A Thread For Small Questions VIII

[MinotaurWarrior]

What evidence supports the belief that Joffrey is the one who sent the assassin after Bran? While reading AFfC I got the impression that this was just the Lannister hypothesis, but people on this board seem very convinced. This wouldn't be the first time I missed some important evidence.

[Evamitchelle]

What evidence supports the belief that Joffrey is the one who sent the assassin after Bran? While reading AFfC I got the impression that this was just the Lannister hypothesis, but people on this board seem very convinced. This wouldn't be the first time I missed some important evidence.

Both Tyrion and Jaime believe it to be the case. For example, in Storm, when Tyrion gives Joffrey his wedding present and Joff asks for a new one, Tyron proposes a Vayrian steel blade with a dragonbone hilt. That's the description of the dagger in Bran's assassination attempt. Joffrey also hesitates before replying, or looks troubled I don't remember which and says something like "I'm no stranger to Valyrian steel". Then in Feast, Jaime and Cersei talk to each other about Bran's assassination, and when Cersei asks if he thinks Myrcella sent someone to kill Bran he thinks/says "No. Joffrey". I think it's pretty evident from those facts that Joffrey did it, especially since we know that neither Tyrion, Jaime or Cersei did it from their POV.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Thank you very much. All is illuminated.

[ryamano]

In ASOS first chapters Sansa thinks to herself that she has kissed the Hound. Did that truly happen? What I inferred from the text is that the only thing she did was touch his cheek, and then he left. Is she remembering it wrongly or did I understand the text wrongly?

[Talleyrand]

In ASOS first chapters Sansa thinks to herself that she has kissed the Hound. Did that truly happen? What I inferred from the text is that the only thing she did was touch his cheek, and then he left. Is she remembering it wrongly or did I understand the text wrongly?

She's remembering it wrongly. She's romanticised it in her head

[Kaitscralt]

Yup. GRRM himself said it is a case of an unreliable narrator.

[Lord Toblerone]

Did Lord Bloodraven worship the Old Gods? (Purely speculative, I wanna hear what you guys think)

His mother was a Blackwood, known to be a Southern House that keeps the Old Gods, so it's a possibility.

[Talleyrand]

Did Lord Bloodraven worship the Old Gods? (Purely speculative, I wanna hear what you guys think)

His mother was a Blackwood, known to be a Southern House that keeps the Old Gods, so it's a possibility.

He also used a Weirwood bow. Not sure if that influences anything but it just seems a bit odd to me.

[livewyre]

She's remembering it wrongly. She's romanticised it in her head

Is it though, she also remembers doing it at the end of affc. She says something like "he only left me with a kiss and a bloody cloak". Maybe the hound is remembering incorrectly, given how drunk he was and is throughout the rest of the book.

[Kaitscralt]

I was just working on a really long thread about Robb and Greywind's death and that while the Red Wedding was pretty epic, especially considering Robb's mistakes, the manner of his, Catelyn, and especially Greywind's deaths seemed like a bit much after everything the reader has endured concerning the Stark family. It wasn't so much that they died, but that Greywind died cornered in a stable where he was tied (Reynald did try to free him) and that their corpses were defiled and decapitated afterwards, then the wolf head sewn onto Robb's. My thread got erased because my computer messed up, so I'm really angry right now because it was a long and detailed, well-thought out rant, and I was about to hit Submit.

So now I just need to vent a little. Why was the sewing of the head onto the body necessary? What does GRRM have against the Starks, and why does it feel like the reader is being punished by this act that followed the Red Wedding. (Note -- I am not saying the RW should have happened any differently or not happened -- I am just baffled why we needed to learn how Grey Wind died or that their corpses were dishonored like that.)

It just feels dark for the sake of being dark. The Starks were written to be followed and loved by the average reader. There will never be suitable vengeance for the atrocities, and now all we have is a cripple, a baby, a little girl, a political puppet and a zombie (all characters that are among the most hated in the series, by the way).

When is enough enough?

(this does not need to be replied to, just need to clear my mind, but feel free)

[Talleyrand]

Is it though, she also remembers doing it at the end of affc. She says something like "he only left me with a kiss and a bloody cloak". Maybe the hound is remembering incorrectly, given how drunk he was and is throughout the rest of the book.

