[BOOK SPOILERS] Nudity and Sexuality in HBO's GoT

[reiver]

I'm not sure about the architecture but i read a pretty big debate about the climatolgical wonkiness in the forums. It may not have been a thread dedicated to that alone but there was pages of posts about it.

Architecture and climate are for the most part to set the scene and stay in the background. Nudity used the same way has its place as well. That said it's bizarre that you think me considering sexuality to be a bigger part of the series than the shape of a roof is somehow an example of prurience. It motivates and drives so much of the plot, much more than KL having palm trees.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I don't believe George has ever said that about not writing male-male sex scenes because it does not do anything for him. Someone interpreted some remark of his that way once, but I recall that not seeming to fit what was actually reported. So, anyways.

I don't see the problem in wanting the show to do better in regards to nudity. The Dothraki and Jaime having their pants on and zipped up while miming copulating was just ... silly, and I simply don't understand that. It was juvenile. If they're going to show sex, SHOW sex, or at least some reasonable simulacrum of it that doesn't make you laugh because it makes absolutely no sense.

So... yeah, that's a complaint about the sex scenes.

As far as Dany's nudity, it's important to her arc, I think. It emphasizes her vulnerability. But this first episode is rather top-heavy with the female nudity. Partly because that's how George wrote it, partly because it's HBO.

Yeah the pants things threw me off a bit, i was like "are they wearing pants?" there are ways you can show nudity without the actors being naked, you could always have flesh colored uderwear if you don't want to actually show off anything. i'm not really sure why they decided to go with pants, i can understand why they choose doggy style for the Jaime and Cersei though, since Headly was pregnant at the time.

[SergioCQH]

I think the number of bare-chested males in the first episode far outnumber the number of bare-chested females. And I do believe that a significant number of feminists believe females should have the same right as males to go bare-chested. So as far as breasts are concerned, there's an argument to be made that the imbalance is actually going the other way.

[Jabberwookie]

With Tyrion, it appeared that they were trying to impress on the uninitiated viewer that the little man carried a big rep. I think it's easy to forget that the average viewer of this series has utterly no idea who these characters are and what is going on--a bit of exaggeration and spoon-feeding is necessary. I venture that most viewers when first being confronted w/ a character such as Tyrion judge him by his physical stature--wondering whether he is the King's fool or some form of royal entertainment. By hyping the "Imp" and portraying him as a celebrity w/ a star struck whore posse it reinforces the notion that he's a man of import. His other (more troubled) side was revealed in the John Snow convo about bastards. Consequently, in this early episode the viewer is given a brief glimpse into his conflicted nature.

[FilliamHMuffman]

The only sex or nudity in the pilot I objected to was the fucking at the Dothraki wedding. Tyrion at the whorehouse was a little too over the top and bordered on camp at the end, but understanding Tyrion's whoring is essential to understanding his character, his relationship with his father and how the rest of the world views him. And the scenes with Dany were used quite effectively to reveal her vulnerability and insecurity. It goes without saying that Jaime and Cersei's relationship is central to the plot of the first novel.

On the other hand, I think the depiction of the Dothraki in the TV series is problematic. While on one level, it is mostly faithful to the original, the TV show is replacing a subjective viewpoint with an objective one. The Orientalist qualities of the Dany chapters in the books could be taken at face value or alternately understood as the ignorant observations of a foreigner in an alien culture. This ambiguity is lost on TV. I for one would not have objected to a less literal, more nuanced approach to the Dothraki to account for the change of perspective.

I have not seen episode 1.2 yet, but basing this solely off the preview, the Doreah/Dany scene seems to be a gratuitous addition. For that matter, I was not a fan of the Cersei and Dany lesbian scenes in the novels, either, not because I have a problem with lesbians, but they struck me as fan service and out of character for the characters involved.

[Kaitscralt]

but they struck me as fan service and out of character for the characters involved.

