So was Lyanna stupid or something?

[Salander]

Scenario 1:

Married Crown Prince has an affair with young noblewoman. It is a scandal to be sure, maybe big, maybe small.

Various family members on all sides are insulted and angry.

Over time, and with suitable 'compensations', these family members calm down and no major events occur. After all, House Stark can't really complain too much about the lost 'alliance' with House Baratheon, can they - they got a royal connection (possibly a royal marriage and Rickard's grandkids are in line for the throne, if Rhaegar chose or chooses polygamy) instead! Only House Baratheon really loses anything, and they still have the potential for a different political marriage instead, so they haven't actually 'lost' anything yet.

Scenario 2:

Married Crown Prince has an affair with a young Noblewoman. It is a scandal to be sure, maybe big, maybe small.

Various family members on all sides are insulted and angry.

Noblewomans brother insanely demands (publicly) the Crown Prince come out and be killed.

At this point, everything changes. Brandon has upped the ante so far now, committing actual treason, that someone is very likely to die now and major repercussions are sure. Aerys takes things to the next level, and war ensues, but Brandon's action is the one that changes the stakes from 'affair' to 'deadly'.

I don't disagree with any of this, except the assumption that Lyanna willingly had an affair. We don't know if she did or not. For all we know (and let's hope it is revealed soon), Rhaegar DID kidnap Lyanna, hold her against her will and repeatedly rape her in order to fulfill some prophesy. She wouldn't be the first Stark to have her romantic notions of courtly love exposed in a rather harsh fashion.

[Bronn Stone]

I don't disagree with any of this, except the assumption that Lyanna willingly had an affair. We don't know if she did or not. For all we know (and let's hope it is revealed soon), Rhaegar DID kidnap Lyanna, hold her against her will and repeatedly rape her in order to fulfill some prophesy. She wouldn't be the first Stark to have her romantic notions of courtly love exposed in a rather harsh fashion.

For the scenario that you put forward to be true, Eddard Stark would have to be the worst brother in the history of brothers. Eddard knew the truth, directly from Lyanna's mouth, but harbors not one ounce of anger toward Rhaegar. It just doesn't pass the stink test. You don't sit around thinking about the evil git who raped your sister with the only thought being "I bet he didn't patronize brothels". You want to rip his spleen out with a wooden spoon and make him eat it raw and bleeding. Robert reacts like a man who thought someone he loved was raped, Eddard does NOT. But Robert doesn't really know. Eddard heard it straight from the wolfmaid's mouth.

I am a bit skeptical with regard to the opinions of Targ/Dany loyalists. But I certainly don't think he was mad in the sense he was like his father. But people that up and believe that prophesy is about them are not usually all together with it. See the folks that think the end of the world is this Saturday for example.

People who believe in dragons and seven hundred foot tall walls of ice are nuts as well. Believing in prophecy in a world where magic is real is not the sign of insanity. In fact, the opposite is true.

[mshafty]

Hey everyone.

This will be my first post, so don't be to harsh. Been meaning to do it for months.

I think its easy to call people idiots because they got killed and started a war after the fact when you have all the information. Heres what I think!

Rhaegar probably was a little bat shit nuts when it came to his prophesy and he either a) convinced Lyanna to run off with him because he was handsome, romantic and gallant prince that told her she would have a son that would help save the world or B) he just plane took her and convinced her later she was needed for the prophesy.

I think that from Ned and the TOJ scene we can figure that Lyanna probably fell in love or at least accepted her role in Rhaegar's grand plan. We just don't know till Martin tells us. My take from Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar and Lyanna was only that he had great regrets, which could mean anything. For all we know he could regret that his sister was kidnapped and brutally raped (though I think it unlikely).

anyways were Rhaegar and Lyanna stupid. Yah a little, but Rhaegar was a Targ and probably a little crazy. He thought he needed to save the world and nothing else besides getting that stark girl prego mattered! (nice coincidence that she turned out to be hot and wild!) And lyanna sounds like she was adventurous and had the wolf blood. Plus she was an impressionable 15 year old who had a handsome prince wooing her. Could you imagine any 15 year old these days thinking very far ahead about anything? But what still doesn't make since to me is that they were both in hiding for a year when an all out war broke out. I think theres just too much info we don't know yet. But I do think that if Rhaegar is as amazing as so many people think he is (personally I think he was a dramatic emo prince who was borderline nuts) he should have expected a pretty big and angry reaction from the starks, baratheons and martels.

