[BOOK SPOILERS] Nudity and Sexuality in HBO's GoT

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Right. And apparently the only way to show Dany's vulnerability was to loving focus on her nipple and then to have a good look at her ass.

I think everyone here agrees that Dany needed to be vulnerable and helpless and objectified. But the way that they did it was unnecessary.

[Jack Sparrow]

I think everyone here agrees that Dany needed to be vulnerable and helpless and objectified. But that the way that they did it was unnecessary.

It seems like people will never understand this, but very little is necessary in fiction. Creative works are molded by many choices; they could go in a hundred different directions with just about anything. Saying something wasn't necessary is about as informative as saying the sky is blue. One could point to any of a thousand different details and complain it was unnecessary, but why is the person complaining in the first place? Everybody's born naked, and they only learn later that there's something wrong with it.

[peterbound]

What the excessive nudity did is KEEP me from recommending it to alot of friends and co-workers. It has narrowed the viewership. It will turn out to be mocked for the nudity in years to come, and the story will be an after thought. What a shame, too late now, though. The preview for episode two has the dany lesbian seen, and I can bet we will get minutes of nudity and SECONDS of story of why she wants to please her raper.

It is like watching middle school kids writing the story and every chance they get showing boobs....and giggling.

Please.

You know for a fact there is going to be nudity, sex, incest, whores, gay love, and dragons in this shit coming into it. At this point we are just arguing how they handle it. Not recommending it to your friends (who sound like a barrel full of laughs) based on what you saw in the first episode is foolish. As stated above, you knew the shit was going to be there. Did you think they were going to edit it out?

And i highly doubt the show will be mocked for it's nudity in years to come. Rome wasn't, nor has True Blood been. For fuck sakes, the Sopranos had Tony fucking a one legged foreigner. None of those shows, none of them will go down in the annuls of time as being foolish for showing that side of world. Nor will AGOT.

[lynxx]

...apparently the only way to show Dany's vulnerability was to loving focus on her nipple and then to have a good look at her ass...Dany needed to be vulnerable and helpless and objectified. But the way that they did it was unnecessary.

At least we agree on HBO's intent, LugaJet. But I would not describe the way that they did it as "unnecessary", but more precisely "creative". Sure, they could have made other choices, but they went for shock value, just like Ned swinging Ice earlier.

[NW Deserter]

The only thing I didn't like regarding HBO's choices for sex and nudity was that every male who had sex kept his pants securely on. I think someone brought this up earlier, but the Dothraki were killing each other over who got to dry-hump the ladies.

Really?!

It just made that whole scene stupidly cheesy. If HBO doesn't want to show a penis, then just frame the shot so you don't see anything, and then upon disengagement, have them pull their pants up. But to have everyone dry-humping just looked dumb

[Tyrion Lannister]

What the excessive nudity did is KEEP me from recommending it to alot of friends and co-workers. It has narrowed the viewership. It will turn out to be mocked for the nudity in years to come, and the story will be an after thought. What a shame, too late now, though. The preview for episode two has the dany lesbian seen, and I can bet we will get minutes of nudity and SECONDS of story of why she wants to please her raper.

It is like watching middle school kids writing the story and every chance they get showing boobs....and giggling.

At least you aren't overreacting or anything.

I would like to borrow your crystal ball, though.

[AquariumDrinker]

also, i wasn't a big fan of the whorehouse scene with tyrion. not necessarily that he was in a whorehouse, but the timing of it. did it seem out of character to anyone else that tyrion would just blow off the introduction to the entire stark family? think about in SoS when tyrion is waiting on the hill with pod and bron to greet the dornishmen when they arrived at kings landing. do you think tyrion would have just blown that off to go to some whorehouse? of course not, so why would he blow off the stark family? it seems like a pretty big insult to me.

Refresh my memory.... wasn't Tyrion a jobless bum in the books during the visit to Winterfell and the Master of Coin tasked by his father to greet the Dornish host in the 3rd book? I think you just pointed out an excellent way for the producers to show character growth by filming it exactly how they filmed it.

[Dragon of Valyria]

Right. And apparently the only way to show Dany's vulnerability was to loving focus on her nipple and then to have a good look at her ass.

I think everyone here agrees that Dany needed to be vulnerable and helpless and objectified. But the way that they did it was unnecessary.

Yeah. I don't mind the rest of the nudity--that's atmosphere, whatever. It's a mature show, and disliking it on the basis of some nudity is odd considering what expectations the novels themselves give. The rape scene, even, makes narrative sense.

Viserys and Dany just seemed exploitative, though. I cringed when I saw it: I thought "of course, her first scene and she's already naked." This was underscored by when my friends later told me how they thought Dany was sexy. I think: really, guys, really? Well, mission accomplished, I suppose.

