So was Lyanna stupid or something?

[Restless]

There's a big difference between casually screwing whores, and having a single mistress, especially if you believe this mistress is necessary to fulfill a prophecy that will save the world.

What, even if one believes that a prophecy says his 100-th son will save the world? :shocked:

Well, why should he be responsible for the Rebellion? If not for Brandon's rashness and Aerys's abrupt turn to the worse in his madness, it wouldn't have happened, IMHO.

Why should Brandon be responsible? It was up to Lyanna's "wildness" and Rhaegar's irresponsibility.

[Maia]

Why should Brandon be responsible?

Because he reacted in an unwarranted and completely idiotic manner to his sister's indiscretion, trumpeting the news of it across the whole of Westeros in the process? Seriously, if you think about it rationally, there was no up to Brandon's actions - they were detrimental all around and would have been even with a reasonable king.

I mean, indiscretions of noble daughters happen and are usually hushed up in one manner or another - but no, _Brandon_ couldn't be bothered to keep it all close to the chest and to try to reach some kind of accomodation quietly.

[Luin]

Because he reacted in an unwarranted and completely idiotic manner to his sister's indiscretion, trumpeting the news of it across the whole of Westeros in the process? Seriously, if you think about it rationally, there was no up to Brandon's actions - they were detrimental all around and would have been even with a reasonable king.

I mean, indiscretions of noble daughters happen and are usually hushed up in one manner or another - but no, _Brandon_ couldn't be bothered to keep it all close to the chest and to try to reach some kind of accomodation quietly.

He mishandled everything, but as much as I would hate to have that type of value system today in Westeros it seems running off with Lyanna consent or not is their definition of abduction. Think about it women have no rights as far as marriage goes (Robert would not have raped Cersei if it would cause scandal he would have just hired whores every night), or in deciding who they marry. Her consent was irrelevant, Rhaegar from a Westeros point of view needed either the consent of her father and brothers or not to take her. It wasn't just that his sister was gone, he was robbed and he acted emotionally because of it.

P.S. for what it's worth I think that the relationship was with consent. The only one who's opinion is relevant who thinks it wasn't is Robert and the child Bran (who probably got it from a royalist source, and wouldn't be inclined to call his aunt a whore anyway) the Harenhall Witnesses and everyone else including Ned thought they had eloped. Ned point blank refuses to agree with King Robert that she was abducted. It also seems everyone with some degree of involvement with Rhaegar knew it wasn't in his character. Not that it matters because Jon has no Dragons but if Auntie D writes up a celebacy waiver and orders him to produce a Targ to succeed her on the throne and send him/her to her throne he could become very influential as father of the King. How many new recruits and chests of gold do you think Aunt D would send her beloved Nephew J if he produced an heir for her?

[Xenophon]

What, even if one believes that a prophecy says his 100-th son will save the world? :shocked:

Yes, IMO. Sandsnake was saying she found it odd that Lyanna could love Rheagar, given that she seemed revolted by Robert's infidelity. I think there's a major difference in kind between Robert (casually screwing any woman in sight) and Rheagar (taking a single mistress, either out of love or to complete a prophecy), which makes it quite explicable how Lyanna could love the one, while finding the other revolting. And that's leaving aside the point that she'd the mistress with Rheagar rather than the betrayed spouse.

Why should Brandon be responsible? It was up to Lyanna's "wildness" and Rhaegar's irresponsibility.

If your impulsive and hotheaded sister disappeared with a married man she had been flirting with, would you automatically assume he had kidnapped her, or would you maybe make inquiries about whether they were having an affair. Now, imagine this man is the son of a "Mad King", and replace "assuming she is kidnapped" with threatening to kill him in the Mad King's castle. Oh, and by making a public fuss about this, you're also potentially endangering your sister's chances of making a good marriage, should Robert call things off.