As for Brandon. Well I have a little soft spot for the hot headed older brother. I'm fairly sure that he was under the impression that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister. as someone with a sister who im very protective of, i probably would go in rampage mode too. Was it dumb for him to go and demand the prince's head in front of a nuts king. Yah, but honestly at the time he very well could have been thinking his sister was getting raped by rhaegar in the red keep and just wanted to kill the bastard. Frankly if my sister ever got raped I would hands down kill the man, im dead serious i would not wait for the police or courts, I would murder his ass, screw the consequences. Sure brandon could have waited and gather more high lords to try to appeal to the king, but what would that do? nothing. Aery's was crazy. I think brandon could have asked him nicely if he could have a quick visit with his sister and he would have been arrested and executed for question the monarchy.

Also rickard seems like a decent enough father. Yes he may have betrothed his daughter to robert without much consent from her, but honestly from his view it probably seemed like an amazing match. robert at the time was the head of a great house, tall, strong, handsome, seemed to make people love him and he was ned's best friend. Yah he liked to bang a bunch of chicks, but compared to her future niece's husband I would say he was a pretty damn good potential husband.

We will hopefully get more details later, but from the info we know once rhaegar and lyanna went off together war was inevitable. There were just to many powerful and important people involved and aery's was too insane for war not to take place.

just my 2 cents

[Salander]

For the scenario that you put forward to be true, Eddard Stark would have to be the worst brother in the history of brothers. Eddard knew the truth, directly from Lyanna's mouth, but harbors not one ounce of anger toward Rhaegar. It just doesn't pass the stink test. You don't sit around thinking about the evil git who raped your sister with the only thought being "I bet he didn't patronize brothels". You want to rip his spleen out with a wooden spoon and make him eat it raw and bleeding. Robert reacts like a man who thought someone he loved was raped, Eddard does NOT. But Robert doesn't really know. Eddard heard it straight from the wolfmaid's mouth.

No sorry, I think a few of Martin's characters would be up for that title before Eddard. My nomination would be for Gregor, but there you go then.

There was no point in Eddard wanting to rip Rhaegar's spleen out. Robert had already killed him. We don't know what Ned heard from Lyanna's mouth - except for "Promise me, Ned".

At this point in time, I'm going to wait until all is revealed. Right now, I tend to err on the side where Rhaegar took Lyanna to use for breeding stock in order to fulfill his prophesy. (We know from Dany's visit to the House of Creepy Things that Elia hadn't produced enough children for him).

Either way and I'm happy to be wrong, someone is going to be disappointed in the character of Rhaegar, Lyanna or Ned. This is pure genius from Martin (imho).

[Salander]

For the scenario that you put forward to be true, Eddard Stark would have to be the worst brother in the history of brothers. Eddard knew the truth, directly from Lyanna's mouth, but harbors not one ounce of anger toward Rhaegar. It just doesn't pass the stink test. You don't sit around thinking about the evil git who raped your sister with the only thought being "I bet he didn't patronize brothels". You want to rip his spleen out with a wooden spoon and make him eat it raw and bleeding. Robert reacts like a man who thought someone he loved was raped, Eddard does NOT. But Robert doesn't really know. Eddard heard it straight from the wolfmaid's mouth.

No sorry, I think a few of Martin's characters would be up for that title before Eddard. My nomination would be for Gregor, but there you go then.

There was no point in Eddard wanting to rip Rhaegar's spleen out. Robert had already killed him. We don't know what Ned heard from Lyanna's mouth - except for "Promise me, Ned".

At this point in time, I'm going to wait until all is revealed. Right now, I tend to err on the side where Rhaegar took Lyanna to use for breeding stock in order to fulfill his prophesy. (We know from Dany's visit to the House of Creepy Things that Elia hadn't produced enough children for him).

Either way and I'm happy to be wrong, someone is going to be disappointed in the character of Rhaegar, Lyanna or Ned. This is pure genius from Martin (imho).

[Valmy]

There was no point in Eddard wanting to rip Rhaegar's spleen out. Robert had already killed him. We don't know what Ned heard from Lyanna's mouth - except for "Promise me, Ned".

