So was Lyanna stupid or something?

[Salander]

That doesn't prove he raped her, and note that Ned Stark has a lot of opportunities were it would be convenient for him to openly tell Robert she was raped.

Everyone in Westeros fits that description.

In part, I think that might be Martin's point.

You have shown a possible alternative point of view, except for the fact that if it was kidnapping why didn't Lyanna's father care? He doesn't negotiate her return, he doesn't mention her.

This statement assumes he didn't. I'm sure other events over-took him i.e like being burned to death by the Mad King.

[Luin]

In part, I think that might be Martin's point.

This statement assumes he didn't. I'm sure other events over-took him i.e like being burned to death by the Mad King.

1. Yes, but then again I think we could agree that with Rhaegar it at least seems out of character for him because of all the praise he gets.

2. Before he got to Kings Landing Aerys was behaving sanely and pretending he would release Brandon to him, so at least at first there was nothing to overwhelm him. Once at Kings Landing the king showed his true colors, but when not in sight of the King he couldn't predict the king would betray him once he arrived. There isn't even a polite "Your majesty I have nothing but love for your son which is why it thrills me that he has a liking to my daughter but I dearly wish to know his intentions with her", which is odd because he clearly thought the king was negotiating in good faith (and paid for thinking that with his life).

[Salander]

1. Yes, but then again I think we could agree that with Rhaegar it at least seems out of character for him because of all the praise he gets.

2. Before he got to Kings Landing Aerys was behaving sanely and pretending he would release Brandon to him, so at least at first there was nothing to overwhelm him. Once at Kings Landing the king showed his true colors, but when not in sight of the King he couldn't predict the king would betray him once he arrived. There isn't even a polite "Your majesty I have nothing but love for your son which is why it thrills me that he has a liking to my daughter but I dearly wish to know his intentions with her", which is odd because he clearly thought the king was negotiating in good faith (and paid for thinking that with his life).

As said above, I find the argument that Rhaegar couldn't possibly be a rapist because it's out of character, an incredibly dubious argument. Rhaegar was the Crown Prince and it's equally arguable that he would have had an enormous sense of entitlement which goes with holding such a position (the same one that got Brandon Stark sentenced to death because he threatened to kill the same). There are countless examples of people doing things that maybe considered "out of character" under normal circumstances, which look flimsy when presented with other information.

I agree that Aerys was insane and treacherous. Most of the fathers that went to KL would have little choice but to do so or be accused of treason. In essence: they had death sentences hanging over their heads whichever way they played it.

[Dragonfish]

Wow, go to work and miss tons of posts, but I can't stay to enjoy this exchange. Have to run again, so I will just deal with this quote. Ray, you are missing half of the problem. We know things were not all well between Aerys and Rhaegar. We also know Aerys has a paranoid distrust of the northerners as exhibited by his orders at Harrenhal regarding the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Lyanna and Rhaegar hide because they don't have the approval of either Rickard or Aerys. Under this scenario, they obviously think they can elope and both of the families will have to come to terms with their actions and accept their relationship. They don't count on Brandon's rashness or Aerys's homicidal paranoia. Their actions also piss off the Prince of Dorne and his brother, but that's a separate question.

Ok, I like this explanation. Accounts for things much better than what I was suggesting.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, with this issue out of the way (the question of why Rhaegar didn't go to King's Landing to moderate Aerys), the only example of "objectional" behavior on Rhaegar's part is his crowning of Lyanna. But that was more of a slight or social faux pas, and it's hardly indicative of general "douchey" behavior or of a proclivity to rape.

[Luin]

Ok, I like this explanation. Accounts for things much better than what I was suggesting.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, with this issue out of the way (the question of why Rhaegar didn't go to King's Landing to moderate Aerys), the only example of "objectional" behavior on Rhaegar's part is his crowning of Lyanna. But that was more of a slight or social faux pas, and it's hardly indicative of general "douchey" behavior or of a proclivity to rape.

It is a great way of thinking, which also explains why Aerys doesn't actually know where they are.

