Most Powerful Lesser Houses

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ramsay Penguins

If Marcher lord is slang, it is nevertheless still a specific description of a type of lord that existed in real life and which one can read about on wikipedia. So in the case of the North, they may just have formalized this into a title.

EDIT

For example I have this definition from a 10 second google:

"A marcher lord was a strong and trusted noble appointed by the King of England to guard the border between England and Wales".

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Not a poor argument at all. If they ruled a significant portion of the city, then the Graftons wouldn't be listed as the rulers of the city.

How much do you think these landed knights rule?

Obviously the Grafton's rule more, and have jurisdiction over stuff such as watches, port tariff, taxes etc.

I'm not sure how much they rule, but it wouldn't be 5%. I think they rule land out of the city, but their seat is in it. Grafton can not have the same as Royce using your logic. 1000 men I don't doubt, but that'd require going out of the city.

Ramsay Penguins

If Marcher lord is slang, it is nevertheless still a specific description of a type of lord that existed in real life and which one can read about on wikipedia. So in the case of the North, they may just have formalized this into a title.

EDIT

For example I have this definition from a 10 second google:

"A marcher lord was a strong and trusted noble appointed by the King of England to guard the border between England and Wales".

Slang in universe. It is a part of the title, not a rank. Marcher lords do not outrank other lords in terms of status, nor necessarily in power. Likely, but not always.

So you wish to suggest that the Glovers and Tallharts are the most powerful lords of the North? What do the Tallhart's need to defend against? The Ryswells? Why are the Manderly's, who are called the Warden's of the White Knife, not masters then? Because they are lords. Warden is attached to the title, it isn't one. For example, Master (yeah sometimes lord is used, but only in name, not title) Galbart Glover, Warden of the Wolfswood and Sea Dragon Point, Master of Deepwood Motte.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ramsay Penguins

You misunderstood me.

I'm saying Masterly Houses are Houses that are NOT lords, but have been pushed to a lord equivalent level thanks to the specific task they have been given by the Starks. So in other words, this places them on a similar level to the other main bannerlords. Not above them. But without that specific task, they would have been mere landed knights.

In the case of the Manderlys, they are already lords, and do not need a Masterly designation to lift them from Landed Knight status.

So in brief, a Masterly rank is not awarded to every Landed Knight. It is only awarded to very specific Landed Knights, and is a promotion to a lordly equivalent level, but for a very specific military reason.

Therefore, while Masters are not lords, they have a similar status. And this is not a designation given to every one of the hundred landed knights sworn to Lord Manderly, for example. Masters are elite Landed Knights. Serving an equivalent function to a Marcher Lord in the South.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ramsay Penguins

You misunderstood me.

I'm saying Masterly Houses are Houses that are NOT lords, but have been pushed to a lord equivalent level thanks to the specific task they have been given by the Starks. So in other words, this places them on a similar level to the other main bannerlords. Not above them. But without that specific task, they would have been mere landed knights.

In the case of the Manderlys, they are already lords, and do not need a Masterly designation to lift them from Landed Knight status.

So in brief, a Masterly rank is not awarded to every Landed Knight. It is only awarded to very specific Landed Knights, and is a promotion to a lordly equivalent level, but for a very specific military reason.

Therefore, while Masters are not lords, they have a similar status. And this is not a designation given to every one of the hundred landed knights sworn to Lord Manderly, for example. Masters are elite Landed Knights. Serving an equivalent function to a Marcher Lord in the South.

Why not promote to lord? Why promote to master? They aren't promoted landed knights, since they weren't ever landed knights. They were always masters I think.

Serving an equivalent function?? Marcher lords are lord of the Dornish Marches (stormlands and Reach I think, since there are castles in the Dornish Marches in the Reach). Lords. Masters would be as you suggested, promoted landed knights, which would then be Marcher Knights? I think when we see a promotion of a knight to a lord (Selmy, in the Marchers), they go from Knight of Harvest Hall to (marcher) Lord of Harvest Hall. Not Knight to Master (although this may be an error, since there is no apparent reason for the promotion, like??? and who would do it anyway, Joffrey?). Nope, landed knights can be lord equivalents anyway. Clearly they aren't landed knights since they rule over a large portion of the wolfswood, and have (lordly/chiefly) vassals of their own, which puts them above some lords. And Wardens? No. Tallharts aren't stopping any Ryswells, and rarely would a warden title for the Glovers be activated. Dagon and Balon are the only reavers in 100 years.

