[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion

[scifi451]

I actually wanted to slap Sansa when she went "It's the only thing I ever wanted!"

Nonononono! D:

But good acting :o

I had the same thought pretty much. Sense we all know how bad that relationship ends up being.

Also have lurked here at the forum for past month or so since I finished reading the books and first post.

I have to say, it is a bit weird to revisit the discussions of the minutae of Dany and Drogo's marriage, these are discussions that have been had for more than a decade, and with all the new interpretations and the new scene we have to go over, it's picked the scab on some old wounds. By modern consensus the sex between the two is no doubt rape, but this isn't a modern story, and the fact that the modern consensus shapes our interpretation of the relationship doesn't necessarily make the motivations of the characters involved analogous to how we view rape from that same modern context. Drogo's intent is not to rape Dany so much as he simply would not understand the concept that sex with his new bride isn't something he can partake of whenever he wants. The failing is more cultural than personal, and as the series progresses we see the interesting ways in which their relationship is renegotiated.

Agree with you on that, I am a history major from college, and one the key things that I took away in terms of studying history or cultures is to place the actions in the context of that era and not try to place the morality and social norms of our present day society.

[Knight of Pansies]

I was waiting for Mark Addy to say the line, "the King eats, and the Hand takes the shit.", very disappointed. Maybe they'll put it in episode 2?

[ZombieWife]

Opening Title: AMAZING. Loved it. Have to go watch it again.

Ned: Bean is really hitting a home run.

Tyrion: Great for the short time on screen. Cannot wait to see more of him.

Catelyn: "How much can one of his . . . stature . . . drink?" (haha)

Jaime. As vividly villainous as I remember him to be. This is the character that (by book 3) I was thinking, "NO! I can't... start..... enjoying.... his perspective!"

I can't wait for Cersei to really get going as a character. Lena Headey is perfect in this role. Perfect.

From the clips, I was on the fence about Dany's story arc, but it was done so well. Emilia Clarke's performance was so moving and emotional. It makes me look forward to her really switching gears.

Viserys = deliciously creepy in his role.

On the topic of "rape" (Dany/Drogo). As a woman, I was really hit by that scene, especially because it was so different from the book's version in regard to the way Drogo treated Dany (and her potentially enjoying her wedding night in the books).

But, this is a different culture. And it's not like most of the women who are married in this book series wasn't married off to a man they didn't know and had to perform the same "wedding night duties." Because Drogo is a barbarian, does that make it any different?

The kids: all wonderful. Need more! Sansa is really well cast. She's such a beauty!

More more more.

[Convivial Edd]

Emilia Clarke. Oh yeah. :drool:

It's not pedo, if she's not actually underage, right?

Onto serious observations, other than the Jaime/cersei scene, I don't think there was any added scenes that I actually liked. Although, I do think Tyrion's first scene is the perfect way to introduce him to people who have never seen the show, I still didn't like it. I don't know, it just felt a little over the top.

In terms of the Dany/Drogo scene, I think there simply isn't the time in the show to drag out her first time. I think they handled that really well, honestly.

[Daenerys Stormborn]

The impression I get from the interviews is that the dogs they used for the direwolves (which were bred to look like wolves) are very difficult to train, and that they wanted to use them in more scenes but getting them to "act" was a real challenge. :( So we won't get as much direwolf action as we had in the books, alas. :frown5:

yea I remember reading something along those lines. I do hope the wolves are at least featured in some parts where they play large roles in the overall plot. (summer saving bran, nymeria attacking Joff, greywind fighting alongside rob, ghost... Well ghost is almost a main character he's so intertwined with Jon's chapters)

[juicy b0nes]

I have to say this episode was done quite well. To get through 8o pages of a book in an hour is an impressive, especially when it was done as elequently as this episode.

Closest character to the description in the book is Jaime imo.

[Wolfheart]

yea I remember reading something along those lines. I do hope the wolves are at least featured in some parts where they play large roles in the overall plot. (summer saving bran, nymeria attacking Joff, greywind fighting alongside rob, ghost... Well ghost is almost a main character he's so intertwined with Jon's chapters)

Yes, HBO has quite the challenge to overcome if we get a season two. The pups grow up to be bigger, and well Ghost is seen far more. As well with Grey wind and Summer. We lose Lady quickly and Nymeria gets driven off.

[HawkZ]

Agree with you on that, I am a history major from college, and one the key things that I took away in terms of studying history or cultures is to place the actions in the context of that era and not try to place the morality and social norms of our present day society.

I'm completely perplexed by the show's choice with the Dany/Drogo consummation. I understand the argument that given both Westeros and Dothraki norms, the Dany/Drogo scene would not be culturally framed as rape...