As said above, I find the argument that Rhaegar couldn't possibly be a rapist because it's out of character, an incredibly dubious argument. Rhaegar was the Crown Prince and it's equally arguable that he would have had an enormous sense of entitlement which goes with holding such a position (the same one that got Brandon Stark sentenced to death because he threatened to kill the same). There are countless examples of people doing things that maybe considered "out of character" under normal circumstances, which look flimsy when presented with other information.

I agree that Aerys was insane and treacherous. Most of the fathers that went to KL would have little choice but to do so or be accused of treason. In essence: they had death sentences hanging over their heads whichever way they played it.

That does show it is possible, but it is also possible that they ran off together. It could fit either way but I just think the pieces given point to consent. It could be proven or proven false next book these types of arguments are the natural side effects of years between books :cheers:

I also don't think Ned's father thought he was sentenced to death, I think he went their in good faith fully expecting to leave with his son, and to discipline his son for doing something stupid. If he thought otherwise why wouldn't he try and raise an army? If he thought it was consentual it would explain why he doesn't even mention her in his (what he thought would be) good faith negotiations between himself and the king.

[Salander]

I also don't think Ned's father thought he was sentenced to death, I think he went their in good faith fully expecting to leave with his son, and to discipline his son for doing something stupid. If he thought otherwise why wouldn't he try and raise an army? If he thought it was consentual it would explain why he doesn't even mention her in his (what he thought would be) good faith negotiations between himself and the king.

I agree with you, but I think the issue centres on "compliance". If Rickard had said: Aerys - I've got things to do and KL is a long way way ... Aerys would have sent the troops after him. Once Rickard was ordered to go, he had no choice to comply or face the consequences (and we all know the consequences were terrible). (The same goes with all the fathers that were ordered to go face the King). It was only AFTER the events at KL, that Jon Arryn raised the banners and called people to arms. I don't think Rickard Stark would have had a hope in raising an army that could have stood against the King and the loyalists at that time.

[Pate Peet]

Aerys became more paranoid after Duskendale, but isn't there some passage about his calming down some as well, something about that going to the Tourney at Harrenhall as the first time he had left KL in years.

Maybe Rhaegar was buttering Aerys up to call the council he speaks about to Jaime and then he meets Lyanna. Without Rhaegar there, there is taming of Aerys. The fathers arrive and become more demanding and tension rises.

How much experience do the Starks have with Aerys, they don't seem like they come down south very much. What they knew was likely mostly second/third hand.

[finalz1032]

Crackpot theory.

1. Lyanna loved Rhaegar.

2. She could not bear to wed the man who killed her beloved, said man being Robert.

3. After giving birth in the Tower of Joy, she fled across the Wall with the help of her brothers.

4. Hearing of the Raydar threat, she ventures south again to warn her family, adopting a new guise as a wilding woman captured by the Starks.

Lyanna=Osha

Holes in this theory: no one at Winterfell recognizing her.

Explanation: people seeing what they want to see, 15-20 years across the Wall taking a toll on one's appearance, all family old enough having left Winterfell.

[/crackpot]

[Cassie of Westeros]

Ned tells Arya that she is like Lyanna. They both have a wild streak, and Lyanna's got her killed. It could be that being wild got her kidnapped, but Ned's comment seemed to me more that her wildness caused her to run off, and running off with Rhaegar started a course of events.

[Flit]

I don't think Lyanna is stupid, far from it. I just think she's stubborn.

I'm sorry, if I was in her position and my father was telling me to marry Robert, that boreish oaf, whose only redeeming feature was that he could effectively swing a war hammer? If that's a redeeming feature at all.

The Starks are a proud people, Ned had torn himself apart over fathering a bastard (if he did). Their family gave a son to the Wall, because that is what you do. Honour is everything.

But to a 15 year old daughter, presented with Robert? Screw that for a joke, give me the sensitive musician. Bend her ear with a few tales of prophecy, make her think if she doesn't run off with him and mother a child, then the whole world will collapse. Rhaeger had the charisma to do that, certainly. Whether it's true or not is something else entirely. It's what she believed that's important. And 15 year old girls are remarkably easy to talk into doing things, it's that teenage brain at work.