Masters=/=Marcher lords.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ramsay

What is your position then? Are you saying that Masterly Houses are not lords, nor are they landed knights? What are they then?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ramsay

What is your position then? Are you saying that Masterly Houses are not lords, nor are they landed knights? What are they then?

Masters. An equivalent to a landed knight, without the knighthood.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ramsay

Not possible.

Because there are petty lords sworn to Deepwood Motte. And you can't have lords sworn to landed knight equivalents. They have to be at a higher level.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ramsay

Not possible.

Because there are petty lords sworn to Deepwood Motte. And you can't have lords sworn to landed knight equivalents. They have to be at a higher level.

Very possible. They are equivalents, not landed knights. And those petty lords are very First Men things, like clans. The Bole, The Forrester etc. So I don't know if the lord>knight (lord>master) applies, since those lords are chiefs.

I think maybe a landed knight who is not a knight will adopt the title of master or lord (or if a woman, lady or mistress). But then they'd be petty lords (I don't think petty lords are a rank, but maybe that is what they are).

[Free Northman Reborn]

We don't know the extent to which House Forrester's depiction in the game is accurate. It may even be that Martin fully agrees with the way in which House Forrester was fleshed out. He certainly commented on his blog that they did a good job with the game story.

So, if House Forrester indeed resembles the House in the game, they are no mere clan. They are lords.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

We don't know the extent to which House Forrester's depiction in the game is accurate. It may even be that Martin fully agrees with the way in which House Forrester was fleshed out. He certainly commented on his blog that they did a good job with the game story.

So, if House Forrester indeed resembles the House in the game, they are no mere clan. They are lords.

Chiefly lords dun dun dun. Then perhaps they outrank lords. House Forrester would still be petty lords. If petty lord is a rank (such as Manderly sort of implies), it may be that Masters outrank them. Perhaps even landed knights outrank them, but it's the justice bit that levels the playing field.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Now we are getting somewhere. From Manderly's description, landed knights are far more common than petty lords. And we know that lords outrank landed knights in the feudal system.

So, if petty lords can be sworn to Masterly Houses, it seems to me that the rank has to go:

Landed Knight

Petty Lord

Masterly House

Great Lord

House Paramount.

Meaning that every landed knight equivalent is not a Masterly House. Only a select few are. And it bestows on them much greater status and authority.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Now we are getting somewhere. From Manderly's description, landed knights are far more common than petty lords. And we know that lords outrank landed knights in the feudal system.

So, if petty lords can be sworn to Masterly Houses, it seems to me that the rank has to go:

Landed Knight

Petty Lord

Masterly House

Great Lord

House Paramount.

Meaning that every landed knight equivalent is not a Masterly House. Only a select few are. And it bestows on them much greater status and authority.

Well, we don't know if petty lords in the north are the same are like southern petty lords, which might not even exist. Maybe petty lords are the landed knights without knighthoods?

Great lords are the Paramount house, so;

Great Lords Paramount

Major lords/Minor lords (in terms of power major>minor, but in terms of rank, a lord is a lord)

Masters.

Petty Lords (N)/Landed knights (S/N).

Which means that petty lords are below both landed knights and masters, since we know petty lords are not landed knight. That bestows status, but not authority, and not the same rank as a "marcher" lord (a lord who lives in the marches).

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ramsay

We know from Martin himself that in his system there are lesser lords sworn to the major lords. A Karstark or Bolton or Manderly is just one step below House Stark. They will have at least another level of lords sitting below them, before you get to the lowest possible level, which is landed knight.

Therefore, when Lord Manderly tries to impress Stannis's envoy with how many Houses owe fealty to him, there is no way that he would leave out his most powerful bannermen - which would be the lords immediately below him, and only mention landed knights and "petty lords" of a type that fall even below landed knights.

