[BOOK SPOILERS] Nudity and Sexuality in HBO's GoT

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Yeah, I agree. Also, like I said earlier, the whores were just too hot. My measuring stick is Cersei - you shouldn't be able to find a whore better looking than Cersei outside of Alayaya's. In the book, there was a pretty clear hierarchy of who is more attractive than whom, and whose beauty is legendary throughout the land (one guard quips to another: "and I want Cersei Lannister to suck my cock, but we can't have everything we want"). Random knockout whores in a brothel at the ass end of nowhere (and look at the inside of that brothel - it is not a nice one) throw that scale all out of whack.

I always thought that quote was meant to express distaste and a desire to degrade the rich and powerful (yet, hated) Queen of Westeros, not from any overt attraction to her seeing as it came from a member of an outlaw group who actively opposed the Lannisters.

[Xenophon]

This TV show (and GRRM's writings, for that matter) isn't designed for the easily offended.

I must say I'm a bit surprised that some of the folks in this thread managed to finish reading the books without tossing them aside in disgust.

True, but as a couple people mentioned above, things that are fine on the page can become pretty creepy on screen. i.e. Ned and Catelyn naked post-coitus works fine in the book to show they are a healthy married couple; on screen, it would have been distracting and voyeuristic.

I think hair and makeup are quite enough to show which women have the time and money to take care of themselves. I mentioned earlier that I thought Rome was an example of a show that did this well. Attia was much more desirable than Titus Pullo's various whores, and I think this was mainly accomplished with hair and makeup.

Very true. With some zits and greasy hair, Tyrion's whore scene would have felt entirely different.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

True, but as a couple people mentioned above, things that are fine on the page can become pretty creepy on screen. i.e. Ned and Catelyn naked post-coitus works fine in the book to show they are a healthy married couple; on screen, it would have been distracting and voyeuristic.

That's a good point. Visualizing a scene internally can be a very different experience from seeing it portrayed externally...

[neutronicus]

I always thought that quote was meant to express distaste and a desire to degrade the rich and powerful (yet, hated) Queen of Westeros, not from any overt attraction to her seeing as it came from a member of an outlaw group who actively opposed the Lannisters.

To be honest, I forgot that line came from the Brotherhood Without Banners. Your interpretation seems more reasonable.

[Son of Thunder]

I agree with the many others who thought HBO did it this way so that Cersei's face could initially be hidden (or maybe the preggers thing).

From the book:

Bran could not tell who they were. The man’s back was to him, and his body screened the woman from view as he pushed her up against a wall.

How hard would that have been to shoot?

[Son of Thunder]

This TV show (and GRRM's writings, for that matter) isn't designed for the easily offended.

I must say I'm a bit surprised that some of the folks in this thread managed to finish reading the books without tossing them aside in disgust.

This has been repeatedly addressed by multiple posters. I'm not sure how many more times this needs to be said before it sinks in:

It's not about what is being portrayed. It's about HOW it's being portrayed.

[Kalbear]

On Cersei/Lena Headey - she's not what I pictured as Cersei either. Lena Headey is definitely beautiful, but her beauty is one that she can turn on or off. Sometimes she's gorgeous. Sometimes she's clearly very...not. And that's her control.

The Cersei I pictured was going to be beautiful in a way that was never 'off'. She would exude sex and hotness.

I like this Cersei better, honestly. I like that she can be charming and sweet and actually mean it. I like that she can make a person feel like she's the most beautiful person around and then take that away sometimes too. But it's definitely not the Cersei of the book, and I can see folks having an issue with that.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I didn't even know it was a competition, but GoT wins!

[Xenophon]

I didn't even know it was a competition, but GoT wins!

And that right there explains the existence of this thread.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

True, but as a couple people mentioned above, things that are fine on the page can become pretty creepy on screen. i.e. Ned and Catelyn naked post-coitus works fine in the book to show they are a healthy married couple; on screen, it would have been distracting and voyeuristic.

Maybe I'm confused by your post, but doesn't this further show that there was a bias in the directing choices when it came to the nudity/sexuality? For some reason naked 'old people' in books are fine, but naked 'old people' on TV might hurt our eyes? If they were naked in the book, and the show is trying to stay true to the realistic spirit of the books, why aren't they naked on the screen? How is the distracting voyeuristic-ness of naked adults not okay, but the distracting voyeuristic-ness of naked young women repeatedly surrounded by clothed men is fine?