As for leaving word, maybe she left it with a friend who giggled with her over such an elopement, and saw herself bound not to tell, and by the time she might have thought to, it was probably too late. We all know how messages can be diverted, and if Lyanna was convinced this child was important (again, whether that be true or false) she would know that if her family caught up to her, there would be tansy tea in her near future. Best to wait until it was tooo late, and by that stage it would have been too late to stop a war.

And when it comes to Ned and Robert, there is no discussion with either of them, (esp. Robert) when they make up their mind with respect to what is honourable. Can you imagine explaining to Robert that he just wasn't wanted by the supposed 'love of his life'? What would have stopped him from just killing the child, killing Rhaeger, and discarding Lyanna?

Rhaeger's motives are difficult to work out, but I don't think Lyanna's are so hard. She could have believed she was in the right, believed what others had told her, or just was too much in love to care and saw Rhaeger almost as a person she deserved, not Robert. Like I said, if I was presented with Robert, I would have found a way out of it, he was a hideous person.

[Xanrn]

Not this sodding arguement again.

1. ONE CASE OF POLYGAMY IN THE LAST THREE HUNDRED YEARS DOES NOT A GODDAM PRECEDENT MAKE!

Aegon the Conquerer was married to both his Sister-Wifes before he CONVERTED TO THE SEVEN and not a SINGLE Targayen had multiple wives after that point. Its not a plot point its BACKSTORY.

2. You do not keep a goddam Wife in a Tower in the Middle of Sodding nowhere, that's a mistress/kidnap victim thing. He knew he was doing something wrong or as Ran said he would have taken her to King's Landing or Dragonstone.

3. Rhaeger was clearly Mad, just not the kill people kind of mad he was the Baelor the Blessed kind, but he was obsessed with a Prophecy he clearly got wrong. He is a Targayen they are universaly egotistical idiots who thinks the son shines out of their arses. Even Aemon jumps straight to the conclusion that it most be Dany. When its clearly Bran because what other point does a 12 year old crippled boy with magic powers and a posse go North of the Wall to find the Children for...

Let me say that again BRAN IS THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED, Martin it practically hitting you round the head with it..

4. If Rhaeger married Lyanna why didn't he announce it to the Realm, oh wait because he was already married and thats why he ran off and HID with Lyanna.

You do not run off and hide in the middle of nowhere with your Wife.

5. Waltzing off with a 15 year old girl, wether she agrees or not is still kidnapping. If Lord Rickard her father decided she wasn't old enough to marry her betrothed yet which he clearly didn't by the fact Robert and Ned went back to the Eerie to continue being Wards of Jon Arryn and there is no mention of plans being made. She is certainly not old enough to run off with a randy egotistical douche.

Rhaeger and Lyanna was not some fairy tale love story ruined by the girls Elder Brother who thought of her as property, if he thought of her he sure did a shit job of keeping her, you know waltzing off a few hundred miles away from her and leaving her plenty of freedom to be a prat.

Its a the story of a Obsessed Arrgoant Egotistical Prince, a airhead naive young girl with wedding jitters, a frothing rabid dog with ptsd, a loose cannon with a short fuse and a certain whiff of Spider and Mockingbird floating in the Air.

Also the majority of the blame falls on Rhaeger shoulders.

He was the Crown Prince, old enough to know better, apparantly pretty smart but he still waltzed off with Lyanna.

He let the Realm go to shit and in the last few months thinks he can win against the Rebels.

[navahgar]

Not to waltz in at the end of this ripe argument you're all having, but I have a question related to this whole incident. Why does everyone assume that Elia wasn't up for the whole thing? She was apparently there when Rhaegar talked about his son having a special song, and being the prince that was promised, and all that. Is it so outrageous to think that she might have been okay with his 'infidelity' in the name of finding a third head of the dragon. I'm not saying R+L=J, but it seems that was Rhaegar's goal at least. Maybe Elia was on board. Dorne seems a land of greater sexual promiscuity than most of the Seven Kingdoms, and I never hear Oberyn, or Doran, or anyone else from Dorne complaining about Rhaegar's cheating.

