So was Lyanna stupid or something?

[Dragonfish]

But why would she recant when Rhaegar controlls all the information she gets about everything? It really wouldn't be hard for Rhaegar to hide the cost of their decision from Lyanna, the Kings Guard are ordered to protect her, but that could also mean protect her from inconvenient facts can't it?

I think he's arguing that she may have recanted before Rhaegar absconded with her.

However, I can't say I'm particularly fond of this scenario. I much prefer the idea that Lyanna went willingly, as it seems more tragic to me.

[Luin]

As do I, and it is a lot more original to, even though either scenario could be considered original or emulation.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

She was fifteen. Even if she was retarded, I don't see how she could force Rhaegar to 'kidnap' her if he didn't want to. So, they are in this together. Hope that GRRM has a very good reason for it. "Madly in love" doesn't count for a good reason and will probably take them both to the top of the "most stupid character" chart. Most stupid and egoistic character.

All those high school kids being forced to read Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet might not agree with you on who are the most stupid characters ever, by your reasoning. Obviously,, there must be some universal appeal in the hopeless mad love of youth. Universal appeal...and universal truth.

[Restless]

I've admitted that Rhaegar was partly responsible for the rebellion. I've never intended to argue otherwise.

:cheers:

[SFDanny]

I think there's a possible scenario that lies somewhere in between a) Lyanna & Rhaegar were in love and B) Kidnapping/rape.

Based on the fact that Lyanna was somewhat impulsive, and from what we know of the story, it's safe to say she was at least attracted to Rhaegar. At her young age, she probably wouldn't think a lot about the repurcussions to her family or Rhaegar's. So, let's say they did get together, and maybe even run off togother/have a fling. Maybe, Lyanna just wanted to have an affair to get back at Robert, or maybe like many young girls, she was fixated on the 'rock star' and would've willingly been with him even if for just a night? Now, whether one night or a short or longer fling (that maybe her brothers even know about) - what happens if she finds out she's pregnant, but wants to go back to Winterfell/not be around Rhaegar (maybe she can't marry him & there's a lover's spat, or the lustful relationship has cooled). However, Rhaegar decides he must have the child (due to the prophecy, or other reasons - he is royalty, and likely has a sense of entitlement - I certainly read Dany that way, and all of GRRM's characters have flaws). So, maybe, though there was no initial rape, there could well have been captivity/imprisonment of Lyanna.

If true, how do we explain the fact Ned finds Lyanna dying, while holding on to flowers that sound very suspiciously like the flowers Rhaegar gave her at the tourney at Harrenhal? Doesn't sound like a case of recanting, or growing out of love with Rhaegar.

I don't necessarily think this is what happened - though I kind of hope it is. For me, it helps explain the whole gap of informing her family & Brandon storming off. Also better explains the disposition of the Kingsguard at this time - which never made sense to me (3 of 7 with Lyanna, as opposed to King's Landing with Aerys, Elia, and Aegon)? Not all affairs that start out passionate end well. GRRM has touched on many real life characteristics/situations - why not that one?

As I've said a few times here, we don't know there is a "gap of informing her family." We know Lyanna has questions about marrying Robert that she talks to Ned about. We know the brothers are present when the events at the tourney take place - which may have been where a love affair is sparked between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Why is it that so many jump to the conclusion that Lyanna hides her feelings from her father and/or oldest brother? Assuming, that is, she did love Rhaegar and didn't want to marry the man her father pledged her to marry. The young woman described by Ned as having a streak of the "wild wolf" in her seems likely to have spoken up to me. She may have not only have told her father and brothers that she didn't want to go through with the marriage, but she could have even left them a note saying she was refusing to do so when she left with Rhaegar. We don't know, but the question of "why didn't she inform her family?" should be answered after we ask ourselves "did she let her family know she was leaving willingly?" - which we don't know the answer to - and barring that knowledge, at least, by asking ourselves what is more likely given the facts as we know them. I argue the facts point more in the direction that her family knew she went willingly, and Brandon's actions are best explained by other causes than trying to rescue his sister from a "kidnapping." It is certainly possible to argue that Lyanna was kidnapped, but I think the idea that she was just stupid for not letting her family know assumes things we just don't know and is missing way too many steps in unraveling this mystery.

[Sera dy Relandrant]

She always liked winter roses! Even before Rhaegar gave her the crown of roses, doesn't Ned once mention that his sister always loved the scent of winter roses? Maybe those winter roses symbolized a happier time to her and not just the time when Rhaegar had given them to her.

[SFDanny]

She always liked winter roses! Even before Rhaegar gave her the crown of roses, doesn't Ned once mention that his sister always loved the scent of winter roses? Maybe those winter roses symbolized a happier time to her and not just the time when Rhaegar had given them to her.