I'm not sure I understand the hostility that has developed upthread towards this criticism. I really liked the show and I support D & D entirely. But I don't like sexism. Honestly, my two biggest beefs about the whole thing are 1) they replaced the more character-appropriate vicious nipple-twisting of Viserys with nipple-caressing close ups, and 2) there weren't any naked men or people over the age of 25/30yrs.

I think the True Blood premiere is a good comparison. There was mad nudity in that show. Lots of naked women. But also lots of naked men, doing their thing. We saw Jason Stackhouse (and really, when do we not see Jason Stackhouse naked?) and we even got to see the creepy tattoed bald vampire dude going at it (to a chained woman!). And it was fine. The naked female body was not priviledged in any way. But the nudity in the GoT pilot - a conscious decision on the part of someone at HBO - actually went out of its way to only apply to young women.

I'm 100% confident that the discrepency will disappear in later episodes (I sure hope it does, at least). But I can't believe people are trying to pretend that it doesn't exist in the first episode.

Edit: You go on with your bad self, Son of Thunder! Welcome to the board! :cheers:

[Balefont]

On Cersei/Lena Headey - she's not what I pictured as Cersei either. Lena Headey is definitely beautiful, but her beauty is one that she can turn on or off. Sometimes she's gorgeous. Sometimes she's clearly very...not. And that's her control.

The Cersei I pictured was going to be beautiful in a way that was never 'off'. She would exude sex and hotness.

I like this Cersei better, honestly. I like that she can be charming and sweet and actually mean it. I like that she can make a person feel like she's the most beautiful person around and then take that away sometimes too. But it's definitely not the Cersei of the book, and I can see folks having an issue with that.

Thanks for saying this, kal. I totally agree.

[Kat]

I'm not sure I understand the hostility that has developed upthread towards this criticism. I really liked the show and I support D & D entirely. But I don't like sexism. Honestly, my two biggest beefs about the whole thing are 1) they replaced the more character-appropriate vicious nipple-twisting of Viserys with nipple-caressing close ups, and 2) there weren't any naked men or people over the age of 25/30yrs.

I agree with point (2) although from what I've heard, some of this will be remedied in future episodes-- and I look forward to some gratuitous male nudity and sexxxors. Renly/Loras anyone? :leer:

With point (1), though....I dunno. I found Viserys merely touching Dany's breast to be incredibly creepy just in the way she didn't seem to be able to do anything about it. I'm wondering if there's a line HBO has somewhere with what they're willing to show, like touching, yes, nipple-twisting and other things bordering on 'active' pr0n, no, because that's the reason I thought they took that out. I dunno, where do you draw the line on what's "obviously creepy" sibling abuse (nipple-twisting) vs. "fan service" sibling abuse (nipple touching)? I find them pretty much equivalent in creepy wrongness.

[Xenophon]

Maybe I'm confused by your post, but doesn't this further show that there was a bias in the directing choices when it came to the nudity/sexuality? For some reason naked 'old people' in books are fine, but naked 'old people' on TV might hurt our eyes? If they were naked in the book, and the show is trying to stay true to the realistic spirit of the books, why aren't they naked on the screen? How is the distracting voyeuristic-ness of naked adults not okay, but the distracting voyeuristic-ness of naked young women repeatedly surrounded by clothed men is fine?

Yeah, I agree with that in general. I think it was ridiculous that Tyrion wasn't naked in the whorehouse. And, given the amount of time they've already devoted to Dany's ass, I think it would be visually powerful to show her taking a bath again after she's gotten saddle-sores, so we can really see how agonizing the transition to becoming a Dothraki princess is for her.

But I do think it would have been distracting to have Ned and Catelyn in the scene with Maester Luwin, so I'm glad they left it out. It might be realistic/true to the book, but nudity is just such an attention-grabber that it would have our focus off of Ned's choice, which really was the most important part of that scene.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Yeah, I agree with that in general. I think it was ridiculous that Tyrion wasn't naked in the whorehouse.

There's this small problem with actors and what they will and will not do on camera.

If Dinklage (or anyone else) had a "no nudity" clause, that's about it.