Therefore these petty lords have to be the lords that fall between a Major Lord like Manderly, and a landed knight. Given the pyramid structure of the feudal system, it makes further sense that the lower you go down the structure, the more Houses you will find. Hence the progress from:

Manderly - 1

Petty Lord - 12

Landed Knight - 100

makes perfect sense.

For the North as a whole, you could construct a rough pyramid, by extrapolation, that then goes something like:

Stark - 1

Major lords - 18

Petty lords - Around 5-10 times that number = 100+

Landed Knight equivalents - Around 5-10 times the number of petty lords = 500-1000+

Masterly Houses are then a special case, sitting somewhere just below a Major lord. So far we know of only 2 such Houses.

[GallowsKnight]

Redwyne!? They have a lot of ships, but not a lot of men I'm thinking.

200 ships with maybe 20 men at arms/marines that's about 4000 maybe? Plus you know 1000 merchant ships and whalers. A whole fertile island. A monopoly on white wine.

Dude has wealth, men and power.

Manderly is stronger in men of course and he has a city. They're about the same level. With hightower above and everyone way below.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

200 ships with maybe 20 men at arms/marines that's about 4000 maybe? Plus you know 1000 merchant ships and whalers. A whole fertile island. A monopoly on white wine.

Dude has wealth, men and power.

Manderly is stronger in men of course and he has a city. They're about the same level. With hightower above and everyone way below.

Wealth is not power, power refers to manpower, at least it has been in this topic. Sailors are not often soldiers. 200 ships that aren't all warships. 200 ships manned by men all over the Reach, not solely Redwyne men.

Dude has an island, which requires lots of men to maintain, so yeah perhaps 4000 I guess, which is less then Royce and others imo. The Iron Islands can only field about 3500 men per island imo, so I guess that works well.

Ramsay

We know from Martin himself that in his system there are lesser lords sworn to the major lords. A Karstark or Bolton or Manderly is just one step below House Stark. They will have at least another level of lords sitting below them, before you get to the lowest possible level, which is landed knight.

Therefore, when Lord Manderly tries to impress Stannis's envoy with how many Houses owe fealty to him, there is no way that he would leave out his most powerful bannermen - which would be the lords immediately below him, and only mention landed knights and "petty lords" of a type that fall even below landed knights.

Therefore these petty lords have to be the lords that fall between a Major Lord like Manderly, and a landed knight. Given the pyramid structure of the feudal system, it makes further sense that the lower you go down the structure, the more Houses you will find. Hence the progress from:

Manderly - 1

Petty Lord - 12

Landed Knight - 100

makes perfect sense.

For the North as a whole, you could construct a rough pyramid, by extrapolation, that then goes something like:

Stark - 1

Major lords - 18

Petty lords - Around 5-10 times that number = 100+

Landed Knight equivalents - Around 5-10 times the number of petty lords = 500-1000+

Masterly Houses are then a special case, sitting somewhere just below a Major lord. So far we know of only 2 such Houses.

Ok, so minor lords such as Mormonts can be sworn to Starks. Same with major lords, like Bolton, sworn to Stark. Underneath them would be other lords, which are petty lords. Stout under Dustin, for example. Then landed knights. And since masterly houses control petty lords (Forrester under Glover), I'd put Glover as a minor lord, under Stark. Which makes masters minor lord equivalents. But since they are only one rank below Starks, they'd be same tier as both major and minor lords, which I'm not thinking. So I propose;

Paramount. Stark

Major/Minor lords. Bolton/Mormont

Master (sworn to paramount=major/minor lord; sworn to major/minor lord=landed knight). Glover.

Petty lords (sworn to major house=petty lord; sworn to master/minor lord=landed knight).

Landed knights. We don't know of any landed knight in the north do we? Insert Manderly cousin here.

However, petty lords can be weaker then landed knights, and landed knights as powerful as minor lords. It isn't a perfect system.

And obviously your pyramid is far from perfect either (Woolfield are minor lords, but are they sworn to Manderly (which would make them a petty lord) same with Slate, and they might be lords on their own or not). And houses like the Skagosi and Mountain Clans can be put anywhere really.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ramsay Penguins

That is becoming more realistic, yes.

I fully agree that the pyramid is not a perfect one, with much overlap between ranks vs power.

