[BOOK SPOILERS] Nudity and Sexuality in HBO's GoT

[Wolfheart]

A friend remarked on twitter that she felt the ass shot was a little gratuitous in light of the preceding "boob shot" and how condensed the ploy already was.

I've no problems with the show having lots of nudity but would rather it be used to enhance the story rather than take up time that could otherwise be used for plot development.

That said, Emilia Clarke.... nyom!

I agree. I felt like HBO and DnD, chose to add more lengthly nudity for the sake of having it. I didn't mind it myself. But for how so far they have had to crunch plot line and cut out some scenes from the book. Adding what I consider lengthy ogling to naked bodies taking up to much time where critical plot line could have been added instead with just seconds.

They better not do this in the following seasons, as more plotline becomes critical. And I don't see the need to ogle naked bodies for far to many seconds where the books scenes become even more critical and harder decision to cut.

Lesson is HBO and David and Dan: LESS IS MORE. Nudity is fine. But watch how much time it takes up in the hour!

[Balefont]

I think a lot of it just stood out more because it's a lot easier to ignore nudity and sex when it's printed even non-graphically, compared to confronting the screen representation of it.

Exactly what I was thinking as well. I was thinking about all the brothel scenes in the book and how people are going to potentially complain and say they are gratuitous. I was trying to recall how George painted those scenes in the book and just because he sort of broadly brushes over the descriptions of the women working there, doesn't mean the place isn't filled with barely dressed women. Perhaps because he doesn't go into detail, as a reader, we don't really 'see them' in our minds eye; they are on the periphery rather than RIGHT IN OUR FACE.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Lesson is HBO and David and Dan: LESS IS MORE. Nudity is fine. But watch how much time it takes up in the hour!

This, I can agree with. I personally didn't have any problem with Dany's bathing scene or how much time it took, but if they dwell overmuch on sex or nudity that I didn't think was all that important, I would very much object.

Exactly what I was thinking as well. I was thinking about all the brothel scenes in the book and how people are going to potentially complain and say they are gratuitous. I was trying to recall how George painted those scenes in the book and just because he sort of broadly brushes over the descriptions of the women working there, doesn't mean the place isn't filled with barely dressed women. Perhaps because he doesn't go into detail, as a reader, we don't really 'see them' in our minds eye; they are on the periphery rather than RIGHT IN OUR FACE.

I think this is an excellent point. In comparison to a novel, it's a lot harder to ignore "live action" sex and nudity, even if it's in the background.

[Jack Sparrow]

Apples to oranges. HBO has put these things in for a reason and it's worked fairly well for them.

Yes, HBO's reputation hasn't been made based off quality programming, but nudity. That's why they were so well known for their original programming pre-'Sopranos'. I would add that 'Mad Men' is exactly the type of show that would be on HBO (the exec producer says they passed on it), and it almost certainly would've had nudity if HBO had decided to greenlight the show. Airing it on basic cable doesn't seem to have hurt its ratings.

Spartacus certainly got good ratings for doing basically nothing but T&A and gore.

What, like a million viewers an episode? I watched most of the season, and it wasn't because of the T&A that I could see all over the net, but because there was some decent intrigue to the story. In the age of the net, I have a hard time believing that many people will spend their time on a show that doesn't otherwise interest them just for a little nudity you can easily find online. I already saw that egotastic has put up the videos of naked Daenarys and the clip of Tyrion in the brothel.

It'll get some people but turn off others.

So, basically, it will have no effect.

Most likely, it'll enforce to many the stigma of fantasy being a boys club only thing and get said boys club to tune in. It'll help ratings but hurt critical acclaim.

I see, it will just do "bad things." And I've noticed the lack of critical acclaim for the show so far; oh, wait, the opposite of that.

I like nudity too, but I also like lightsabers. Both have a time and place in a story. Mostly, I don't like my favorite book series turning into something cheap and tawdry. It has fucking, and it has nudity, and that's awesome. It doesn't need to be porn.

The books are already tawdry. I'm amused that some people describe them as having "a rape per page." I doubt HBO will be able to dirty up the story enough to match.

Another reason this matters is that it affects the quality of the cast they can get to do roles, and it affects the budget (because many actors charge more per nude scene).

Yes, more "bad things." I've noticed the cast sucks so far; now I know why. If they really want some particular actor, like Bean or Dinklage, and that actor won't do nude scenes, then I guess they'll have a decision to make as to how much they want that actor as opposed to how much they want a particular nude scene. Somehow, I don't think it will be a problem. I mean, I know that there are plenty of more parts to be cast in future seasons, but they've already got a lot of major parts squared, and I don't know how many of the future parts would even have sex or nude scenes in the books (not that they couldn't add them). I mean, there are parts like Ygritte, but I don't think that they're looking for a name for that part.