[Luin]

Yes, IMO. Sandsnake was saying she found it odd that Lyanna could love Rheagar, given that she seemed revolted by Robert's infidelity. I think there's a major difference in kind between Robert (casually screwing any woman in sight) and Rheagar (taking a single mistress, either out of love or to complete a prophecy), which makes it quite explicable how Lyanna could love the one, while finding the other revolting. And that's leaving aside the point that she'd the mistress with Rheagar rather than the betrayed spouse.

If your impulsive and hotheaded sister disappeared with a married man she had been flirting with, would you automatically assume he had kidnapped her, or would you maybe make inquiries about whether they were having an affair. Now, imagine this man is the son of a "Mad King", and replace "assuming she is kidnapped" with threatening to kill him in the Mad King's castle. Oh, and by making a public fuss about this, you're also potentially endangering your sister's chances of making a good marriage, should Robert call things off.

I think Lyanna's consent was irrelevant. From his perspective Brandon was robbed by a royal thief and failed to contain his emotions. Lyanna could have sent him a postcard saying I love being a second wife to someone who may commit bigamy but not adultery, is highly cultured, the crown prince, and who I am infatuated with and he would have done the same thing.

[Drowned Princess]

I think in Westeros it's harder to marry who you love than whom your family has arranged for you to marry to set up allegiances between houses. I mean, look at Sansa, even Fabulous Ned betrothes her to Joffrey to seal the deal between Stark and Baratheon that was missed when Lyanna ran off. As mentioned before, look at Hoster Tully with Lysa and Petyr. If you think of Lyanna as Arya, and then imagine Arya wanting to run off and marry someone that unsuitable (perhaps not 'unsuitable' for the gigantic reasons that it will offend who you're already betrothed to and might start a humungous war, but just 'unsuitable' for whatever reason), then consider how Ned (if he was still alive) and, say, Jon would deal with that? Do you not think they would go after her and try to stop it happening? Or would they let her go and bugger the consequences?

Brandon is hot-headed and temperamental. He may have gone after Rhaegar; but maybe he was just using fightin' talk to make a point cos he was mad. Lyanna is wilful and impulsive, she falls in love with glorious dragon boy who is sad with his wife and wants to run off and be happy with him. She doesn't think that much about her dad and brothers. When Robb marries Jeyne instead of a Frey he causes massive calamity that could perhaps have been more skillfully dealt with were it not that other grievances, deals to be made, and certain mad people got in the way. Lyanna 'marrying' Rhaegar could/would have had similar consequences that perhaps the Starks were trying to avoid by catching them early enough before they could cause the realm real harm, and just did a hell of a botched job; they underestimated how mad Aerys had become.

Have you never had your little sister get a boyfriend that you didn't like, not because of anything wrong with him, but because it was your little sister and she should know better? I bet if Ned had gone after Rhaegar, instead of Brandon, he'd have calmly tried to talk him down and into seeing sense. Maybe they thought trying to put off honourable and sensible Rhaegar was easier than trying to put off wild Lyanna, but Brandon's temper got in the way.

I reckon Lyanna didn't realise how much of a massive deal it would be (or didn't care), Brandon (perhaps worrying aout his family honour) let his temper about the whole situation get the better of him and inflamed matters, Robert is obviously raging anyway cos Lyanna is supposed to be his, and Rickard and Ned had to be pulled along for the ride. Honour comes first, and the honour lies with Robert and Elia, regardless of how Lyanna and Rhaegar feel about things. That's why Ned marries Catelyn, and kills Lady after all, his own feelings notwithstanding.

[Xenophon]

I think Lyanna's consent was irrelevant. From his perspective Brandon was robbed by a royal thief and failed to contain his emotions. Lyanna could have sent him a postcard saying I love being a second wife to someone who may commit bigamy but not adultery, is highly cultured, the crown prince, and who I am infatuated with and he would have done the same thing.

You may be right (personally, I think he's be a little less rash, if he though she had gone willingly). But it doesn't change the fact that his reaction to the news is one of the main causes of the war.

[chris.t.]

I'm sorry, but what was Brandon supposed to do?