If so we don't know about it. We do know they are associated with the crown given Lyanna by Rhaegar at Harrenhal

[Masha]

If so we don't know about it. We do know they are associated with the crown given Lyanna by Rhaegar at Harrenhal

Was the a description of flowers being fresh or dry, scented or not? Because the crown given to Lyanna by Rhaegar was made up of fresh flowers and it was over a year ago!

[Tryggvason]

You've gotta think about the social mentality of that time (I compare the mentality of a person to dark/medieval age ... but thats just me) To run away with a high ranking nobles daughter, even if he is a heir to the crown would have been a big deal. First of all Im not a fan of Targaryen family in general (I think its because I don't like dragons) but the brutal truth here is the "horny dragon" since he is above or around 25 years old ... getting it on with 15 year old girl. The dude should know there will be consequences (consequence = his body smashed by a war hammer)

As for Lyanna being stupid? I would say no because shes just 15. Daddy should have beaten her into submission because there ware no social services back then!

[SFDanny]

Was the a description of flowers being fresh or dry, scented or not? Because the crown given to Lyanna by Rhaegar was made up of fresh flowers and it was over a year ago!

From A Game of Thrones pages 35 and 36:

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. after that he remembered nothing.

emphasis added

So, the rose petals Lyanna clutches as she dies are "dead and black" flowers, not unlike the blue roses Rhaegar gave her a year previously would be if she had saved them all that time. Why Martin would describe these flowers as dead and black if they are not the same flowers escapes me, but at the very least it is a large nudge that they might well be from Lyanna's crown of love and beauty. If so, it hardly sounds like the action of a woman who was a captive or had repented of her "infatuation" with Rhaegar.

Tryggvason, Rhaegar is 23 or 24 when he dies in 283 (born in 259) and Lyanna is 16, not an age difference that is remarkable in Martin's world. As to "Daddy should have beaten her into submission" I am hoping that was tongue in cheek, because hoping a father beats his daughter into marrying someone she doesn't want to is so beyond the pale that I can only shake my head in amazement.

[Tryggvason]

Again it was sociably acceptable to beat kids back in the day. Was it right? Thats a different story ...

[Valmy]

Again it was sociably acceptable to beat kids back in the day. Was it right? Thats a different story ...

And by back in the day we mean a few decades ago.

[Lord of Brewtown]

If true, how do we explain the fact Ned finds Lyanna dying, while holding on to flowers that sound very suspiciously like the flowers Rhaegar gave her at the tourney at Harrenhal? Doesn't sound like a case of recanting, or growing out of love with Rhaegar.

As I've said a few times here, we don't know there is a "gap of informing her family." We know Lyanna has questions about marrying Robert that she talks to Ned about. We know the brothers are present when the events at the tourney take place - which may have been where a love affair is sparked between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Why is it that so many jump to the conclusion that Lyanna hides her feelings from her father and/or oldest brother? Assuming, that is, she did love Rhaegar and didn't want to marry the man her father pledged her to marry. The young woman described by Ned as having a streak of the "wild wolf" in her seems likely to have spoken up to me. She may have not only have told her father and brothers that she didn't want to go through with the marriage, but she could have even left them a note saying she was refusing to do so when she left with Rhaegar. We don't know, but the question of "why didn't she inform her family?" should be answered after we ask ourselves "did she let her family know she was leaving willingly?" - which we don't know the answer to - and barring that knowledge, at least, by asking ourselves what is more likely given the facts as we know them. I argue the facts point more in the direction that her family knew she went willingly, and Brandon's actions are best explained by other causes than trying to rescue his sister from a "kidnapping." It is certainly possible to argue that Lyanna was kidnapped, but I think the idea that she was just stupid for not letting her family know assumes things we just don't know and is missing way too many steps in unraveling this mystery.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. I'm not saying that there was a gap in informing her family - I'm saying this theory addresses the 'perceived' gap - under this theory her family would have known - Brandon still may have done what he did under this scenario.

Also, I never used of the word 'recant', & don't think it really fits this situation. More like she though she loved Rhaegar/definitely lusted after him, but then the heat died down & he wasn't a fit.

Yeah - the blue roses are a bit of a gap (but there's one in every theory out there). And how long would those initial roses have kept anyway (at least nine months)? Also, she could have associated the roses with here unborn child & not Rhaegar (just because she may have decided she did not want to be with rhaegar doesn't necessarily mean she would have regretted having the child).