But from a character point of view the scene we say had a consent dynamic that was very very different then the book. In the book, you can argue that Dany's entire situation was coercive and out of her control and de-facto rape... But the fact of the matter is he asks for consent before they actually have sex, and she gives it.

On the show he pushes her to her knees, crying. I'm at a loss as how these scenes can be seen as remotely the same in terms of the development of Dany and Drogo's dynamic. That's not to say that the show isn't changing that dynamic in an interesting or generative way, but that scene was a lot to swallow.

[Daenerys Stormborn]

Disregard this post. My stupid iPhone double posted my response. I thought leaving the laptop and coming to bed would surely force me to sleep. But here I am posting via my phone in the dark.

[Dragonfish]

1. Although the woman playing Cat is a fine actress who shares good chemistry with Sean Bean, she seems very old for Ms. Stark. Cat is supposed to be in her mid-30s. Also, not to be mean, but she's not pretty enough.

Ugh. Getting really tired of hearing this. All the characters are aged up from the books, including Ned. He's 35 at the start of the book, but in the show he's played by a 50-year-old Sean Bean. But apparently it's ok for him to have wrinkles, but not Catelyn.

And personally, I think Michelle Fairley looks pretty fine for a woman of her age.

2. Something that struck me as strange - the Kingsguard was never mentioned, and although Jaime was wearing a white cloak, his membership in said Kingsguard never came up. Nor did anyone call him Kingslayer. I'm sure that'll just come in a later episode - but it's such an important part of his character that I felt like it should at least be shown. Also, to nitpick further, Jaime was wearing the same armor as the other knights, presumably Kingsguard, who should be wearing white armor.

Ran did mention in his review that the Kingsguard were not really dwelled upon much, they're just sort of shown as random bodyguards while their venerable and auspicious history isn't mentioned. A bit disappointing, but I suppose it was inevitable given the time constraints.

Also, the Kingsguard don't have white armor in the show. The producers tried giving them white armor, but it didn't look good on camera so they changed it. Personally, I kind of like the look of their new armor.

[scifi451]

Yes, HBO has quite the challenge to overcome if we get a season two. The pups grow up to be bigger, and well Ghost is seen far more. As well with Grey wind and Summer. We lose Lady quickly and Nymeria gets driven off.

Agree with they do if get a second season. One of the many interesting challenges that they face in the next book.

[Josiah Rowe]

yea I remember reading something along those lines. I do hope the wolves are at least featured in some parts where they play large roles in the overall plot. (summer saving bran, nymeria attacking Joff, greywind fighting alongside rob, ghost... Well ghost is almost a main character he's so intertwined with Jon's chapters)

I'm sure that the wolves will show up in at least the first two instances. We might only hear about Grey Wind fighting alongside Robb, though. And Ghost will be around some at the Wall, but not as constantly at Jon's side as he is in the books, I expect.

Ugh. Getting really tired of hearing this. All the characters are aged up from the books, including Ned. He's 35 at the start of the book, but in the show he's played by a 50-year-old Sean Bean. But apparently it's ok for him to have wrinkles, but not Catelyn.

And personally, I think Michelle Fairley looks pretty fine for a woman of her age.

:agree:

[Convivial Edd]

Agree with they do if get a second season. One of the many interesting challenges that they face in the next book.

Eh, if Being Human can make a decent looking cgi wolf on syfy's budget, I'm not too concerned.

I think the much bigger shot of fuck up is the last Dany scene in aGoT. CGI fire ALWAYS looks like shit.

EDIT: and Michelle Fairly is totally a coug.

[NW Deserter]

Agree about Fairley. She's a little plain, but still attactive enough for me to see her as Catelyn.

One character I'm not looking forward to seeing is Lysa...caught a glimpse of her in one of those "behind the scenes" things and was very disappointed. Way too unattractive, but eh. She's not a HUGE character.

[snookyrump]

What?! No somersaulting Tyrion?!

For shame, for shame.

:smoking:

[Seerow]

Agree about Fairley. She's a little plain, but still attactive enough for me to see her as Catelyn.

One character I'm not looking forward to seeing is Lysa...caught a glimpse of her in one of those "behind the scenes" things and was very disappointed. Way too unattractive, but eh. She's not a HUGE character.

Really? Lysa always struck me as being very unattractive in the books. She may have been pretty when she was young, but it was made pretty clear she had gotten fat and ugly by the time we first meet her.

[Xenophon]

Following Rockroi's example, here are some things I liked, didn't, and am on the fence about. I'll also add my wife's comments on a few things.

By the way, I'm a fairly casual fan of the series (I liked the books, but didn't love them) and my wife has never read them. I looked through the articles on this forum to get up to speed last week, though, so I pretty much knew the story in advance. My wife had no idea.