GRRM said that the hound didn't kiss her

[Rune Targaryen]

I was just working on a really long thread about Robb and Greywind's death and that while the Red Wedding was pretty epic, especially considering Robb's mistakes, the manner of his, Catelyn, and especially Greywind's deaths seemed like a bit much after everything the reader has endured concerning the Stark family. It wasn't so much that they died, but that Greywind died cornered in a stable where he was tied (Reynald did try to free him) and that their corpses were defiled and decapitated afterwards, then the wolf head sewn onto Robb's. My thread got erased because my computer messed up, so I'm really angry right now because it was a long and detailed, well-thought out rant, and I was about to hit Submit.

So now I just need to vent a little. Why was the sewing of the head onto the body necessary? What does GRRM have against the Starks, and why does it feel like the reader is being punished by this act that followed the Red Wedding. (Note -- I am not saying the RW should have happened any differently or not happened -- I am just baffled why we needed to learn how Grey Wind died or that their corpses were dishonored like that.)

It just feels dark for the sake of being dark. The Starks were written to be followed and loved by the average reader. There will never be suitable vengeance for the atrocities, and now all we have is a cripple, a baby, a little girl, a political puppet and a zombie (all characters that are among the most hated in the series, by the way).

When is enough enough?

(this does not need to be replied to, just need to clear my mind, but feel free)

I don't think GRRM thinks: "Ohhh my poor readers, should I really kill theirs beloved character?"

Is more like, IMO, "What a old dirty bastard would do to show the hole kingdom that no one mess with his family, killing is not enough, he got to send a message to all the 7 kingdoms."

[Kaitscralt]

I don't think GRRM thinks: "Ohhh my poor readers, should I really kill theirs beloved character?"

Well, it's his story and he can obviously bring it where he wants, but I definitely think there is some reasoning behind making a dark series needlessly darker other than showing us that Walder Frey is a bad mofo.

I get more of a vibe of, "Well Robb needs to die for the story to progress, and I'm bored of writing about Catelyn, so let's needlessly kill her off as well so I can refresh my interest in this story by adding 3 Greyjoy POV's that nobody cares about."

[Kariggi]

Does he? I don't remember that. Could you provide a citation?

It doesn't seem likely to me, because the poison came from Sansa's hairnet, and one of the crystals didn't go missing until after the feast. So Dontos would have had to grab one of the crystals from Sansa's hairnet during the feast, something that we're never told he does, AFAIK.

I stand corrected. A 'servant places the pie before tyrion and scoops some sauce on it'.

It must have been that I allowed both Joff and the Lady Alerie to affect my memory since they both indicate (though Cersie states otherwise right after) that it is the Pie, he states that it is very dry and needs more wine to wash it down, she states that he choked on the pie.

But I find no evidence to support my previous statement, and so will concede it may more likely be the wine.

[Knight of Happy Instance]

Anyone knows something about iced wine? Maester Pycelle says something about it, in the lines of "Jon Arryn liked to ice his wine" and we have some other mentions. I would not find weird to drink iced wine in the Eerye or in Winterfell, but to transport the ice to, say, king's landing, would take some effort. Did people do it in our history? Had access to ice before the refrigerators?

[Knight of Happy Instance]

Nevermind, I answered my own question.

Ice and Snow

The answer to the question of how did people in the Middle Ages cooled their drinks seems

blatantly obvious. They used ice and snow. But how did they have ice on a hot day, let alone

snow? How did they prevent it from melting?

In New Preservation Techniques, Giorgio Pedrocco writes “The use of snow and ice as natural

preserving agents goes back to ancient times. The homes of the rich contained wine cellars and

deeper underground spaces where ice and foodstuffs could be kept. Each town or village had one

or more icehouses – buried structures in which the ice collected during the winter was stored for

later use to preserve meat, fish, and vegetables.” According to Charles Panati in Ancient

Inventions “Even normal Greeks and Roman bought snow and ice imported on donkey trains.

Few could afford private ice houses. Most urban residents bought it at snow shops. In Rome deep

pits were filled with snow and covered with straw. Water melted and ran through forming a

bottom layer of ice that sold at a premium. Snow could be more expensive than wine.”