I agree the theory they fell in love & ran off seems *most* likely - but, in my opinion, that's actually a pretty clean & tidy theory, cleaner & tidier than much of GRRM's writing has been (and makes Lyanna & Rhaegar both very one-dimensional characters in my eyes)

[mshafty]

I love everyone thinks that they were in love and that GRRM is going to reveal that Lyanna and Raegar were Romeo and Juliet and that they had Jon together... and bla bla it was this amazing love between ice and fire.

This is GRRM! I haven't seen to many happy stories out of him yet. I bet it turns out that Raegar kidnapped lyanna and him and his best bud Arthur Dane ran a train on her for year long! she died in child birth and Ned's promise was to kill the dragon spawn that popped out of her. Finally jon is actually Ned and some random tavern wench's kid. (I dont believe this, but hell who knows with GRRM)

i still don't know why people think brandon is such an idiot and that all the starks knew that lyanna was in love with rhaegar! Where does it point this out in the book? Seems to me that lyanna just up and disappeared and that word spread that rhaegar took her. Besides a few pro targ people and few thoughts by ned that don't paint rhaegar as a rapist we dont have that much info on him. From the books ive read most people seem to be under the assumption that she was kidnapped by rhaegar.

I said in an earlier post i dont think i would act that much differently thaa brandon. All the starks seemed pretty close as a family and really what else course of action did brandon have than quickly ride to the red keep to get lyanna back?? Also all we have is jaime's memory on the scene. Who knows if it was word for word (rhaegar, come out and die) what brandon said. He very well could have asked for his sister first and when he got no response he challenged rhaegar.

[Dragonfish]

I love everyone thinks that they were in love and that GRRM is going to reveal that Lyanna and Raegar were Romeo and Juliet and that they had Jon together... and bla bla it was this amazing love between ice and fire.

Romeo and Juliet is interpreted by many as a tragic story of two people who were too rash and impulsive with their love. Reminds me a lot of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I don't think anyone on the boards has described Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship as "amazing love" as if this were some sort of Twilight story. Many people who have claimed they were in love have also said that they were stupid when the ran off together. So please stop mischaracterizing people's arguments.

This is GRRM! I haven't seen to many happy stories out of him yet. I bet it turns out that Raegar kidnapped lyanna and him and his best bud Arthur Dane ran a train on her for year long! she died in child birth and Ned's promise was to kill the dragon spawn that popped out of her. Finally jon is actually Ned and some random tavern wench's kid. (I dont believe this, but hell who knows with GRRM)

"GRRM would never do that!" is an oft-heard claim, but it barely counts as an argument. Martin's world isn't devoid of actual love an happiness, it's a world where love and happiness are often undercut by reality and circumstances. That would certainly be the case with Rhaegar and Lyanna, who both lost a lot as a result of their actions.

Besides a few pro targ people and few thoughts by ned that don't paint rhaegar as a rapist we dont have that much info on him. From the books ive read most people seem to be under the assumption that she was kidnapped by rhaegar.

1) It's interesting that you dismiss Ned's thoughts on Rhaegar, even though he of all people ought to have the most negative opinion of Rhaegar if Lyanna had actually been raped by him. Yet he doesn't seem to have any negative thoughts on him at all. This is pretty important evidence that can't simply be dismissed in an aside.

2) The only people who've ever claimed Lyanna was kidnapped and raped were Robert, who is a pretty biased source, and Bran, who wasn't even alive at the time. Perhaps the latter example indicates that many people believe she was kidnapped (or at least, many people in Winterfell believe she was kidnapped), but so what? Were any of these people actually there when she was kidnapped? GRRM has demonstrated on a number of occasions how factual events can be twisted through rumor, so who's to say the same didn't happen with Lyanna and Rhaegar?

I said in an earlier post i dont think i would act that much differently thaa brandon. All the starks seemed pretty close as a family and really what else course of action did brandon have than quickly ride to the red keep to get lyanna back?? Also all we have is jaime's memory on the scene. Who knows if it was word for word (rhaegar, come out and die) what brandon said. He very well could have asked for his sister first and when he got no response he challenged rhaegar.

If you really think that what Brandon did was his only option, then you're not thinking hard enough.

I can understand Brandon's desire to get his sister back, but how would strolling into the Red Keep practically alone and demanding her return actually accomplish that?

[mshafty]

Yah when I was referring to romeo and juliet I was referring to R&L having a tragic love story. I don't thing GRRM will have it be that simple.

What I meant by that "GRRM wouldn't do that" I was more making the point we don't know what happened until he reveals it to us. So many people think one thing and then BAM GRRM hits us with something unexpected. honestly R&L falling in love and then having jon as their son who will end up saving the world just doesn't seem like GRRM to me, but who knows.