What I Liked:

That they showed it 3 times (especially since the 1st time conflicted with the Celtics game). Very good move by HBO.

The costumes. They did a great job of setting the right tone for a fantasy show without looking cheesy (except some of the Dothraki ones). I felt like this was a different but very real world. My wife thought everyone looked too clean, though, so I guess you can't please everyone.

Tyrion. My wife thought his line about how all dwarfs are bastards in the eyes of their fathers was the best thing in the show.

Viserys. I hope they expand his role slightly; it would be a shame to only see him in a couple more scenes.

What I'm on the fence about:

The amount of explanation. For example, the initial explanation that Arryn(?) had died went by way a bit too quickly, for my wife who had never heard of a "Hand" let alone that character. Also the explanation of Robert's connection to Lyanna wasn't explained until they were in the crypt, making it impossible for new viewers to understand what is happening when Robert insists on paying his respects immediate after arriving at Winterfell, and Cersei is annoyed. On the other hand, I'm not sure what else they could have done that wouldn't have been painfully boring.

The nudity. Some of it worked (like others said, Dany being nude conveyed her vulnerability. But some of it seemed excessive--I got the point with one whore, 4 more was felt gratuitous.

What I didn't like:

Drogo's wedding. Not the scene after, but the wedding itself. I thought it looked weirdly low-budget compared to everything else in the show. He's supposed to be this great lord with 40,000 warriors, but his wedding looked like it had all of 50 people at it. Also, I thought the Dothraki sex-and-fighting looked pretty silly. I know it's basically described that way in the book, but I thought it looked cheesy. Perhaps the costumes had something to do with that. Also, I thought the dragon eggs looked like giant plastic pine cones.

The scene where they find the direwolves. It comes out of the blue and didn't seems to have much significance compared to in the book, where it feels like an important moment.

Overall Impressions:

I thought it was good, but a bit too rushed. The best scene, IMO, was Will's execution near the beginning, because they let it develop slowly so each line had weight. The rest of the show felt hurried in comparison.

My wife, on the other hand, was not a fan. She found it too creepy and intense, and said the combination of killings and abused women is going to give her nightmares. Pace Ginia Bellafante, the sex didn't make up for the rest. In fact, she found it fairly gross. Obviously she's not HBO's target market, but wonder if playing up the horror of Drogo/Dany was really wise for bringing in casual viewers.

[Bronn Stone]

In the same boat as others who preceded me. Loved a lot of it, put off a bit by Dany/Drogo, really impressed with the Stark kids (Sansa looks like a precocious fourteen-year old, which is exactly what Sophie was when this was filmed - close enough to 13). Sad to see the Bran-Tommen duel removed even more than Joffrey-Robb (which might still happen) - Bran and Tommen having fun as a pair of boys gives us a nice contrast to the future Stark-Lannister feud.

Boy I wish this could have been a 90 minute episode (with this 60 minute cut to be used in later syndication). Too much had to be too rushed.

But none of this compares to seeing the return of Dalla to the forums. Woo Hoo! (wave to Vico)

[Brude]

Okay, I can't wade through 11 pages just now, so I'll just post...

I was really buzzed on some of the best beer I've ever had for my first time through, so I missed a LOT of details. I watched it again because my roommate got stuck at the airport for several hours (long story), so when he got home we watched it again together.

My overall feelings, I loved it. Not sure if it works for non-readers, but it sure worked for me. I did miss Dany jumping her Silver over the fire and felt the consumation of their marriage ended on a very different note than in the book, where she goes from fear to passionately enjoying it (at least that's how I always read it, and so did all of my friends and my roommate who I watched it with).

The pacing was a bit quick for my tastes, too. Ever since first reading the pilot script way back when, I've felt that HBO should have given them at least 90 minutes to flesh out the story a bit more - have enough time to breath between scenes, or within scenes as well as offer a bit more information for the viewers. I hope it works for those new to the story. It's y biggest fear for the first few episodes.

Interesting note about my little party, one of my friends brought over a girl he's started seeing and apparently she did some of the write-ups for Jon Snow in the Suvudu Cage Match fights. I thought that was pretty neat! Nice girl, too. I liked her.

[Analu]

I thought it was fantastic. Got chicken skin in the opening scene with the Wall and the opening credits were epic. I kept saying to myself, "I can't believe we're actually seeing this on TV!"

The Stark kids are perfectly cast and I love Sean Bean as Eddard. Can't wait to see more.

Minor nitpicks: the Others look like Predators (though that's not necessarily a bad thing, I guess), and the dragon eggs look like big avocados. Also, they should've put some elevator shoes on Robert to make him more imposing, as in the book. Also, what happened with the purple eyes? Must not have tested well.