I think by "fan service" you should mean "self-service" by GRRM. It's clear that he has some fetishes that he emphasizes on writing.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

With Tyrion, it appeared that they were trying to impress on the uninitiated viewer that the little man carried a big rep. I think it's easy to forget that the average viewer of this series has utterly no idea who these characters are and what is going on--a bit of exaggeration and spoon-feeding is necessary. I venture that most viewers when first being confronted w/ a character such as Tyrion judge him by his physical stature--wondering whether he is the King's fool or some form of royal entertainment. By hyping the "Imp" and portraying him as a celebrity w/ a star struck whore posse it reinforces the notion that he's a man of import. His other (more troubled) side was revealed in the John Snow convo about bastards. Consequently, in this early episode the viewer is given a brief glimpse into his conflicted nature.

Right. This is the point I was trying to make (only not as effectively).

[Son of Thunder]

There seems to be a disconnect between the idea that some people are reinforcing - that these protrayls makes perfect sense because it helps to develop the character, necessitated by the book character development - and the idea that HBO chose specific ways to depict these things so that they, in effect, highlighted the erotic and titillating aspects of the events.

More than that, looking at the alterations made by HBO in the sexual aspects of the show, EVERY ONE was an alteration that further degraded the women involved. Dropping a nude couple in love in favor of multiplying whores. Increasing Dany's status as Viserys' (and then Drogo's) "property" to be given and taken. Cersei on her hands and knees instead of on her feet. Every single move that HBO made was in the direction of women becoming animals and objects instead of people. It wasn't about sexuality. It was about degradation and sexism. If HBO doesn't turn it around, they will have lost me as a viewer.

At least I'll always have the books.

[Son of Thunder]

On the other hand, I think the depiction of the Dothraki in the TV series is problematic. While on one level, it is mostly faithful to the original, the TV show is replacing a subjective viewpoint with an objective one. The Orientalist qualities of the Dany chapters in the books could be taken at face value or alternately understood as the ignorant observations of a foreigner in an alien culture. This ambiguity is lost on TV. I for one would not have objected to a less literal, more nuanced approach to the Dothraki to account for the change of perspective.

Agreed. A friend of mine has not read the books, and decided to stop watching after the first episode due to what he saw as the racism in HBO's portrayal of the dark-skinned savages and their victimization of the innocent White girl.

[fitheach]

I think the number of bare-chested males in the first episode far outnumber the number of bare-chested females. And I do believe that a significant number of feminists believe females should have the same right as males to go bare-chested. So as far as breasts are concerned, there's an argument to be made that the imbalance is actually going the other way.

This is disingenuous, our society sexualizes womens breasts quite a bit more than a mans bare chest. Are you on this thread just to be devils advocate?

Ok, maybe I can explain this to you in a way you'll understand. I was a film editor for over a decade so this is coming from my experience working in the industry. The scene with Dany was too long from an editors perspective, and possibly because they needed to tack on a couple more minutes to the show... So, you have a few extra seconds here in one scene, a few seconds there in another scene, to do this... This is why the show came off as choppy (or clunky) to me. The regular viewer will notice this if not done in a way the blends seamlessly. I imagine most who have posted on this thread have read the novels and watch HBO shows- so nudity and sex are not an issue. What I think people noticed is that the Dany scene seemed to be too much, maybe not understanding that a few seconds makes all the difference between nudity working in a scene, or borderline soft pornish... It really only takes a few seconds for the viewer to see that there's something off. As for the scene with Tyrion in the whorehouse- that wasn't in the novels. Dave and Dan decided this was the best way to introduce his character and his relationship with Jaime (and Cersei). Fine, I have no problem with this scene. But tacked on with the slighly too long Dany scene (which is important to her character, but a poor decision to have too long), along with the Dothraki Wedding (necessary) with the silly dry humping (could've been done better), the scene between Dany and Drago (necessary), and the Cersei and Jaime twincestathon (necessary, but a little long on the thrusts- again making those few extra seconds work in the editing suite...).... The choice to set up Tyrion's character in a whorehouse could have been different, maybe it shouldn't have been in a whorehouse. Even for HBO- it was a bit much and frankly not offensive to me, just poor scene and editing choices. Again, this could've been all because of the re-shoot. I know how the script was written, but it translated badly in some instances. Between the above mentioned scenes, were others that could've been a bit longer- say, the scene between Jon and Tyrion, or Tyrion and Sandor... So, it was the choice to linger on Dany's butt and having extra whores run into Tyrions arms or cut out a line or two between other characters- that's annoying to me.