There may be no practical point for being angry at somebody who kidnapped and raped your sister after said person was already dead. But generally feelings of rage and anger are not based on practical points and logical considerations. Ned was not a robot. If Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister and raped her he would feel some sort of negative feelings towards him. The fact Ned does not seem to IS evidence of something.

[LadyMary]

Robert's Rebellion started when Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon Stark along with several important squires, and demanded the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. The reason they were killed is because Brandon rode to King's Landing demanding to fight Rhaegar, because he believed Lyanna had been kidnapped by him. We know she was taken by Rhaegar, but due to speculation on this board regarding Rhaegar's personality and his relationship to Lyanna, especially as in regards to a possible child and the Herrenhall tourney (that almost everyone here seems to agree on), I think it likely that Lyanna did in fact come willingly, and was not opposed to a union with Rhaegar (despite the fact that she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.) This obviously makes the Stark reaction unnecessary, as it seems unlikely that they would object to a marriage to the crown prince of the realm, especially if Lyanna was behind it (even though this would cause a scandal due to her betrothal to Robert and the unusualness of polygamy in Westeros.)

.. So why, if Lyanna wasn't taken against her will, did she, or Rhaegar for that matter, give no word to Rickard Stark about it? Even a "Hi dad, I've run away with Rhaegar so we can fulfill a prophecy, I know that's bad but he's like the prince so whatever" would probably have ensured that he wouldn't have done something aggressive. Of course Aerys reaction to it, branding it treason, was also unwarranted, however I'm guessing Rhaegar either didn't tell him about it cause.. well he's mad, or that he was against Rhaegar's dream - point is that Rhaegar/Lyanna should have expected some reaction to what they did. So, can anyone find a logical reason why they didn't make sure nothing bad happened because of their actions, or should I consider this a minor plothole in Martin's writing?

Dear Father,

I have decided that I can't spend my life married to a man who I don't love and who I know would be unfaithful to our marriage bed. Therefore, I've decided to elope with the man I love... despite the fact that he is being unfaithful to his marriage bed. But you know, whatev. He's so dreamy and there's this prophesy!1! Maybe you could send Robert a nice tavern wench to ease his pain. Hugs and Kisses. Your loving Daughter, Lyanna

p.s.: Tell Brandon not to do anything stupid. ;)

But seriously...it wouldn't matter what she said in a letter. The fact that a married man ran off with an maiden promised to another man, willingly or not, was still an outrage according to their beliefs and laws. If she wanted to get away without being pursued, she would probably have to leave in secret.

Until we know all the details, we can only speculate that Rhaegar was mostly a good guy who either (a) had a touch of madness about his prophesy that caused him to one day to steal Lord Stark's daughter and rape her 'til she produced a third head of the dragon, or (b.) they fell in love at Harrendal and Lyanna decided she'd be happier as Rhaegar's mistress than Robert's lawful wife. It was selfish on somebody's part and had a tragic outcome for a lot of people. Arranged marriages were considered contracts and vows. Very Serious Business. It was also very romantic and became the stuff of legend.

But my question is, if Rhaegar just needed a woman to bear his third child to fulfill a prophesy, wouldn't it have been more convenient if he'd found someone closer to home than Lyanna of Winterfell? Was there some significance to her being a Stark?

I'm inclined to believe that they fell in love. Meera speaks of the wolf maid crying over the dragon Prince's sad song and after the war those who speak of Rhaegar (except for Robert) speak of him dying for the woman he loved and fighting Robert for the woman they both loved, etc.

[Salander]

There may be no practical point for being angry at somebody who kidnapped and raped your sister after said person was already dead. But generally feelings of rage and anger are not based on practical points and logical considerations. Ned was not a robot. If Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister and raped her he would feel some sort of negative feelings towards him. The fact Ned does not seem to IS evidence of something.

I agree, but Ned does seem to block a lot of it out because some of it is too painful for him. I'm happy for events to unfold and/or be revealed, but I take exception to the assumption that Lyanna and Rhaegar had an "affair" is a fact. It might not be and we don't know that yet.

[Restless]

You're making the historian's fallacy, assuming that people making the decisions are able to see the results of their decisions as easily as we can.

Why is it so difficult to imagine that Rhaegar simply didn't see the Rebellion coming? And if he did see it coming, then why didn't he hang out in King's Landing to try to prevent it or nip it in the bud?