It's the pilot and I think they'll get over it, just as Rome got most of its gratuity out of the way in the first few episodes, but it's still annoying given that Dany will be naked plenty as it is during the course of the story. By framing the first shot as "sexy"--oh look, here's a nipple close up!--they're going to undermine the rest of it.

When it comes to it, I shudder to think what they'll do with Qarth. It should... just be casual, relaxed. By sexualizing her so much, I doubt it will be.

[Kalbear]

Correct me if I am wrong, in the episode Viserys says he is 17 years old.

You're wrong. he says that he's waited 17 years for this, which is how long it's been since he fled Westeros. That makes Dany almost precisely 17 years old, since the queen was carrying her when they left. Or at least that's what it was in the books (the story, not the age).

In theory, assuming nothing else has changed Viserys is 23, Dany 17.

And i highly doubt the show will be mocked for it's nudity in years to come. Rome wasn't, nor has True Blood been.

Lots and lots of folks mock Rome for the excessive nudity. True Blood has been called 'vampire porn' and had three naked people on the cover of TV Guide to 'celebrate' it. It's pretty mockable. it's not quite Spartacus levels but it's up there.

[gabal]

Though HBO has its own limits, and those just make me scratch my head. Am I supposed to imagine that these passionate screams are people engaged in actual sex, despite the excruciatingly obvious pants? Or do people just really especially like bouncing around in that position with clothes on on HBO, particularly in situations described in the novel as sex?

I think they had so much clothes on because of two things:

1,.presence of a minor in the scene

2. Lena Headey was pregnant at the time that particular scene was being filmed. I know she mentioned they had to use the double for sex scenes but I guess in the end they decided against it.

[So1ar]

Refresh my memory.... wasn't Tyrion a jobless bum in the books during the visit to Winterfell and the Master of Coin tasked by his father to greet the Dornish host in the 3rd book? I think you just pointed out an excellent way for the producers to show character growth by filming it exactly how they filmed it.

oh tywin had tyrion greet them? i don't remember. i thought tyrion greeted the starks in the book. therefore, it seemed weird to me that he didn't even show up for the introduction in the tv show. maybe i'm wrong on that as well.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I think they had so much clothes on because of two things:

1,.presence of a minor in the scene

2. Lena Headey was pregnant at the time that particular scene was being filmed. I know she mentioned they had to use the double for sex scenes but I guess in the end they decided against it.

I geuss they could have shot Cersei and Jaime porking and then the parts with Bran separately. since when we see them fucking bran is not in the picture and i don't think we see anything afterward.

[Kalbear]

Note that the Dothraki are all wearing pants while fucking at the wedding, Drogo's wearing pants as he takes Dany, and even Tyrion's wearing stuff that covers him pretty well.

The dryhumping was pretty stupid. Bare asses couldn't be done? really?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I'm glad i'm not the only one who noticed their pants were on.

[gabal]

I geuss they could have shot Cersei and Jaime porking and then the parts with Bran separately. since when we see them fucking bran is not in the picture and i don't think we see anything afterward.

Well, it would be a bit odd if Jamie was to stop the love-making, put on the clothes and then rush towards the window so he could be dressed in the scene with Bran.

I have a benefit of seeing second episode as well and I think there is less sex scenes there and yes, Drogo does remove his pants for it.

Bigger departure from the books is the way marriage was consummated but I felt it worked better in the context of first two episodes that way, bathing scene was pretty much faithfully carried over from the books (didn't Viserys pinch her nipple there though?)

[tuthmoses]

i guess some people think its fine to read about sex but are surprised when they see it shown on screen, perhaps they would prefer if HBO just cut out the gritty sex scenes and brutal violence of GRRM's books and turned the Game of Thrones tv series into something akin to Harry Potter :eyeroll:

btw does anybody else think its hilarious that we have altar boys and the like complaining about a bit of boob and not mentioning multiple beheadings and body parts strewn all over the place lol ... I say congrats to HBO the series is spot on so far and keep up the good work - if a few people weren't a little shocked at the realism and brutal honesty of GRRM's creation something would be wrong.

[Herr Fick]

Regarding sexuality in the pilot, there was one particular scene which I found terribly uninspired: After we were shown several markedly rough a tergo couplings during (those looked tacky) and after (that one was appropriately disconcerting) the Dothraki wedding feast, the pivotal scene with Cersei and Jaime in the tower was an abysmal failure.