Also, what you said about other HBO shows having nudity- True Blood has lots of it yes, and I love the show- it's hilarious, but it works with the story as campy and over-the-top. No one takes the show seriously, it's called smart bubblegum entertainment for a reason. Boardwalk Empire, the only thing that bugs me is casting Paz de la Huerta as Lucy. She is totally wrong for a period show. Fake boobs, fake lips... Every time she gets naked (which is often) it's jarring to see her fake breasts- not because I have a problem with fake breasts per se, but because it takes me out of a period scene. Commenting on the nudity in GoT is not any different than commenting on Lucy being bad physical casting (her acting is perfectly fine). If it's jarring to the viewer because it's walking the line of soft porn by choosing to have a long cut on Dany or ridiculous dry humping- they're bad choices, and we expect better from HBO (and for this show).

P.S. I would suggest not going on about feminists and puritans- it seems to reveal your own issues. ;)

[Xenophon]

With Tyrion, it appeared that they were trying to impress on the uninitiated viewer that the little man carried a big rep. I think it's easy to forget that the average viewer of this series has utterly no idea who these characters are and what is going on--a bit of exaggeration and spoon-feeding is necessary. I venture that most viewers when first being confronted w/ a character such as Tyrion judge him by his physical stature--wondering whether he is the King's fool or some form of royal entertainment. By hyping the "Imp" and portraying him as a celebrity w/ a star struck whore posse it reinforces the notion that he's a man of import. His other (more troubled) side was revealed in the John Snow convo about bastards. Consequently, in this early episode the viewer is given a brief glimpse into his conflicted nature.

I agree to some extent. But I think that point could have been conveyed just fine with only one whore. Setting him up as a mini Charlie Sheen with whole posse of hookers wasn't necessary to make the point that he is important, and I think it distorts our view of how he is viewed by society. IIRC, in the book, his whoring is explicitly said to be a pretty sad affair, with the whores often being visibly repulsed by him. There was no sign of that in the scene. If anything, viewers got the impression that dwarfs have no trouble with the ladies in Westeros.

[ser_nerdick]

Cersei on her hands and knees instead of on her feet. Every single move that HBO made was in the direction of women becoming animals and objects instead of people. It wasn't about sexuality. It was about degradation and sexism. If HBO doesn't turn it around, they will have lost me as a viewer.

I'm only just rereading the books now, but I really don't recall them being full of gallant knights who romantically woo damsels in distress at candlelit dinners. There was quite a bit of sex for sex's sake in the novels. Dany's wedding night in particular, whether she ended up getting into it or not, was all about subservience and degradation... she was essentially being traded to a barbarian horselord in exchange for mercenaries!

And since when is doggy style intrinsically degrading to the woman? It's one of a few basic natural positions for humans to have sex in, and I agree with the many others who thought HBO did it this way so that Cersei's face could initially be hidden (or maybe the preggers thing).

[Kaitscralt]

Without getting into the details of why doggy style is preferred for both partners many times (sadly, there ARE polls for this sort of thing), we can at least take solace that right before being caught it appeared that Jaime was lifting Cersei's face in some sort of caress or kiss. So it was not totally animalistic.

Besides, she was preggers. They gotta make due while she's still due...