Charles Panati also states “There were ice houses in the Near East as early as 1700 B.C. when

Zimri-Lin, a ruler of Mari (an important city on the Euphrates), boasted of having constructed

the first ice house on the Euphrate… Alexander the Great built the first Greek ice house.” Icehouses

became more common after the 17th century started. Ice-houses were known in Colonial

Williamsburg and were written in accounts of 19th century farm life.

In Europe today, exist well known natural ice-houses, ice caves. Notable ice caves are found in

Slovakia, Macedonia and Austria. In a cave formed by a volcanic eruption, conditions can be

perfect for water to seep through the ground and freeze in the cave. A temperature trap keeps

cold air, below freezing, down in the cave; the same science that is used in modern store freezers.

The serving of iced beverages was quite a sign of hospitality. It has been said that after the battle

of Hattin in 1187 with the capture of Guy de Lusignan by Salah al-Din’s (Saladin) forces, Guy

was offered a glass of rosewater cooled with snow as a sign that his life was safe. Again, in

Baccaccio's The Decameron, it is written "And when they descended to inspect the huge, sunlit

courtyard, the cellars stocked with excellent wines, and the well containing abundant supplies of

fresh, ice-cold water, they praised [their lodgings] even more." (...)

It goes on.

http://medievalcuisine.madpage.com/classes/Beverages.pdf

[Yarl Snow]

Anyone knows something about iced wine? Maester Pycelle says something about it, in the lines of "Jon Arryn liked to ice his wine" and we have some other mentions. I would not find weird to drink iced wine in the Eerye or in Winterfell, but to transport the ice to, say, king's landing, would take some effort. Did people do it in our history? Had access to ice before the refrigerators?

Adding on to your own reply, my grandmother's family, living in the coutryside, having cows, being farmers and all that, used to go out in the winter and saw ice blocks from the lake, cover them with straw, put them in wooden cabinets etc, and use them all summer long to provide cold for preserving foodstuffs.

Living where I do, way up north, we even sometimes see snow remaining in certain places even in late summer, after long days of constant warmth. If you put ice blocks underground, in dirt cellars and such, I think they would last a very long time. But I could not swear they would last all through Westeros' multi-year summers. ;)

On an interesting note, here they are storing ice and snow during winters to use for airconditioning and such during summers. When it comes to cold and snow, we've got plenty of it!

[Dragonfish]

Over on the wiki, it says that Rhaenyra Targaryen (one of the claimants to the throne during the Dance of the Dragons) was in her adolescence when Aegon II (the other claimant) was born. But in the appendix of my copy of AGoT, it states that Rhaenyra was a year older than Aegon II. So which source is wrong? Normally I'd give greater credence to the books than the wiki, but it occurred to me that George may not have finalized the details surrounding the Dance of the Dragons when he included this bit of info in the first book, and may have changed his mind (or forgotten about this detail) later on.

[Knight of Happy Instance]

Thanks snow, this was very pleasently informative. Love these tidbits =)

[Evamitchelle]

Over on the wiki, it says that Rhaenyra Targaryen (one of the claimants to the throne during the Dance of the Dragons) was in her adolescence when Aegon II (the other claimant) was born. But in the appendix of my copy of AGoT, it states that Rhaenyra was a year older than Aegon II. So which source is wrong? Normally I'd give greater credence to the books than the wiki, but it occurred to me that George may not have finalized the details surrounding the Dance of the Dragons when he included this bit of info in the first book, and may have changed his mind (or forgotten about this detail) later on.

RHAENYRA TARGARYEN

The first-born child of King Viserys I, Rhaenyra Targaryen was almost ten years older than her half-brother Aegon. She was the king's only living child (two siblings having died in infancy) by his first wife, an Arryn of the Vale, and grew up expecting to become the first ruling queen of Westeros. When the second of her brothers died soon after being born, Viserys himself began to treat Rhaenyra as his heir, keeping her by his side in court and at council meetings. Many of the nobles of the realm took nte, so the young princess was surrounded by flatterers and favor-seekers all through her childhood.

Link : So Spake Martin, June 18 2006