[Kalbear]

Yes, HBO's reputation hasn't been made based off quality programming, but nudity. That's why they were so well known for their original programming pre-'Sopranos'.

Yes, they were known explicitly for doing things like Real Sex and whatnot. And that got great ratings for them. Dunno where you're going with that; it's not like Sopranos didn't have gratuitious nudity quite often.

What, like a million viewers an episode? I watched most of the season, and it wasn't because of the T&A that I could see all over the net, but because there was some decent intrigue to the story.

Meh. That's not what got it the press. Spartacus was all 'come for the boobs, stay for the plot'.

I see, it will just do "bad things." And I've noticed the lack of critical acclaim for the show so far; oh, wait, the opposite of that.

Yes, but the one knock has been...the nudity.

Again, it's probably not a big deal. But it could be. And more importantly, I don't see why it's needed to be. You don't need to focus on it. You don't need to really make it a big deal. It can be there without it being the central tenet of the show.

Yes, more "bad things." I've noticed the cast sucks so far; now I know why. If they really want some particular actor, like Bean or Dinklage, and that actor won't do nude scenes, then I guess they'll have a decision to make as to how much they want that actor as opposed to how much they want a particular nude scene. Somehow, I don't think it will be a problem. I mean, I know that there are plenty of more parts to be cast in future seasons, but they've already got a lot of major parts squared, and I don't know how many of the future parts would even have sex or nude scenes in the books (not that they couldn't add them). I mean, there are parts like Ygritte, but I don't think that they're looking for a name for that part.

Sigh. You asked how it causes problems; that's how.

For example, if you look at the casting recommendations for Ygritte - none of the women there would likely do the part. And that might be fine, good even, but it could also be a detriment. Personally, so far I think Emilia Clarke is frankly horrible as Dany; she has two expressions, almost no body language to speak of, and her thousand-yard stare bugs the shit out of me. I love the rest of the cast, but she worries me - and she worries me because I think they could have gotten a great actress to play Dany if not for the nudity requirements.

And hell, I want to like Dany. And from what I hear she does great later, so I'm hoping I'm wrong. Right now though, that one random expression of 'huh' isn't doing it for me.

I guess they're likely to go another route - which is cast name actors for the big roles, take out the nudity (Cersei/Jaime, Ned/Cat), and put in more random nudity elsewhere to make up for it.

[Xenophon]

I think this is an excellent point. In comparison to a novel, it's a lot harder to ignore "live action" sex and nudity, even if it's in the background.

Fortunately, HBO has shown some discretion in this regard. Catelyn and Ned being naked when Maester Luwin comes in was fine in the book; it would have been distracting in the show.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Maybe I just tend to get annoyed when the nudity is predominately associated with one gender.

Tyrion is in a whorehouse but is clothed. Sure, he probably has a clause about not doing full nudity, but they could easily have had him in a greater state of undress without going full frontal.

Dany gets stripped in front of us twice. I'm with Razorbeef on the excessively voyeuristic Dany issue, especially because they could have made the point about her lack of agency just as powerfully in other ways. I know we were supposed to feel creepy about the scene, but you can make people feel creepy in a way that doesn't allow millions of people to survey the tits and ass of a teenager. Plus, Dany gets stripped naked and bent over by Drogo, who is clothed (except, of course, for his barbarian warpainted chest, set off against his super-high waisted pants - which never come off).

Then there's the teenage boy scene, which as many people have noted, made no sense whatsoever and totally felt like it was inserted to even out the balance - gotta throw something in for the ladies, after all.

A whole handful of fully nude women, and only a few males with their shirts off. Not impressed.

[Jack Sparrow]

Yes, they were known explicitly for doing things like Real Sex and whatnot. And that got great ratings for them. Dunno where you're going with that;

My point was that HBO has built a reputation for critically acclaimed programming, and that has drawn people to their brand. Before that they were known for original programming like 'Tales From the Crypt', 'The Hitchhiker', and 'Dream On'. I'm pretty sure they all had nudity, but 'The Sopranos' was the show that became the record-setter for pay cable ratings.

it's not like Sopranos didn't have gratuitious nudity quite often.

Yes, I'm sure that's what caused it to bring in 10 million viewers. My point isn't that the show did or didn't have nudity, but that the nudity isn't what drew audiences.

Meh. That's not what got it the press. Spartacus was all 'come for the boobs, stay for the plot'.

Yes, but nobody's going to stay without the plot. You can see plenty of shows at night on Cinemax centered around sex/nudity.

Yes, but the one knock has been...the nudity.

