Kalbear Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Martin's world is as he designed it. And therein lies the rub.Why design a world that has savages be dark skinned?Why design a world where the 'civilized' races are white?Yes, it makes sense to show these things. It makes sense that there is racism and sexism and the Dothraki are 'savages' in the eyes of Dany and that women are abused and do not have the power that men do because GRRM designed it that way - but there is not an explicit reason for that.Now we happen to know the explicit reason - he did so because he wanted to model it very heavily on our history, and as a result he takes a lot of our biases with them. And that sucks, but there it is. He goes out of his way to try and show that while the world is sexist it is clearly wrong, and that women have plenty of power outside of fucking and breeding. He tries to show that the Dothraki and lots of other cultures are pretty awesome in their own right and have their own sense of sense. At the same time, when you trim that down, show only the briefest notion of it, and then put it on the screen - it starts looking like prejudices are abounding.Would the Dothraki have been LESS racist if GRRM had written them as blonde hair / blue eyed? Or would it just be racism from a different Point of View? Racism isn't objective. The reason racism is at all important is because of existing societal biases. Doing it another way - if the Targs looked Mongolish and the Dothraki were all blonde - would most certainly not be racist because it does not invoke historical biases. And that's the real problem. Put it a more simple way: a black guy wearing white facepaint: not racist. A white guy wearing black facepaint: racist. You might not like that this is the case, but that doesn't change the fact that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balefont Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Again, I see the Dothraki people as being darker skinned out of necessity for the environment in which they live. I found some of the Northern cultures (ahem, wildlings) to be equally savage and barbaric yet they're lighter skinned. They're lighter skinned due to lack of sun exposure. Even the Ironborn are savage and barbaric IMO. So, I don't see this a race thing - as it's known in our world - at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizoakiusMaximus Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Put it a more simple way: a black guy wearing white facepaint: not racist. A white guy wearing black facepaint: racist. You might not like that this is the case, but that doesn't change the fact that it is. I considered the Wayan's Brothers, "White Chicks" be be racist and hypocritcal in the extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenophon Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Start a new thread to complain about the Dothraki! I want to complain about gratuitous ass-shots without distractions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 <mod>I created a new topic on the Dothraki and portrayals of race, FYI, just to keep this topic centered on nudity and sexuality. It's not as if this thread doesn't have enough controversial stuff already.</mod> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I considered the Wayan's Brothers, "White Chicks" be be racist and hypocritcal in the extreme. And as a white male, you've got that privilege. It doesn't work the other way around. Sorry you're inconvenienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizoakiusMaximus Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 And as a white male, you've got that privilege. It doesn't work the other way around. Sorry you're inconvenienced. Well, I was being a bit facetious. However, racism is a two way street. It's not just something that racial majorities have cornered the market on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutronicus Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 True, but as a couple people mentioned above, things that are fine on the page can become pretty creepy on screen. i.e. Ned and Catelyn naked post-coitus works fine in the book to show they are a healthy married couple; on screen, it would have been distracting and voyeuristic. I disagree, I think it would have been a nice scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Well, I was being a bit facetious. However, racism is a two way street. It's not just something that racial majorities have cornered the market on. Racism that matters is something that majorities have cornered the market on. Racism without power is meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquariumDrinker Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Keep your race outta my sex, I think they made another thread for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CryFenril Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I mentioned in another thread that I think HBO went a wee bit overboard with the fappy-bits (as did my hubby, who is a former strip-club DJ), so I won't reiterate that here. What I will say is that, despite the overindulgence in female flesh, for me most of the gratuitous scenes actually worked. Did we necessarily need to see bare breasts for Tyrion's multiple whores? Probably not. But the fact that Jaime went so overboard in procuring his little brother a mound of flesh speaks volumes as to their relationship (and adds a well-placed chuckle, especially with the "Close the door!" comment) and Jaime's desire to show affection for his brother in his own weird way. I was not so distracted by the sight of something that I wash in the shower every day as to miss the significance of what was happening between the two men in the scene. Boobs is boobs. And Dany's bath scene? We probably didn't need a slow pan of her rear end to get the idea that she likes her bathwater super-hot... but it did emphasize her feminine fragility. She is young, and newly curvy, and very desirable. It helps to establish her beauty and why Drogo would agree to marry her at a moment's notice - while preserving her fragility and emergent womanhood. But necessary? Nah, not really. But again, it didn't detract from the point of the scene for me. I was actually a bit thrilled that they picked a woman who has a substantial caboose to portray Dany - bring the Rubenesque back into Rubenesque Beauty! Let curvy women be beautiful and desirable again!I did not find myself offended by the wedding/marriage scenes (as discussed in the Dany/Drogo thread). I would have handled it a bit differently, but I am not a writer for ANY broadcast company, major or no, so I don't exactly have a pedestal to jump onto. Bottom line, the nudie-shots were neither a necessity or a deal-breaker for me. I do think they were overblown in an attempt to garner reaction from the viewing audience, but they did not offend me to the point of disappointing me. I am old enough (ye gods, too old, lol) to know that TV does that. I expect it. The show was true enough in other ways to make me glad that I spent the money getting HBO to have it. And I will happily pay an extra monthly bill to keep seeing it. HBO, if you're paying attention, take note of that last sentence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutronicus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I was actually a bit thrilled that they picked a woman who has a substantial caboose to portray Dany - bring the Rubenesque back into Rubenesque Beauty! Let curvy women be beautiful and desirable again!Hear, hear!Now, if only her upper lip weren't shot full of collagen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabberwookie Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I agree that by now equity dictates seeing an equal amount of dick or male buttocks in proportion to female tits and ass but in this instance (the Tyrion whorehouse scene) would it really work? That scene had a comedic feel and seeing his dick (unless it had a finger puppet on it) I think would have spoiled the whole bawdy/comedic feel. Perhaps they should have showed his ass for comedic/realism purposes?I think that dick nudity would have worked better in the Jaimie woof/woof scene. They could have shown a side view of his sword before thrusting it into Cersei. Subsequently, as Brandon enters hopefully there would be sufficient attenuation between the Kingslayer's member and the appearance of the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hmm... nudity != erect phallus. That's rated X territory. You can probably get an NG17 for a flaccid penis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizoakiusMaximus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hmm... nudity != erect phallus. That's rated X territory. You can probably get an NG17 for a flaccid penis. They definitely got away with quite a bit flaccid penis in Rome. I still crack up everytime I hear Atia say "Large penis is always welcome." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 They definitely got away with quite a bit flaccid penis in Rome.Oz is choke full of them, too. But none in the erect state as someone suggested for Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabberwookie Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hmm... nudity != erect phallus. That's rated X territory. You can probably get an NG17 for a flaccid penis.I only saw the first season of Spartacus on Starz but IIRC there was a lot of gladiator dick in that series and it was MA rated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CryFenril Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hear, hear!Now, if only her upper lip weren't shot full of collagen...Hey, as long as she wasn't up to Jolie standards, I'll accept it. Besides, her eyes were absolutely gorgeous, violet or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Oz is choke full of them, too.Okay, that was pretty funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizoakiusMaximus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Oz is choke full of them, too. But none in the erect state as someone suggested for Jaime. Freudian slip? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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