What're they going to do? Recast Wee-Man as Tyrion Lannister? Please.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

TBH, Luga, I find this quite often. (I'm sure you do too.) Whether it's commentary on possible (even if inadvertent) racism, sexism, heterocentrism, whatever, there sometimes seems to be this backlash of "I didn't have a problem with it, so your criticism is irrelevant. Here, let me reduce your comments to something trivial."

Especially something as anticipated as this, it seems to become very easy to fall back on "But it's awesome to see this happening (finally), how dare you not like it 100%!" and that's even before touching these more serious issues. I, personally, find .. I don't want to say "plenty", but a number of issues worth discussing/criticising in the books on these topics, and the 'simplified' version on-screen just exacerbates most of them. I really don't like that they're being dismissed out of hand, often by people not directly affected by said issue. (For example, I'd never tell Son of Thunder's friend that they're wrong because I "don't see racism in it"*, and I'd be (am) pissed at men who tell me I must be wrong because they don't see any sexism in there. I'll disagree with women who tell me the same thing, but it's coming from a different point, societally.)

*As mentioned, I can see it, so this is just hypothetical.

[Ran]

They're all covered up when Ned makes his choice. The nudity is relatively brief. It's actually a little bit of a shame, as again, it characterizes Catelyn: she's pragmatic, she has no false modesty. Catelyn keeps having these little details trimmed away. (But, I should add, a little bit of a shame is hardly outweighing any other things that may have been factors, including questions of the willingness/comfort of the actors, what played best, etc.)

[LugaJetboyGirl]

I agree with point (2) although from what I've heard, some of this will be remedied in future episodes-- and I look forward to some gratuitous male nudity and sexxxors. Renly/Loras anyone? :leer:

With point (1), though....I dunno. I found Viserys merely touching Dany's breast to be incredibly creepy just in the way she didn't seem to be able to do anything about it. I'm wondering if there's a line HBO has somewhere with what they're willing to show, like touching, yes, nipple-twisting and other things bordering on 'active' pr0n, no, because that's the reason I thought they took that out. I dunno, where do you draw the line on what's "obviously creepy" sibling abuse (nipple-twisting) vs. "fan service" sibling abuse (nipple touching)? I find them pretty much equivalent in creepy wrongness.

Me, too. I'm hoping the Renly/Loras duo gives Lafayette and Jesus a run for their money.

And I agree with you about the creepy factor. I was trying really hard not to squirm in my seat when that Viserys business was going on. I have heard from others that they thought it implied that he and Dany had an incestuous relationship or that he lusted after her. I never got that from the books; rather, it seemed to me that Viserys was using whatever means he could to make Dany feel like a total worthless piece of shit. So I guess I felt that - given the confusion non-book readers had - what we saw as intensely creepy could have been (and apparently was) considered erotic by others. If the Twisting had happened (it was the most memorable part of the scene for me), I imagine both men and women would have reacted with a very strong internal 'OW! Daaamn, what an asshole.' A much smaller portion of the population would have found it sexually exciting, if that makes any sense.

But yes, seriously, creep city.

And Xenophon, I totally understand your point. Although, hell, they could have been wearing bath robes :) If there'd been skin there, GoT would have even more soundly demolished True Blood in the Nekkid Contest! But the Ned/Cat scene, when taken together with all the other bits, for me at least, just emphasizes how careful they were to restrict nudity to 'appropriate places.' Even if it may have been the right decision at that narrative moment.

[Xenophon]

There's this small problem with actors and what they will and will not do on camera.

If Dinklage (or anyone else) had a "no nudity" clause, that's about it.

What're they going to do? Recast Wee-Man as Tyrion Lannister? Please.

Obviously. And if it were only that one scene, then I probably wouldn't even have noticed. But in the context of a whole episode filled with attractive naked women, where no man ever removed his pants and no ugly person ever got naked, it's indicative of a bigger problem.

[Xenophon]

They're all covered up when Ned makes his choice. The nudity is relatively brief. It's actually a little bit of a shame, as again, it characterizes Catelyn: she's pragmatic, she has no false modesty. Catelyn keeps having these little details trimmed away.

Oh, that is a shame then. I was misremembering the scene.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Sigh. I wish that not everything was a call to activism.