"Well, I'm Brandon Stark, heir to the Kings of the North, one of the oldest and most powerful families in Westeros and the Crown Prince treats my sister - who happens to be betrothed to the heir of one of the other great families of Westeros, who also happens to be my younger brother's best friend - like a whore. Well, I guess thems the breaks."

No. The Seven Kingdoms are not a monolithic imperial society in which the ruling family can do whatever it wishes. It's a feudal society in which the king and his bannermen owe mutual duties to one another. And the king's primary duty to his bannermen is, "Don't mess with the bannermen's stuff." Generally, the bannerman gets to run his fiefdom as he wishes as long as he pays taxes and provides support (troops) in times of war. Westeros seems to be a particularly decentralized feudal society in that things like religion and inheritance law are not controlled by the monarchy, and the monarchy does not have a standing force of its own other than than a couple thousand gold cloaks to keep order in King's Landing.

In other words, Rhaegar violated one of the central tenants of the covenant between the Starks and Targaryens, which had stood in place for centuries since the old King of the North took a knee before the Conqueror. It was a complete usurpation of the Stark's authority. It was a power grab by the son of a king commonly known to be insane. It was likely, not just for the Starks, but for many of the noble families, the straw that broke the camel's back with regard to their faith in the Targaryen dynasty...

"The mad king was bad enough, but now his heir is pulling a stunt like this? It's just not going to get any better. By the way, have you noticed they don't have dragons anymore?"

Now, if Aerys hadn't been bat-poop crazy, he likely could have brought Brandon in, said, "I know wrongs have been done, and we can work to set things right." Instead he turns a crisis in confidence into an outright rebellion by ratifying his son's actions and executing anyone who says otherwise. At that point, the Targaryens are openly saying, "We can do anything we want; we owe you nothing; your daughters are ours, you lands are ours, and if your sons have a problem with it, they can burn alive."

Which gets me back to the original post... The question isn't what Lyanna was thinking. The question is what the heck Rhaegar was thinking - he was supposed to be well-liked, charming, and most of all intelligent. How could he have put himself in that position? Personally, I think we're missing a major piece of the puzzle.

[Bronn Stone]

Lyanna isn't stupid. Rheagar kidnapped her and locked her in a tower between rapes, because he was a horny, insane Targaryen. Basically Viserys writ large.

That's what the text says. You can infer and imply and theorise all you want, but I can guarantee you're wrong. Because without the quotes to back it up, these fanwank theories are just gigantic, pointless wastes of time and bandwidth.

If you are going to use snotty dismissive language, you'd better be damned sure you are right. Too bad you aren't here. There is nothing like being condescending, scornful and dead wrong to establish a reputation on this forum.

Daenerys POV - AGOT

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.

We know the Baratheon version of the tale, and it is much as you suggest. But that is not consistent with the Targaryen version, shown above. The Targs remember Rhaegar loving Lyanna, not locking her in a tower. These two contradict each other - they cannot both be accurate description of these events.

But which is true? We don't really get the Stark version. But as I remember from a mystery story I once saw/read (Holmes?), sometimes the clue is the dog that DOESN'T bark.

Eddard reflects on Rhaegar a half dozen times. Sometimes aloud, sometimes in his head. But not once does he think 'rape'. He has no enmity toward Rhaegar at all, as far as we see. His reaction is 'wistful' rather than 'wrathful'. There is no way in He** he can be wistful about Rhaegar if the Rhaegar locked her in a tower and raped her. It isn't reasonable. It isn't even remotely reasonable.

The only reasonable conclusion is that the Baratheon version of the tale is false. The Targ might be as well, but Eddard's reaction IS consistent with his sister running off with the man she loved. The prudent conclusion is to dismiss Robert's version of the tale and treat Viserys/Daenerys' as 'possible, perhaps even probable'.

As to the wisdom of Lyanna's actions, one cannot judge them in the absence of what I believe to be the prime motivation for them. Rhaegar builds his whole life around a prophecy he reads as a child (it seems I am to be a warrior). We know that magic is real in Westeros and prophecies can be real. GRRM has gone out of his way to avoid telling us this prophecy so far. Most likely because it would give away too much. But it would be a very wise idea to withhold judgment of Rhaegar (or those influenced by Rhaegar, such as Lyanna) without that key bit of information. The doom of the world is reawakening in the far North and someone(s) or something(s) will be needed to stop it.