The scene Bran observed should have been much more intimate. Nothing against sex a tergo - by God! - but their passion as depicted was barely lukewarm and utterly generic. Because of contractual issues we can't even see Lena Headey's face at first (instead, we see part of a stand-in's butt), and both characters are fully clothed. Are you kidding me? The scene had not a shred of eroticism. Which is very unfortunate for two reasons:

Firstly, there are almost no consensual and sincerely loving sexual encounters depicted in the novels*, instead, most sex is equivalent to rape, slavery, prostitution or coercion. Since neither of those should be depicted as 'okay' or particularly erotic, that leaves very few potentially erotic love scenes. One of them** is the encounter Bran happens to observe. To see such a boring mess made out of it baffled me.

Secondly, the introduction to Cersei and Jaime's relationship could have been much more interesting, as well as memorable and (It's HBO!) 'edgy' if it had shown that they are totally devoted to each other. A more playful, intimate and naked (!) scene (like it happens in the novel) would have worked much better in my opinion.

* The exceptions are Ygritte and Jon, Gilly and Sam, Catelyn and Eddard (which is only alluded to) and, of course, Cersei and Jaime (I might forget a few, but the proportions are clear).

**: And apart from the scene between Catelyn and Eddard the only (!) one in A Game of Thrones.

I think they [Lena Headey and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau] had so much clothes on because of two things:

1,.presence of a minor in the scene

2. Lena Headey was pregnant at the time that particular scene was being filmed. I know she mentioned they had to use the double for sex scenes but I guess in the end they decided against it.

You are correct at least regarding Lena Headey's pregnancy. But I still think that the scene delivers nothing of the true love and passion between Cersei and Jaime - it's just boring.

[broken one]

Initially I had decided not to watch the series but as HBO was decoded I could not help myself... (+ I hoped it would help me make my wife read the books). During the first 30 minutes I was comparing the episode with the book and got irritated. When I stopped comparing it bored me a big time. To the point:

...the pivotal scene with Cersei and Jaime in the tower was an abysmal failure...

...the introduction to Cersei and Jaime's relationship could have been much more interesting, as well as memorable and (It's HBO!) 'edgy' if it had shown that they are totally devoted to each other. A more playful, intimate and naked (!) scene (like it happens in the novel) would have worked much better in my opinion.

I absolutely second that.

I have nothing against nudity, but most of it in the episode seemed not necessary.

[reiver]

i guess some people think its fine to read about sex but are surprised when they see it shown on screen, perhaps they would prefer if HBO just cut out the gritty sex scenes and brutal violence of GRRM's books and turned the Game of Thrones tv series into something akin to Harry Potter :eyeroll:

btw does anybody else think its hilarious that we have altar boys and the like complaining about a bit of boob and not mentioning multiple beheadings and body parts strewn all over the place lol ... I say congrats to HBO the series is spot on so far and keep up the good work - if a few people weren't a little shocked at the realism and brutal honesty of GRRM's creation something would be wrong.

You've ignored my and several other people's nuanced arguments against the way the show handles nudity to instead start tilting at puritanical windmills and imagined hypocrisy. Please have a read of what has been said as i get the impression you made your mind up about people's motivations without really reading them.

No-one here is "shocked" by the grittiness or realism but by its absence. The majority of the arguments are about the lack of it in those scenes which feel more as if they play to titillate than world build. Which is more gritty? Dwarf cock, saggy lady boobs (and men boobs) and grey pubes or soft-lit rumps, giant perfect breasts and dry humping? As someone else said I doubt we'll be seeing Dany's ass covered in saddle sores in the next episode.

It's not an argument against nudity, which everyone knew was coming, but it does not feel true to the books handling or the adult tone they're trying to set for the show. I had been going to recommend this show to my parents and others but the way they dealt with nudity and sexuality put me off doing so. That i was quite happy to recommend the wire, deadwood and even Rome should show that i'm far from a prude nor a body hating conservative and neither are my parents and friends. It's just that i know they'll think it's puerile and with fantasy being a hard enough genre to sell to the uninitiated at the best of times my arguments of "this is different" are going to be put back by this.

Well, it would be a bit odd if Jamie was to stop the love-making, put on the clothes and then rush towards the window so he could be dressed in the scene with Bran.

They could have shot him from the waist up in all scenes involving Bran (as they pretty much did) avoiding the need for nudity in proximity to the child but retaining it in scene.

I felt that the setting they chose (abandoned dusty and dirty tower) made them being clothed more logical but i agree they lost the tenderness of the lovemaking in favour of a more animal act. I'm on the fence about this one at the moment.

[AquariumDrinker]

I felt that the setting they chose (abandoned dusty and dirty tower) made them being clothed more logical but i agree they lost the tenderness of the lovemaking in favour of a more animal act. I'm on the fence about this one at the moment.

A lack of tenderness in lovemaking does not mean a lack of caring or love, it mean you are doing it right.