Your right about Ned. Thats why I said mentioned him in that we got a glimpse of Rhaegars character. Ned doesn't seem to think of him in anger, which does lead one to suspect that Lyanna probably either a) loved rhaegar or B) accepted her fate in fulfilling his prophesy.

To be honest its been while since I read the books, but I think there were other passages that mention her kidnapping. Robert is definitely biased, but I would say Bran thinking that indicated that good amount of the population believes it too. I doubt Ned and Cat were the types to openly discuss something like that with their kids. Also Ned seems to not tell anyone anything about the war, rhaegar and lyanna.

I think Rhaegar was noble, brave, intelligent..ect and probably just plain crazy when it came to his prophesy. I think he either a) convinced lyanna how important she was and she feel in love with him and ran off or B) he took her against her will and later she accepted her role. They were both stupid though, or at least rhaegar was a little crazy and didn't care and lyanna was just a willful girl of 15.

As for Brandon. I guess I have a soft spot for him, because I do think he was under the impression that she was kidnapped. Maybe part of it was that he thought starks honor was at stake, but from the little we've seen of all the starks they're a close nit pack. He went into rampage mode and I think I would have done the same if i thought some dude 10 years her senior was raping her in the red keep. But we need to know more information to be sure.

Was him challenging rhaegar dumb..you bet, but really what were his options other than doing nothing? He was closest to the red keep. Rickard was far away in winterfell, and ned and robert were in the vale. To rally enough nobles together to go question the king could take months and by that time he has no idea what could happen to lyanna. Plus it may have well led to the same outcome of everyone getting burned by the mad king.

Anyways its easy to call everyone an idiot in this book after the fact. Hell look at everyone that is dead. Pretty much all them could be called idiots for how they were killed. Hell if little finger ends up dead I'm sure everyone on here will rave on and on how stupid he was.

[Hirgon]

In response to the OP: Lyanna may have been "stupid or something," but this is definitely not a plothole in Martin's writing. Even if Lyanna had sent a message to her family, it wouldn't have changed a thing. In Westeros, bethrothals aren't taken lightly, and breaking them is unthinkable (see: House Frey's willingness to break the "law" of hospitality with the Red Wedding) except in the most extreme circumstances (Joff and Sansa, due to Ned's "treason").

Also,even with word from Lyanna, the R & L thing was essentially the equivalent of an affair from the perspective of all parties involved (particularly in Robert's eyes, but also to the Starks). When people have affairs, they try very hard not to get caught, and when they get caught, they try very hard to cover things up. When that fails, a husband (or father)will sometimes refuse to believe that their wife (or daughter) could betray them so horribly, and instead blame the man and go out for his blood. Rhaeger was beloved by the people of Westeros, but the Starks and Baratheons were quick to change their minds about his integrity once the whole scandal came to light.

[Raventhal]

Go romance and run off with someone's 15 year old daughter with loving parents in your mid 20's and see if you don't get slapped with kidnapping charges. While there aren't minor laws back then they certainly had a code and taking a 15 year old girl that's been married off consensual or not is kidnapping. Not to mention this man is married and taking her virginity prior to being married off.

Lyanna I doubt was stupid but was probably naive and unwise and young. But there are plenty of woman who young and old who lose their mind for men. Especially a pretty prince showing her some attention.

Brandon's reaction is not that far off from most guys, especially young guys. An older married guy just took his sister and likely sexing her. This isn't modern days where random hook ups were cool. Son's are bastards born out of wedlock and woman and children are near property especially in noble houses. At best he's taking advantage of and having sex with his younger underaged soon to be wed sister and at worst he's kidnapped and raping her. A lot of guys would have wanted to punch the Prince of Dragon's face in. It totally lays a #2 on the honor of three of the former royal houses of the realm.

The Mad King was totally out of line after he arrested Brandon. He should have given them back to their fathers he summoned and checked his own son's reckless actions. His sons acts were likely treasonous to the realm or at least to the houses which are involved because this isn't a centralized kingdom.

What Rhaegar did is Robb X3 inflamed literally by the Mad King.

[Luin]

Go romance and run off with someone's 15 year old daughter with loving parents in your mid 20's and see if you don't get slapped with kidnapping charges. While there aren't minor laws back then they certainly had a code and taking a 15 year old girl that's been married off consensual or not is kidnapping. Not to mention this man is married and taking her virginity prior to being married off.

By modern standards her family was literally selling her and using her as adhesive glue to make sure a political alliance continues. If you bring modern standards in you have to use the entire thing, or of course you could use Medieval/Westeros standards under which 15 is not only an adult but the honorable Ned Stark is giving his 13 year old Sansa in marriage to Joffrey to seal his alliance with the king. Is Ned dishonorable?