[neutronicus]

I agree to some extent. But I think that point could have been conveyed just fine with only one whore. Setting him up as a mini Charlie Sheen with whole posse of hookers wasn't necessary to make the point that he is important, and I think it distorts our view of how he is viewed by society. IIRC, in the book, his whoring is explicitly said to be a pretty sad affair, with the whores often being visibly repulsed by him. There was no sign of that in the scene. If anything, viewers got the impression that dwarfs have no trouble with the ladies in Westeros.

Yeah, I agree. Also, like I said earlier, the whores were just too hot. My measuring stick is Cersei - you shouldn't be able to find a whore better looking than Cersei outside of Alayaya's. In the book, there was a pretty clear hierarchy of who is more attractive than whom, and whose beauty is legendary throughout the land (one guard quips to another: "and I want Cersei Lannister to suck my cock, but we can't have everything we want"). Random knockout whores in a brothel at the ass end of nowhere (and look at the inside of that brothel - it is not a nice one) throw that scale all out of whack.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Agreed. A friend of mine has not read the books, and decided to stop watching after the first episode due to what he saw as the racism in HBO's portrayal of the dark-skinned savages and their victimization of the innocent White girl.

This TV show (and GRRM's writings, for that matter) isn't designed for the easily offended.

I must say I'm a bit surprised that some of the folks in this thread managed to finish reading the books without tossing them aside in disgust.

[ser_nerdick]

Yeah, I agree. Also, like I said earlier, the whores were just too hot. My measuring stick is Cersei - you shouldn't be able to find a whore better looking than Cersei outside of Alayaya's. In the book, there was a pretty clear hierarchy of who is more attractive than whom, and whose beauty is legendary throughout the land (one guard quips to another: "and I want Cersei Lannister to suck my cock, but we can't have everything we want"). Random knockout whores in a brothel at the ass end of nowhere (and look at the inside of that brothel - it is not a nice one) throw that scale all out of whack.

I agree, but this reinforces my opinion that they made a bad casting choice for Cersei. She sets the standard for "beauty legendary throughout the land" pretty low (again, IMO).

[neutronicus]

I agree, but this reinforces my opinion that they made a bad casting choice for Cersei. She sets the standard for "beauty legendary throughout the land" pretty low (again, IMO).

I think hair and makeup are quite enough to show which women have the time and money to take care of themselves. I mentioned earlier that I thought Rome was an example of a show that did this well. Attia was much more desirable than Titus Pullo's various whores, and I think this was mainly accomplished with hair and makeup.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

I agree, but this reinforces my opinion that they made a bad casting choice for Cersei. She sets the standard for "beauty legendary throughout the land" pretty low (again, IMO).

There is no way - NO WAY - they could have possibly pleased everyone with that particular casting choice. "Beauty" is just too subjective.

I happen to like Lena Headey's looks but more than that I'm thankful they got a decent actress who emotes well and doesn't chew the scenery too much. Cersei could very easily have been portrayed too overtly shrill and over the top.

[alguien]

I think by "fan service" you should mean "self-service" by GRRM. It's clear that he has some fetishes that he emphasizes on writing.

Meh. When it becomes as common as Robert Jordan's spanking in WoT, then I might concede that you have a point. However, two scenes amidst 8000 pages does not a fetish make.

[Leebo]

I agree, but this reinforces my opinion that they made a bad casting choice for Cersei. She sets the standard for "beauty legendary throughout the land" pretty low (again, IMO).

I see the point in this discussion, but I would add that Cersei's beauty is exactly that, legendary, and in a realm where very few of the people have actually seen her in real life, and given that she's the Queen and all, it's hardly surprising that her reputation is somewhat inflated. (Also, power is rather attractive, and she does happen to be the most powerful woman in the land).

That said, I don't fully remember how Martin described her, but I do agree that I was a little surprised by the casting choice for Cersei. The female casting choice that surprised me more was Cate Stark - I'm not so sure I see it, but I'll give the show a chance to win me over.