The Stark (after Lyanna herself) who knew the truth best is clearly Eddard. He only learned the whole story at the ToJ, when a dying Lyanna exacted a promise from him - a promise he both kept AND which caused him pain over the years. It is unfathomable to believe that it was "think kindly of the Prince who locked me in a tower and raped me because he was a horndog".

[Dragonfish]

My problem with this idea is that its kind of a reach. For one Rhaegar was a mere prince and may or may not be an heir but he wasn't king so he couldn't just change laws whenever he wanted to.

First of all, you're assuming that polygamy is against the law rather than fallen out of favor, which you have yet to provide textual evidence for. If you could offer me a quotation supporting this, then I'll concede the point.

In any event, whether it's against the law or not, we know that when Rhaegar sets his sights on something he wants or thinks he needs to do, he just goes out and does it. Case in point, when Rhaegar read a prophecy that said he needed to be a warrior (or so he believed), he went out and became a warrior. Just like that. Despite having been a bookworm for his whole life before then. That's who Rhaegar is.

We also know that Rhaegar intended to call a Great Council after the war was over, presumably to depose Aerys. Now, I won't go so far as to say that this was his intention all along, but I will say that this episode demonstrates that Rhaegar believes he has clout. Would that clout have been enough to allow him to reinstitute polygamy? Maybe. At the very least, I think he believed he had enough clout to do that. But then again, he also didn't seem to anticipate the war his actions caused, so who's to say he would have correctly anticipated the pushback his desire to restore polygamy might have caused?

I'm sorry, but what was Brandon supposed to do?

"Well, I'm Brandon Stark, heir to the Kings of the North, one of the oldest and most powerful families in Westeros and the Crown Prince treats my sister - who happens to be betrothed to the heir of one of the other great families of Westeros, who also happens to be my younger brother's best friend - like a whore. Well, I guess thems the breaks."

This is a false dilemma. Brandon's choices were not just inaction or wildly stupid action. There were other options available to him.

Now, I don't doubt that Brandon's options were limited in this scenario, I just think he had more options than the two you present. And of the options he had, charging into the throne room and threatening the crown prince was the worst he could have chosen.

[chris.t.]

I'd like to know what his other options were. It basically came down to acceptance or protest. A politely worded letter would either make him just as dead or have been completely ignored.

Or he could have appeared in person and tried to be reasonable...

"I'd like to have a word with Prince Rhaegar."

"The Prince isn't here?"

"Do you know where he is."

"Nope, but wherever he is, I'm pretty sure he's @#$%ing your sister."

"Well, OK then. Have a nice day."

It may have been wiser for his own personal safety to call his banners and march in force, but that would have started the rebellion sooner rather than forestalling it.

[Luin]

You may be right (personally, I think he's be a little less rash, if he though she had gone willingly). But it doesn't change the fact that his reaction to the news is one of the main causes of the war.

Glad we agree, the war had nothing to do with Lyanna's feelings. It wasn't how Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar that caused the war, it was Brandon's impulsive reaction to being wronged, and the kings own impulsive reaction to Brandon's reaction that brought everything down.

Lyanna and Rhaegar bring a much needed element of doubt into the picture about the concept of honor, which I consider needed. Honor codes in the real middle ages included all sorts of harm both to powerful knights and helpless women, why should honor in fantasy always be 100% positive?

[Talleyrand]

Glad we agree, the war had nothing to do with Lyanna's feelings. It wasn't how Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar that caused the war, it was Brandon's impulsive reaction to being wronged, and the kings own impulsive reaction to Brandon's reaction that brought everything down.

Lyanna and Rhaegar bring a much needed element of doubt into the picture about the concept of honor, which I consider needed. Honor codes in the real middle ages included all sorts of harm both to powerful knights and helpless women, why should honor in fantasy always be 100% positive?