I hold him at fault, because he's an idiot. There were better ways to protest what Rhaegar did, but Brandon went the stupidest route.

LOL

So, you assume its ok for Rhaegar if he didn't saw rebellion coming, and in same time its Brandon the idiot who didn't realized that Aerys will burn his father?!

One is good, the other is bad. :tantrum:

So, until you admit Rhaegar was partly responsible for the rebellion, I'll write that he was an asshole, fully responsible for indirectly causing mass destruction to Westeros :fencing:

Or we may agree that the whole R+L is one of few weak links in ASOIAF, because in time of GoT GRRM was aiming for much shorter story which went out of control (as he wrote, he is gardener, not architect) :)

PS: edited errors

[Alexia]

I blame all three of them. Rhaegar couldn't have foreseen what his father and Brandon would do, but at the same time, he ran off with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell - without a single word to anyone. Something was going to happen and if he'd left an address and phone number he might have been able to contain it before it spiraled out of control.

Brandon acted like a hot headed fool. I"m not sure that any of the Starks ever believed that she was really kidnapped, honor-saving fiction notwithstanding, but someone upthread said it best - riding into the abode of a man called Mad King Aerys and calling for the crown prince to "come out and die" pretty much guaranteed that Brandon and his party would instead.

Lyanna gets the least amount of blame from me since she was so young (only 14, IIRC) whereas the other two were grown adults with no excuse, but color completely unimpressed with her. I empathize with not wanting to marry Robert but she went about things in a very bad way (to say nothing of the hypocrisy of complaining about Robert's philandering while running off with a married man) and ultimately, her decisions also contributed to the whole disaster.

Aerys of course is ultimately responsible for everything. While he was within his rights to execute Brandon and his companions, executing the fathers' took it way overboard and then calling for the death of the entirely innocent Ned and Robert was just stupid. But he was just insane so while his culpability is a given, not nearly so interesting to discuss as the motivations/culpability of those who are capable of rational decision-making and whose decisions contributed to the outcome.

[SFDanny]

I blame all three of them. Rhaegar couldn't have foreseen what his father and Brandon would do, but at the same time, he ran off with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell - without a single word to anyone.

How do you know this to be true? For all we know Rhaegar could have told his father he wanted to marry Lyanna and the same could be true of Lyanna with her father. We don't know that it wasn't known by both families to have been a mutual act of defiance for the couple to have eloped together.

[Bronn Stone]

But my question is, if Rhaegar just needed a woman to bear his third child to fulfill a prophesy, wouldn't it have been more convenient if he'd found someone closer to home than Lyanna of Winterfell? Was there some significance to her being a Stark?

Magic. The old line of Valyria weds the old line of the First Men. Whatever his parentage, the magic of the Starks is strong in that one.

[Dragonfish]

LOL

So, you assume its ok for Rhaegar if he didn't saw rebellion coming, and in same time its Brandon the idiot who didn't realized that Aerys will burn his father?!

One is good, the other is bad. :tantrum:

Read my posts again.

At no point have I ever claimed that Brandon should have predicted what Aerys would do to his father. I don't know where you're getting that. Neither have I claimed that Rhaegar's conduct was beyond reproach. Indeed, I have freely admitted that he may have had a little madness in him, at least to the extent that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. But apparently my position is unclear, so let me say this now without equivocation: Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Brandon all have their share of responsibility for sparking this war. None of them can be absolved of that responsibility.

Now, all that I've been trying to do in this debate is object to those who claim that Rhaegar is mostly responsible for the war, because "he should have seen it coming", while claiming that Brandon is absolved of responsibility because "he had no choice." Neither of those two arguments are valid, in my view, because one relies on the historian's fallacy, while the other relies on a false dilemma. That is what I've been trying to argue.

Of course, you might still object, as you did in part of your post, that the historian's fallacy ought to be taken into consideration in Brandon's case as well. To put it another way, if we assume that Rhaegar could not see the full consequences of his actions, then why shouldn't we do the same for Brandon? The answer, I think, is that the cause-and-effect is much simpler in Brandon's case. For Rhaegar to have seen the rebellion coming, he would have had to have anticipated the responses of numerous actors, including his father, Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and Robert Baratheon. In contrast, all Brandon had to know was that the laws of Westeros generally frown upon treason. So IMO, I think it's valid to argue that Brandon should have predicted the king would take umbrage at his threats toward Rhaegar.

