarcely pretend to care less.”
“They care, Professor, and not just for their true loves. Soldiers
throw themselves on grenades to save their friends, mothers run into
burning houses to save their children. But if you’re a Muggle you don’t
think there’s any such thing as magic to bring someone back to life.

"Power the dark lord knows not" indeed.

[Gertrude]

I had forgotten about 'I'm not serious' in Azkaban, so absolutely he is showing up at some point. Did Dumbledore admit to being Santa? I've forgotten. Is it because he admitted to sneaking into Lily's room at night and we're supposed to draw that parallel? Still kinda want it to be Sirius.

As for love being the answer, yeah, it probably is. I guess what I really meant is that I hope it's done better than the books (but that kinda goes without saying.) Honestly, if it's done well then that's all I ask. Don't know why I am worrying, since this book delivers on a regular basis.

And I don't think V is a good guy, just not a bad guy. He doesn't have to be able to love to think he knows better than everyone else and want to 'optimize' the world. He's learned from his mistakes and wants to help Harry avoid making the same missteps.

As for the troll, I think that whoever sent it really meant for H to die. She had been sabotaged and a troll is deadly serious. It would have been a steep, steep test if that wasn't the desired result. Q's response was that Harry was sufficiently resolved after that happened (or some such). I admit that makes it look like likely he did it, but I am still reluctant to go with it.

Aaaaaaaand we shall see how wrong I am about all of this fairly soon.

[Which Tyler]

Partly just putting a post on so that I can find this thread again later.

Partly that he's in the process of finishing it all off; which is good timing from my part, as I've just started the last book on my re-read, so he should be finished shortly before I'm ready to read it.

Looking forward to it, and to reading this thread properly once it's no longer full of spoilers for me.

[felice]

Chapter 108 is up!

Speculation in spoilers because I've come up with a theory I think is plausible and could ruin the surprise if it turns out to be correct:

I think Quirrell is wrong; he hasn't destroyed all but a remnant of Harry; instead, Harry's mind holds only a remnant of Tom. The remnant is enough for the Map to recognise as someone it already knows, and it doesn't matter how different Harry is (someone returning to Hogwarts as an old woman will be very different to the person they were as a schoolgirl, but we wouldn't be surprised if the Map recognised them). In fact, I don't see a way for Quirrell to win, now; there's no way for him to allow a remnant of Harry to survive. He would have needed to raise Harry himself to get him to grow up as a proper Tom clone with just a remnant of Harry. Actually, I think the Map misidentifying Harry as Tom is absolutely crucial: what's to stop the Horcruxes doing the same thing? My bet is that Quirrell will indeed kill Harry, and in doing so make himself mortal because the Horcruxes will already be occupied. And now the Resurrection Stone is incorporated into the Horcruxes, Dead!Harry will be free to act in the way Quirrell wasn't, eg telling Dumbledore about Quirrell's new vulnerability.

It seems possible that "niceness" is the power he knows not, "something perhaps that he cannot comprehend at all, even having seen it" - he can fake it, but he doesn't understand it. I'm not sure how that would factor into his defeat, but then the prophecy only mentions the unknown power as a distinguishing feature, and doesn't explicitly state that it's the same as the power that can vanquish him.

[Gertrude]

spoilers for 108 follow

So I was kind half and half on Q. He is a bad guy (assuming he's not playing a part right now, not quite ready to let that go). A really bad guy and scarier than I imagined. His motivation was fear of muggles messing shit up out of ignorance and his own boredom.

What I think I did kind of get right was that he did want to be a Good Leader. It wasn't because he thought it was a priori 'better', just that it would be more efficient. What was making me lean towards him being 'reformed' or whatever, is that he was a really good teacher. He didn't just teach Harry, he taught everyone how to think and fight and things that would make his job much harder if/when he made his come-back. Well, that's explained now and it comes down to creating a challenge for himself. The stupidity of people is something that made him act 'worse', but someone who can casually make 107 horcrux was never even close to being redeemable.

I was also wondering if Harry captured Hermione's essence in the moment of her death in a horcrux and plans to resuscitate her body and activate the horcrux for Hermione to possess her own body. This was percolating in my mind and then this chapter has Harry talking about making horcrux for friends. I'm thinking that maybe he was able to capture here essence, but is not sure what to do with it yet because I don't think he has any idea of how to make a horcrux, or the will to kill anyone to make it. However, the killing of Q to make a Hermione horcrux would be a little awesome.

response to spoilers above -

I hadn't even thought of the horcrux recognizing Harry and working for him. Interesting, interesting. I guess I'm not seeing how the resurrection stone affects this. I get that if Harry is dead and stored in the horcrux, he occupies them all while waiting for one to be activated, but how does he communicate this info to anyone while in the horcrux? What do you mean by Dead!Harry?

As to a remnant of either Tom or Harry, I'm kind thinking he is mostly Riddle, but that a loving family has wrought more changes on Riddle than Q thought it would. Nature vs Nurture, and for someone who doesn't understand the nurture part of that equation, would underestimate it.Harry has too many Dark Lord moments and understands Q too well for there to be only a remnant of Riddle left. When the dementor attacked Harry, he had all warmth and happiness stripped from him and was blatantly and nakedly in Dark Lord mode.He mentioned to Hermione that he found pain and death funny and Hermione thought how different her experience was. I think if the dementor had stripped Harry to his core and his core was actually Harry, he'd have reacted more like her. The Riddle part of him was his core, and thus his reaction.

[felice]

I hadn't even thought of the horcrux recognizing Harry and working for him. Interesting, interesting. I guess I'm not seeing how the resurrection stone affects this. I get that if Harry is dead and stored in the horcrux, he occupies them all while waiting for one to be activated, but how does he communicate this info to anyone while in the horcrux? What do you mean by Dead!Harry?

As to a remnant of either Tom or Harry, I'm kind thinking he is mostly Riddle, but that a loving family has wrought more changes on Riddle than Q thought it would. Nature vs Nurture, and for someone who doesn't understand the nurture part of that equation, would underestimate it.Harry has too many Dark Lord moments and understands Q too well for there to be only a remnant of Riddle left. When the dementor attacked Harry, he had all warmth and happiness stripped from him and was blatantly and nakedly in Dark Lord mode.He mentioned to Hermione that he found pain and death funny and Hermione thought how different her experience was. I think if the dementor had stripped Harry to his core and his core was actually Harry, he'd have reacted more like her. The Riddle part of him was his core, and thus his reaction.

Quirrell talks about the Resurrection Stone being able to project images of the dead, and incorporating it into his Horcrux network to avoid a repetition of being stuck in the Horcruxes without any way to access the outside world. "[The Resurrection Stone] holds a more ancient magic than my own for projecting the seeming of a spirit... I have now incorporated it into my great creation." "Dead!Harry" meaning the Harry that will exist after his body has been killed and his mind transferred to the Horcrux network.

Harry's dark side is clearly the Riddle clone, and it's clearly subservient to the Harry aspect. I don't think Dementors strip you to the core, they just strip away happiness. The clone was far better able to function in that condition than Harry's dominant side, but I don't think that makes it any more real than the rest of him.