Apparently HBO shouldn't require that in every show then, since they love critics and don't care about ratings.

Sigh. You asked how it causes problems; that's how.

I did? I thought I wrote that I wasn't convinced that nudity equals ratings.

For example, if you look at the casting recommendations for Ygritte - none of the women there would likely do the part. And that might be fine, good even, but it could also be a detriment. Personally, so far I think Emilia Clarke is frankly horrible as Dany

Eh, I like Emilia, and there are plenty of good actresses that will do nudity. As for Dany, they wanted a fairly young, probably British, actress who would commit to a show for numerous years, so it was going to limit the pool to likely being non-movie stars.

I guess they're likely to go another route - which is cast name actors for the big roles, take out the nudity (Cersei/Jaime, Ned/Cat), and put in more random nudity elsewhere to make up for it.

I don't know that Lena or Nikolaj have any problem getting naked; I wouldn't be surprised to see some skin from them at some point, but I couldn't say for sure.

[Ser Greguh]

Personally I'm completely astounded by the general consensus regarding viewing Daenerys's opening nude scene as gratuitous. I thought it was absolutely essential myself. Daenerys is a complete blank slate, she is utterly vulnerable, she's utterly powerless, she is entrapped in a completely subservient role to an elder brother that is emotionally, physically, and sexually abusive. It was about as far from a "random nude scene" as I've ever seen.

[fitheach]

The Daenerys bath scene was small potatoes compared to the Atia of the Julii bath scene in the premiere of Rome. That characer turned out sufficiently complex for my tastes.

Yeah, the Atia scene was full frontal (and full backside I think)- and later in the series they have a full frontal with Antony while he's getting scraped/cleaned (burned into my memory). Something about those full frontals in Rome seemed more organic to the story, showing how Romans were with nudity. With Dany, I would've preferred a close up of her frozen face and a single tear as she walks into the bath- than the long ass shot (that was just a tad too long). What I think viewers have noticed is that it just didn't seem organic, too long, too much with her boobs, then the long pan down her naked backside, then her naked front side... Too much, we get it, she's venerable... I also think what bothers some is that there were alot of young hot bodies nekkid- but no older (Ned and Cat) bodies. If HBO is going Au Naturale, why only young and why not the full monte? Also, the scene where Robb, Jon, and Theon are getting shaved was a bit off... I am perfectly happy to see young guys with their shirts off :leer:, but that scene seems to be put in only to cover why Jon has long hair in the earlier scenes and short hair later (because of the whole re-shoot of pilot). Basically, I believe some of the choices made in the pilot are because of this re-shoot, and probably why I thought the episode had a choppy feel. On the whole though, I really like the episode!

Edit: Mostly I didn't like how the Dothraki woman danced at the wedding (not that their boobies were showing), the chirography suuuucked!!

[winterfellsheir]

Correct me if I am wrong, in the episode Viserys says he is 17 years old. Dany would then be younger say 14/15. I get that in the book these characters are doing things at a younger age then our society rules. That being said am I the only one that has a problem with showing what should be a 14/15 year old girl naked. Isn't this tantamount to child pornography. Yea I get that the actress is older than Dany is, but Dany is supposed to be just a teenager. I found this quite disturbing that while this would be considered taboo and wrong for grown men to view and watch 9th grade girls in our society, it is ok cause it is exists in this fictional world. I felt this crossed the line and sends not only a mixed message but the wrong one. Why should it be okay if the actress is older than 18, the fact that the character isn't makes this wrong? As a parent of teenage daughters I couldn't justify this in anyway.

[peterbound]

For all you prudes out there:

http://io9.com/#!5793737/which-hbo-pilot-has-more-nudity-true-blood-or-game-of-thrones

Someone did the math for you. Be sure and write your congressman about all the terrible things that are going on out there in hollywoodland.

[fitheach]

For all you prudes out there:

http://io9.com/#!5793737/which-hbo-pilot-has-more-nudity-true-blood-or-game-of-thrones

Someone did the math for you. Be sure and write your congressman about all the terrible things that are going on out there in hollywoodland.

I don't think anyone really had a problem with the nudity, just how it was done. :dunno:

[SergioCQH]

It's odd for fans of the books to complain about the gender imbalance with regards to nudity in the TV series. It's just being faithful to the books, which have long been noted for their identical imbalance.