But I disagree that the Mormonts are a minor House. They are a major House, certainly in stature. And in strength as well, given that they can raise well above 1000 armed men at the very least.

None of the minor Houses sworn directly to House Stark have been named yet. These would be the petty House equivalents situated around Winterfell itself.

I'm proposing that the Major lords refer to pretty much any lord of lesser stature than themselves, as petty lords. Hence petty lord covers a range from just above the rank of Landed Knight, right up to a lord that is just below Major lord status.

For example, in Manderly's case, it is very likely that many of his dozen petty lords could have Landed Knights sworn to them, making them quite powerful in their own right.

Masterly House remains a mystery to me. I have proposed some potential answers to the Masterly House quandary, but I suspect that the real answer will be more specific to a particular House's history, rather than being highly systematic in nature.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ramsay Penguins

That is becoming more realistic, yes.

I fully agree that the pyramid is not a perfect one, with much overlap between ranks vs power.

But I disagree that the Mormonts are a minor House. They are a major House, certainly in stature. And in strength as well, given that they can raise well above 1000 armed men at the very least.

None of the minor Houses sworn directly to House Stark have been named yet. These would be the petty House equivalents situated around Winterfell itself.

I'm proposing that the Major lords refer to pretty much any lord of lesser stature than themselves, as petty lords. Hence petty lord covers a range from just above the rank of Landed Knight, right up to a lord that is just below Major lord status.

For example, in Manderly's case, it is very likely that many of his dozen petty lords could have Landed Knights sworn to them, making them quite powerful in their own right.

Masterly House remains a mystery to me. I have proposed some potential answers to the Masterly House quandary, but I suspect that the real answer will be more specific to a particular House's history, rather than being highly systematic in nature.

Mormont's are a minor house compared to the other major houses. I think 1000 or a little over is all they got. Way not "well over". Same with Reeds and both Flints. I think 1000 is all they really got. Flint has small lands, or is plagued by infertile land and ironborn. Minor is Mormont, while petty is Poole, Cassel, Mollen etc, since their lands are within Stark lands. It's only because the Mormont's get their own island.

To bolster Manderly size I know it is sometimes said that Manderly has 100 landed knights directly and his dozen petty lords have more, but I think 100 in total. Not that petty lords don't have sworn knights, but they are included in the 100 number. Manderly's strength still remains a mystery.

Eh, I'd prefer something systematic, but feudalism is messed up anyway.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Mormont is a major House. Of course there will be range for major Houses, as for lesser Houses. And in the North that range seems to be from around 1000 men up to maybe 8000 men or whatever the Manderly limit is.

But the same applies to petty lords. What would you call a lord who has extensive lands, landed knights that owe fealty to him, multiple keeps and a score of villages under his control, but he is still sworn to House Manderly?

He may be able to raise 800 men for all we know, and rule everything in a 30 mile radius. But he is still not a Major lord sworn directly to House Stark. In Manderly's world, he is still a petty lord. Just like the guy with only one keep and a village next to it.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Mormont is a major House. Of course there will be range for major Houses, as for lesser Houses. And in the North that range seems to be from around 1000 men up to maybe 8000 men or whatever the Manderly limit is.

But the same applies to petty lords. What would you call a lord who has extensive lands, landed knights that owe fealty to him, multiple keeps and a score of villages under his control, but he is still sworn to House Manderly?

He may be able to raise 800 men for all we know, and rule everything in a 30 mile radius. But he is still not a Major lord sworn directly to House Stark. In Manderly's world, he is still a petty lord. Just like the guy with only one keep and a village next to it.

I missed a capital letter. They are a Major house, but not a major house. A minor Major house. My bad!

Yeah agreed. 8000 seems high for Manderly, although I don't know the maths with the more heavy horse thingy.

[Lee-Sensei]

Obviously the Grafton's rule more, and have jurisdiction over stuff such as watches, port tariff, taxes etc.

I'm not sure how much they rule, but it wouldn't be 5%. I think they rule land out of the city, but their seat is in it. Grafton can not have the same as Royce using your logic. 1000 men I don't doubt, but that'd require going out of the city.

I'm not saying they have they have the same number as the Royces. They should have more than 1,000. House Templeton is a knightly Hose and can produce more than 1,000.