So, until you admit Rhaegar was partly responsible for the rebellion, I'll write that he was an asshole, fully responsible for indirectly causing mass destruction to Westeros:fencing:

I've admitted that Rhaegar was partly responsible for the rebellion. I've never intended to argue otherwise.

[Chanur]

When did Aerys get the title mad king? It's entirely possible it came from that situation. Perhaps the idiot Brandon had no idea Aerys was that far gone.

There is a double standard here, people are excusing Rhaegar for not knowing how crazy his dad was then turning around in and in the same breath saying Brandon should have. Can't have it both ways.

[Dragonfish]

There is a double standard here, people are excusing Rhaegar for not knowing how crazy his dad was then turning around in and in the same breath saying Brandon should have. Can't have it both ways.

Whether the King is crazy or not, threatening the Crown Prince in his presence is generally not a good idea.

Also, I should note that I'm not saying that Brandon should have seen the entire Rebellion coming any more than Rhaegar should have. I'm just saying that he was incredibly stupid, and that he should have seen that his actions would at least have made things worse. The same could be said of Rhaegar, but I'd argue that things are a little different in his case because what he did was merely a slight, while what Brandon did was directly antagonistic.

[DurararaFTW]

Whether the King is crazy or not, threatening the Crown Prince in his presence is generally not a good idea.

Also, I should note that I'm not saying that Brandon should have seen the entire Rebellion coming any more than Rhaegar should have. I'm just saying that he was incredibly stupid, and that he should have seen that his actions would at least have made things worse. The same could be said of Rhaegar, but I'd argue that things are a little different in his case because what he did was merely a slight, while what Brandon did was directly antagonistic.

I'd say naming a girl his Queen and Love and Beauty in front of thousands of people including his own wife , her family, her bethrothed and his family is extremely antagonistic.

[Dragonfish]

I'd say naming a girl his Queen and Love and Beauty in front of thousands of people including his own wife , her family, her bethrothed and his family is extremely antagonistic.

How so? He's not threatening to kill anyone, which is what Brandon did.

[Lord of Brewtown]

I think there's a possible scenario that lies somewhere in between a) Lyanna & Rhaegar were in love and B) Kidnapping/rape.

Based on the fact that Lyanna was somewhat impulsive, and from what we know of the story, it's safe to say she was at least attracted to Rhaegar. At her young age, she probably wouldn't think a lot about the repurcussions to her family or Rhaegar's. So, let's say they did get together, and maybe even run off togother/have a fling. Maybe, Lyanna just wanted to have an affair to get back at Robert, or maybe like many young girls, she was fixated on the 'rock star' and would've willingly been with him even if for just a night? Now, whether one night or a short or longer fling (that maybe her brothers even know about) - what happens if she finds out she's pregnant, but wants to go back to Winterfell/not be around Rhaegar (maybe she can't marry him & there's a lover's spat, or the lustful relationship has cooled). However, Rhaegar decides he must have the child (due to the prophecy, or other reasons - he is royalty, and likely has a sense of entitlement - I certainly read Dany that way, and all of GRRM's characters have flaws). So, maybe, though there was no initial rape, there could well have been captivity/imprisonment of Lyanna.

I don't necessarily think this is what happened - though I kind of hope it is. For me, it helps explain the whole gap of informing her family & Brandon storming off. Also better explains the disposition of the Kingsguard at this time - which never made sense to me (3 of 7 with Lyanna, as opposed to King's Landing with Aerys, Elia, and Aegon)? Not all affairs that start out passionate end well. GRRM has touched on many real life characteristics/situations - why not that one?

[Dragonfish]

@Lord of Brewtown:

The idea that Lyanna initially went willingly with Rhaegar but later recanted, and was then subsequently raped, is an interesting one. I can't think of any evidence right now that would outright contradict it. That said, I don't think Lyanna got pregnant before she ran off with Rhaegar, because Jon was born around the end of the year-long war, meaning his conception must have occurred a few months into the war.

[Luin]

But why would she recant when Rhaegar controlls all the information she gets about everything? It really wouldn't be hard for Rhaegar to hide the cost of their decision from Lyanna, the Kings Guard are ordered to protect her, but that could also mean protect her from inconvenient facts can't it?