I think it's possible that Aegon is still alive somewhere (Sam? (I hope)), and that Rhaegar planned the whole thing with his wife, and Lyanna was part of the deal.

[Dragonfish]

1. ONE CASE OF POLYGAMY IN THE LAST THREE HUNDRED YEARS DOES NOT A GODDAM PRECEDENT MAKE!

Aegon the Conquerer was married to both his Sister-Wifes before he CONVERTED TO THE SEVEN and not a SINGLE Targayen had multiple wives after that point. Its not a plot point its BACKSTORY.

This statement is laughably false. Maegor the Cruel had nine wives, and George says that other Targaryens probably had multiple wives as well. If you're going to berate people in all caps, at least get your facts straight.

2. You do not keep a goddam Wife in a Tower in the Middle of Sodding nowhere, that's a mistress/kidnap victim thing. He knew he was doing something wrong or as Ran said he would have taken her to King's Landing or Dragonstone.

Not if Rhaegar was worried about how his father would react to his "elopement" with Lyanna, or how he might treat her.

Let me say that again BRAN IS THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED, Martin it practically hitting you round the head with it..

Was Bran born amidst salt and smoke, underneath a bleeding star? Does he have dragons? As far as we know, the answer is "no" to all these questions. Meanwhile, Daenerys fulfills all of these criteria. Now, it may very well be that Martin intends to reveal that Bran is the PWWP, but it is hardly the case that he's been hitting us over the head with this. If anything, he's been hitting us over the head that Dany is the PWWP.

4. If Rhaeger married Lyanna why didn't he announce it to the Realm, oh wait because he was already married and thats why he ran off and HID with Lyanna.

When he came back from the war he found the realm in chaos. Where in the middle of all of this was he supposed to announce, "Oh, by the way, Lyanna and I are married." Everything we know about his attitude vis-a-vis the Rebellion implies he thought he could put it down in good order (which you admit is true). Perhaps he believed he could wait to announce his married until afterwards.

[Todd Sand bastard of AZ]

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Dragonfish]

Not to waltz in at the end of this ripe argument you're all having, but I have a question related to this whole incident. Why does everyone assume that Elia wasn't up for the whole thing? She was apparently there when Rhaegar talked about his son having a special song, and being the prince that was promised, and all that. Is it so outrageous to think that she might have been okay with his 'infidelity' in the name of finding a third head of the dragon. I'm not saying R+L=J, but it seems that was Rhaegar's goal at least. Maybe Elia was on board. Dorne seems a land of greater sexual promiscuity than most of the Seven Kingdoms, and I never hear Oberyn, or Doran, or anyone else from Dorne complaining about Rhaegar's cheating.

Actually, we know from a SSM that the Dornish were not happy with how Rhaegar "treated" Elia. Perhaps her views were different, but so far we can't really say.

[Timbits]

If by stupid you mean stupidly in love then yes. :blush:

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I believe Rickard and Brandon - and likely Ned and Benjen as well - knew all along Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. After all, the brothers were at Harrenhal with Lyanna and know of the events there. They, along with the rest of Westerosi nobility, know of the blue roses Rhaegar gave their sister. They know of her reaction to Rhaegar's song. They, I believe, know of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's roles in the Knight of the Laughing Tree saga. They know, I think, of the romance started there between their sister and the Prince. On top of this, Ned, at least, knows of Lyanna's reservations about her betrothal to Robert that follows the tourney. All of this is likely known to Lord Rickard as well via his sons or servant's reports, if not Lyanna's own words to her father - which doesn't stop his announcement of the engagement.