I'm not sure about the whole Brandon acting impulsively thing. He is under the impression that his sister has been kidnapped and being raped. Now we know he is a hot headed. Now compare it to the other hot heads of his generation. How do you think Jaime would have reacted if he heard that Cersei had been kidnapped and was being raped by Rhaegar. Oberyn tried to make Dorne go to war with the rest of the seven kingdoms until Doran talked him down.

[Dragonfish]

I'd like to know what his other options were. It basically came down to acceptance or protest.

Again, false dilemma. You talk about protest as if protest=charging into the throne room and threatening the crown prince, but that's not the only way Brandon could have resisted. He could have conferred with his father and brother, as well as Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and potentially Hoster Tully. With four of the Great Houses on his side, they could have pressured for a Great Council to depose Aerys. Perhaps rebellion would have resulted from this course of action as well, but with the key difference that Brandon would still be alive. How is that not automatically a better option?

[Talleyrand]

Again, false dilemma. You talk about protest as if protest=charging into the throne room and threatening the crown prince, but that's not the only way Brandon could have resisted. He could have conferred with his father and brother, as well as Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and potentially Hoster Tully. With four of the Great Houses on his side, they could have pressured for a Great Council to depose Aerys. Perhaps rebellion would have resulted from this course of action as well, but with the key difference that Brandon would still be alive. How is that not automatically a better option?

Brandon was hot headed and in the Riverlands. Ned, Jon and Robert were in the Vale. His father in Winterfell. He can't really go and ask them all for their opinion.

[Maia]

I'd like to know what his other options were. It basically came down to acceptance or protest.

Sigh. Why would finding out what was really going on and trying to quietly find some reasonable solution be out of question? Do you really think that it served Stark honor in the least to trumpet Lyanna's indiscretion in front of the whole court?

And no, if there was no abduction, it wasn't a sufficient cause for war. I mean, Hoster Tully didn't think that it was appropriate to kill LF for deflowering Lysa - why would it be appropriate to kill Rhaegar for deflowering Lyanna, if it happened with her consent and he was prepared to make sufficient restitution?

Maybe R&L didn't foresee the explosion because Brandon's reaction was completely unreasonable, eh? And then Aerys's response was incomparably more so.

Remember, Lord Rickard didn't consider either Lyanna's elopement or even Brandon's arrest to be sufficient reasons to call his banners. So, _he_ certainly didn't share Brandon's views on the matter.

It was only after Aerys horrifically executed Rickard, Brandon and others with them, including the heir to the Vale, and demanded Ned's and Robert's heads from their beloved foster-father Jon Arryn, that the rebellion started..

I'm notsure about the whole Brandon acting impulsively thing. He is under theimpression that his sister has been kidnapped and being raped.

Was he? Funny, how he didn't even mention Lyanna or demand her return when he screamed for Rhaegar to come out and die, isn't it?

And Brandon could have totally asked advice of his almost father-in-law Hoster Tully, who thought that his reaction was foolish.

[Luin]

I'm not sure about the whole Brandon acting impulsively thing. He is under the impression that his sister has been kidnapped and being raped. Now we know he is a hot headed. Now compare it to the other hot heads of his generation. How do you think Jaime would have reacted if he heard that Cersei had been kidnapped and was being raped by Rhaegar. Oberyn tried to make Dorne go to war with the rest of the seven kingdoms until Doran talked him down.

That is exactly what Brandon did, the only difference is his thought was to settle it man to man without getting armies involved, and unfortunately he found the wrong man and a group of pyromaniacs awaiting him. He also didn't investigate which doesn't show him to be level headed. His sister was impulsive, independent minded, resentful of their match for her, and had been (by Westeros standards) flirting with Rhaegar after Rhaegar gave her the crown. Yes the other hot heads would have either brought an army or also tried to settle it man to man instantly, but that doesn't make Brandon level headed. A level headed Tywin would have investigated first and stayed alive while demanding benefits befitting a father in-law, same goes for Tyrion.