[So1ar]

call me old fashion but the amount of nudity seemed way over the top to me. however, this is the first hbo series i've seen so maybe it's on par for the rest of their shows. i really don't understand how it adds to a scene to have some womens tits hanging out on display in the background. i bet i saw 17 boobs.

in emilie clarke's interviews she talked about how classy hbo does nudity so she wasn't concerned with it. slowly zooming in on her ass didn't really reek class to me. or being naked for half the time she was on screen.

also, i wasn't a big fan of the whorehouse scene with tyrion. not necessarily that he was in a whorehouse, but the timing of it. did it seem out of character to anyone else that tyrion would just blow off the introduction to the entire stark family? think about in SoS when tyrion is waiting on the hill with pod and bron to greet the dornishmen when they arrived at kings landing. do you think tyrion would have just blown that off to go to some whorehouse? of course not, so why would he blow off the stark family? it seems like a pretty big insult to me.

i can handle nudity but it really annoys me when it adds nothing to the scene and the amount that was shown seemed to undermine the seriousness of the show. but hey, call me old fashioned.

[fitheach]

It's odd for fans of the books to complain about the gender imbalance with regards to nudity in the TV series. It's just being faithful to the books, which have long been noted for their identical imbalance.

I'm sure there was more male nudity in the books.. Did Tyrion stay clothed for sex? I don't recall. I thought Jaime was naked with Cersei in the tower (in the novel). I think there's more of an imbalance with the gay sex (Lesbian, no Homosexual) than female to male nudity- from what I recall. Mostly though, I don't want nudity thrown in unless it works with the character and the scene. For example, I think throwing in a scene seeing a bunch of nude guys washing at Castle Black would be silly- since it's friggen' cold there.

I like seeing naked people BTW, but not when it doesn't push the story or seems thrown in.

[Jack Sparrow]

Some of you people make it seem like you have to meet some ridiculous laundry list of criteria in order for a character to be nude. It reminds me of the paperwork required to get a title IX wiretape in 'The Wire'.

ASA Pearlman: "In order for a character to get naked, you must prove exhaustion."

Herc: "I'm exhausted just listening to this shit."

[peterbound]

call me old fashion but the amount of nudity seemed way over the top to me. however, this is the first hbo series i've seen so maybe it's on par for the rest of their shows. i really don't understand how it adds to a scene to have some womens tits hanging out on display in the background. i bet i saw 17 boobs.

in emilie clarke's interviews she talked about how classy hbo does nudity so she wasn't concerned with it. slowly zooming in on her ass didn't really reek class to me. or being naked for half the time she was on screen.

also, i wasn't a big fan of the whorehouse scene with tyrion. not necessarily that he was in a whorehouse, but the timing of it. did it seem out of character to anyone else that tyrion would just blow off the introduction to the entire stark family? think about in SoS when tyrion is waiting on the hill with pod and bron to greet the dornishmen when they arrived at kings landing. do you think tyrion would have just blown that off to go to some whorehouse? of course not, so why would he blow off the stark family? it seems like a pretty big insult to me.

i can handle nudity but it really annoys me when it adds nothing to the scene and the amount that was shown seemed to undermine the seriousness of the show. but hey, call me old fashioned.

Actually, per my linked stats, you saw 8.

And you are old fashioned.

eta: This whole 'non miscellaneous' side of the house is a different beast altogether. Waaaayyy more serious up here. You guys should dive into the general chatter/politics thread. Some of the conservatives down there could use your help.

[Keegan]

What the excessive nudity did is KEEP me from recommending it to alot of friends and co-workers. It has narrowed the viewership. It will turn out to be mocked for the nudity in years to come, and the story will be an after thought. What a shame, too late now, though. The preview for episode two has the dany lesbian seen, and I can bet we will get minutes of nudity and SECONDS of story of why she wants to please her raper.

It is like watching middle school kids writing the story and every chance they get showing boobs....and giggling.

[lynxx]

Replying to both Reiver and Tempra:

"If Dany is objectified during the bath scene, isn't that kind of the point? Vis views his sister as an object that he can trade to get back his Kingdom. I think whether Dany is objectified is open to interpretation, but if we assume she is, I think there is a legitimate artistic reason for doing so.

I don't think that the creators were gratuitous in their use of nudity. In fact, the evidence seems to point otherwise...There's a calculatedness to it that makes it seem so contrived and cynical. The carefully revealed breasts and buttocks of Dany but avoiding the pubic area makes it seem unnatural... Her vulnerability and helplessness would be better served by a wide shot of her fully naked and not looking in control rather than sexualising her."

I was uncomfortable with the TV Dany scenes (something I did not find odd in the novel), and I believe it was a deliberate choice by the scriptwriters. It certainly emphasized her shaky situation: No one to stick up for her at all. Her brother treats her like meat or chattel, and she can expect nothing different from her grim horselord husband. Despite her passive "deer in the headlights" look, she did find enough sense of self to say tremulously "I want to go home". This will be even stronger contrast to later scenes when she learns to speak up for herself.