In short, Brandon and Rickard don't act the way the do, I believe, because they believe Lyanna was kidnapped and she was too "stupid" to send a message, but because they - especially Brandon - are outraged that Lyanna and Rhaegar would ignore Rickard's right to choose whom she would marry, coupled with a Northerner's view of polygamy, and the importance of honoring the Stark's given word. Please note that when Brandon shows up at King's Landing demanding for Rhaegar to "come out and die" he says nothing about releasing his sister. Seems to me that is because he knows she wasn't kidnapped.

Then its astounding that 20 year old Ned doesn't blame Lyanna for his brother and father's deaths.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Regarding Aerys: while there were no doubt more appropriate ways of handling the situation, he was actually within his rights to have Brandon executed (not just arrested). Brandon was objectively guilty of treason, by threatening the life of the Heir to the Throne. The excess comes with the treatment of Rickard and company.

[olennaredyne]

Brandon is hot-headed and temperamental. He may have gone after Rhaegar; but maybe he was just using fightin' talk to make a point cos he was mad. Lyanna is wilful and impulsive, she falls in love with glorious dragon boy who is sad with his wife and wants to run off and be happy with him. She doesn't think that much about her dad and brothers. When Robb marries Jeyne instead of a Frey he causes massive calamity that could perhaps have been more skillfully dealt with were it not that other grievances, deals to be made, and certain mad people got in the way. Lyanna 'marrying' Rhaegar could/would have had similar consequences that perhaps the Starks were trying to avoid by catching them early enough before they could cause the realm real harm, and just did a hell of a botched job; they underestimated how mad Aerys had become.

I really don't think the two are comparable. Robb and Jeyne had every legal right to marry, and Robb made every attempt to make amends to the Freys - offering Edmure, who is the Lord of Riverrun, coming to the wedding, turning away Grey Wind at their request, etc.

People agree that Brandon challenging the prince of Westeros to a death duel was "retarded" and there was no way he could have lived after that. The same can't be said for Robb. Everyone knew that the Freys would be offended; nobody actually predicted that Walder Frey would be such a huge fucker as to violate the sacred laws of men and gods alike and massacre his pledged king and his entire army under his roof. It would have been reasonable to denounce Robb as the King of the North, to turn their allegiance to Tywin, as the Starks feared. It would have been reasonable to turn their forces on him in open battle.

It would have been reasonable for Brandon alone to be executed or imprisoned. It made zero sense to execute the heirs and lords of three major houses in a way that made everyone think "okay, he's truly lost his fucking marbles. We need to get this fucker out of here because everyone's lives are officially in danger".

Rhaegar's reaction to his blunder is also entirely different from Robb's. As far as we know, he regards the rebellion as little more than a mild disturbance or grievance in his own self-presumed glorious journey to fulfill a prophecy, and never attempts to make amends or correct whatever communication was lost.

What you're saying, basically, is that the Starks "got in the way" and are primarily at fault for the following catastrophe because they (Brandon, Robb, respectively) failed to estimate how monstrous, sadistic, and downright savage their antagonists' reactions would be.

That doesn't make sense to me at all.

[corbon]

Not this sodding arguement again.

1. ONE CASE OF POLYGAMY IN THE LAST THREE HUNDRED YEARS DOES NOT A GODDAM PRECEDENT MAKE!

Aegon the Conquerer was married to both his Sister-Wifes before he CONVERTED TO THE SEVEN and not a SINGLE Targayen had multiple wives after that point. Its not a plot point its BACKSTORY.

Actually that is exactly what a precedent is. Never mind that your facts are all wrong. Or that you seem to believe that shouting makes you right, rather than boorish.

2. You do not keep a goddam Wife in a Tower in the Middle of Sodding nowhere, that's a mistress/kidnap victim thing. He knew he was doing something wrong or as Ran said he would have taken her to King's Landing or Dragonstone.

Yes, he's doing something wrong. He is usurping the right of the Stark family to arrange the disposal of their property marriages of their children to their own satisfaction - and causing them to break their word into the bargain.

That is bad but hardly something that can't be fixed with a little recompense. At the end of which he and Lyanna get what they want and everybody else will be happy. Rickard gets royal grandchildren, and probably a some good lands or castles and or plum political appointments, as does Robert (and another pretty young noble wife from somewhere, possibly still Cersei, so maybe he won't be happy!).