Out of all the Westeros Flaws presented impulsiveness is the least bad, but it does have a tendency to cause peoples deaths.

[Dragonfish]

Brandon was hot headed and in the Riverlands. Ned, Jon and Robert were in the Vale. His father in Winterfell. He can't really go and ask them all for their opinion.

No, but he can summon them to meet with him and confer. Obviously Brandon wouldn't do that because it's not in his character. But I'm just pointing out one of the options available to Brandon other than charging into the throne room and threatening the Crown Prince. Are you saying that you agree with chris.t that this was his only option other than acquiescence?

[lokisnow]

I believe Rickard and Brandon - and likely Ned and Benjen as well - knew all along Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. After all, the brothers were at Harrenhal with Lyanna and know of the events there. They, along with the rest of Westerosi nobility, know of the blue roses Rhaegar gave their sister. They know of her reaction to Rhaegar's song. They, I believe, know of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's roles in the Knight of the Laughing Tree saga. They know, I think, of the romance started there between their sister and the Prince. On top of this, Ned, at least, knows of Lyanna's reservations about her betrothal to Robert that follows the tourney. All of this is likely known to Lord Rickard as well via his sons or servant's reports, if not Lyanna's own words to her father - which doesn't stop his announcement of the engagement.

In short, Brandon and Rickard don't act the way the do, I believe, because they believe Lyanna was kidnapped and she was too "stupid" to send a message, but because they - especially Brandon - are outraged that Lyanna and Rhaegar would ignore Rickard's right to choose whom she would marry, coupled with a Northerner's view of polygamy, and the importance of honoring the Stark's given word. Please note that when Brandon shows up at King's Landing demanding for Rhaegar to "come out and die" he says nothing about releasing his sister. Seems to me that is because he knows she wasn't kidnapped.

I think this is more or less right. It also feels right because it makes Rick & Bran about as dumb and lacking in political savvy as Ned.

I do think everyone in the thread has left out one crucial element. Elia. I think Rhaegar's wife may have been the deciding factor for Lyanna, the factor that finally persuaded her. It would make sense if she ran off not with Rhaegar but with Rhaegar and Elia. Lyanna would no more consent to be a mistress than Arya would. She would demand that she be a wife as well, and if she's going to be a sister-wife to Elia, she probably wants Elia to be on-board with officially sharing her husband. Everything makes more sense if both Lyanna and Elia are Rhaegar-prophecy believers/followers and intend to be sister-wives. Lyanna would also need to do this out of consideration of her children with Rhaegar, she wants them to be equal heads of the dragon with Elia's children, she doesn't want her child to be lesser, a bastard, a threat; she wants a fully legitimate dragon head.

-

It is also worth pointing out that women were property in medieval societies, and elopement could very much be considered theft or robbery. But I don't think that the Starks were pressing a property claim. They were pressing an honor claim. Now the dishonor may come from the loss of the Lyanna-cunt-property or the dishonor may have come from breaking the betrothal to the Baratheons, but they felt their honor had been injured, not by Lyanna, but by Rhaegar. It's important to point out that even if Bran and Rick knew it was Lyanna's desire to run off with Rhaegar, they still blamed Rhaegar, Lyanna's agency or desires did not figure in to it. Even if Lyanna was the cause of the dishonor, because she has a vagina they don't care if she's the cause; they'll blame the penis.

[chris.t.]

I'm just going to agree to disagree on this one. I just don't see how Rhaegar's decision to run off with Lyanna (with or without her acquiescence) ends in any other result than war, or that Rhaegar could possibly have done it without being fully aware of those consequences. Brandon may be at fault for getting himself killed, but I don't hold him at fault for going to King's Landing to protest Rhaegar's actions.

I'm perfectly willing to concede that we don't have all the information needed to pass judgment on all parties. I strongly suspect that when we do get the whole story it will be a true tragedy in that we will see that none of the parties really had a choice in their actions. Rhaegar did what he was destined to do, Lyanna had no choice, Brandon had no choice, and Aerys had no control.