Lyanna I doubt was stupid but was probably naive and unwise and young. But there are plenty of woman who young and old who lose their mind for men. Especially a pretty prince showing her some attention.

Her family not having any regards for her feelings about a union with Robert certainly helped that, so I agree.

Brandon's reaction is not that far off from most guys, especially young guys.

Tyrion Lannister would have investigated first, I somehow doubt that a challenge to a duel would have been the first reaction for any of the "wise" characters, LF would not have acted that way. The difference? Brandon was impulsive and did the first thing that came to mind, after deciding the first thought to come into his mind was right (without going over the facts he knew).

The Mad King was totally out of line after he arrested Brandon.

How? The killing of Brandon was way out of line, but Brandon came in and declared his intention to kill Rhaegar.

He should have given them back to their fathers he summoned and checked his own son's reckless actions.

His son commits adultery (ok as long as it isn't with another man's wife in Westeros) and ran off with a woman who was engaged against her will. It was reckless but the rebellion started because he killed Ned's father and brother while demanding Robert and Ned's head. How is Rhaegar to blame and not Brandon if either are to blame? The blame actually belongs to The Mad King, and how he handled the situation.

About Bran thinking it was rape, that isn't evidence. He doesn't yet know what sex is, his thinking it was rape just comes from Cat or one of his tutors telling him it was. Saying Rhaegar was morally right and legally did nothing more then disrupt a political and material agreement would be treason because it implies the rebellion was unjustified. Robert Baratheon set the narrative of the rebellion based on Lyanna so of course Bran accepts that narrative.

[Dragonfish]

Yah when I was referring to romeo and juliet I was referring to R&L having a tragic love story. I don't thing GRRM will have it be that simple.

How would Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna be less simple? Characters in the book outright state she was raped, so it's not a hard theory to come up with. In contrast, it takes a bit of reading between the lines to figure out that she may have gone willingly.

What I meant by that "GRRM wouldn't do that" I was more making the point we don't know what happened until he reveals it to us. So many people think one thing and then BAM GRRM hits us with something unexpected.

Translation: the theory I don't like has good textual support, so I'm going to assume that it's all just Martin trying to surprise us.

Look, if you're going to argue against this theory, then please rely on counter-evidence. Don't go for the old standby of "GRRM would never do something so obvious/it's just a red herring."

To be honest its been while since I read the books, but I think there were other passages that mention her kidnapping. Robert is definitely biased, but I would say Bran thinking that indicated that good amount of the population believes it too.

I'm pretty sure Robert and Bran are the only ones who mention that Lyanna was kidnapped/raped. Robert is a pretty biased source, so he's not very reliable. And Bran's comments don't really indicate that a "good amount of the population" believes it, since Bran has barely been outside Winterfell. But even if everyone did believe it, that's not proof of much. A good amount of the population also believed that Ned betrayed Robert's trueborn children, or that Tyrion was an evil monkey demon who was responsible for all the realm's troubles. The opinions of people who weren't actually involved doesn't hold much weight, IMO.

By the way, I'm a little bit confused by this line of argument on your part. If your impression from the books was that Lyanna was kidnapped, and you think that's what the general population in the books believes as well, then wouldn't it be more unexpected for GRRM to reveal that she wasn't kidnapped?

As for Brandon. I guess I have a soft spot for him, because I do think he was under the impression that she was kidnapped. Maybe part of it was that he thought starks honor was at stake, but from the little we've seen of all the starks they're a close nit pack. He went into rampage mode and I think I would have done the same if i thought some dude 10 years her senior was raping her in the red keep. But we need to know more information to be sure.

Was him challenging rhaegar dumb..you bet, but really what were his options other than doing nothing? He was closest to the red keep. Rickard was far away in winterfell, and ned and robert were in the vale. To rally enough nobles together to go question the king could take months and by that time he has no idea what could happen to lyanna. Plus it may have well led to the same outcome of everyone getting burned by the mad king.

It really doesn't take much smarts to realize that you're not going to get your sister back from the prince who stole her by marching into the heavily-protected throne room with barely any protection for yourself and committing treason. There were other options other than treason and acquiescence, and I'm really tired of people reducing his choices to these two things. There was no way Brandon was going to get his sister back immediately, whether he gave up or charged into the throne room threatening the Crown Prince. The smart thing would have been to realize that, and to marshal one's forces instead of charging recklessly into danger.

Anyways its easy to call everyone an idiot in this book after the fact.

But it's justified in Brandon's case, because it doesn't take a high degree of intelligence to understand that the king won't like it when you commit treason in his presence.