3. Rhaeger was clearly Mad, just not the kill people kind of mad he was the Baelor the Blessed kind, but he was obsessed with a Prophecy he clearly got wrong. He is a Targayen they are universaly egotistical idiots who thinks the son shines out of their arses. Even Aemon jumps straight to the conclusion that it most be Dany. When its clearly Bran because what other point does a 12 year old crippled boy with magic powers and a posse go North of the Wall to find the Children for...

Let me say that again BRAN IS THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED, Martin it practically hitting you round the head with it..

You'll forgive me for using this, but the set up is just too, too clean:

I'll give you this. You do appear to have been hit round the head with something, often and hard. ;)

Sorry, nothing personal, back to the commentary.

Rhaegar might be be a bit mad for prophecy. But nobody who knew him thinks anything of the sort.

The Targaryens are not universally egotistical idiots. They are known for a precarious balance between madness and brilliance. A number of Targs have been good or great kings with no sign of madness, idiocy or particular ego. And the sun pretty much does shine out their arse most of the time, because they are kings, and that is a universal attribute of kings. Mostly.

4. If Rhaeger married Lyanna why didn't he announce it to the Realm, oh wait because he was already married and thats why he ran off and HID with Lyanna.

You do not run off and hide in the middle of nowhere with your Wife.

You do if you are being a bit naughty toward your wife's family (as opposed to towards your wife) and your wife family is noted as being a bit volatile.

Disappearing gives everyone time to cool off before anyone can do anything too stupid.

Oh, wait, someone did something irrationally stupid that couldn't be predicted, and someone else responded even more irrationally.

5. Waltzing off with a 15 year old girl, wether she agrees or not is still kidnapping. If Lord Rickard her father decided she wasn't old enough to marry her betrothed yet which he clearly didn't by the fact Robert and Ned went back to the Eerie to continue being Wards of Jon Arryn and there is no mention of plans being made. She is certainly not old enough to run off with a randy egotistical douche.

Not necessarily. She is a woman flowered, regardless of being 15. She is not a 'minor' even if she is not married yet. This is not modern civilisation. Children become adults very suddenly, and very much younger than we are used to. Robb is a man commanding armies and winning battles at the same age. Sansa will be married year or two younger, as soon as she becomes a woman.

We don't actually know what the legal details are. But even if technically it is a kidnapping, it is still likely to be a lot less serious than if he'd stolen her against her will. If they did manage to sit down together and work out a solution, the 'price' the Targs would pay for Rhaegar's actions would undoubtedly be much higher if Lyanna was taken against her will.

Rhaeger and Lyanna was not some fairy tale love story ruined by the girls Elder Brother who thought of her as property, if he thought of her he sure did a shit job of keeping her, you know waltzing off a few hundred miles away from her and leaving her plenty of freedom to be a prat.

Its a the story of a Obsessed Arrgoant Egotistical Prince, a airhead naive young girl with wedding jitters, a frothing rabid dog with ptsd, a loose cannon with a short fuse and a certain whiff of Spider and Mockingbird floating in the Air.

The only thing clear is that you haven't read the story.

We still don't know all the details, but what you present matches almost none of them.

On the other hand that bastion of astute observation and clear thinking Robert Baratheon thinks the same way you do. :fencing:

Also the majority of the blame falls on Rhaeger shoulders.

He was the Crown Prince, old enough to know better, apparently pretty smart but he still waltzed off with Lyanna.

He let the Realm go to shit and in the last few months thinks he can win against the Rebels.

IIRC most people thought he would win against the rebels. IIRC he was actually winning for most of the battle.

The realm went to shit while he was neither King, Hand of the King, nor even present. So he didn't exactly 'let' the realm go to shit.

He did a minor naughty, and laid low for a while to let things cool off.

Next thing he knew a bunch of other people did some insane stuff and its too late for him to do anything about it.