Most Powerful Lesser Houses

[John Hulboy]

All the great houses have many powerful bannermen .the Hightowers Tarlys Rowan Yronwoods Daynes Boltons Harlaws Royce could all be considered rivals to thrte liege .great topic

[Ramsay's Penguins]

1) What? When did I say they only ruled in the city. Again. The Shetts rule a tower. The Raftons rule the city.

Oh, much of it, thats true. Not all, however. I am well loved in Gulltown, and have some lordly friends of mine own as well. Grafton, Lynderly, Lyonel Corbray.

2) "Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place," he told her afterward. "My father had the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey. Only strength keeps such men in their place. The moment they smell weakness . . . during the Age of Heroes, the Boltons used to flay the Starks and wear their skins as cloaks."

You're arguing with George here.

3) No. Because they don't only have Gulltown.

Pages 14 and 15. You keep referring to them ruling the city. They share the city with Shett as Little Dragon said.

2. And who is the rival in the Vale? I've given you points. Graft pon is not indicated to be the Arryn rival. Royce is a better rival.

3. Well you never said that. Now your dancing to a different tune. But give exposition of borders, I don't think ther lands extend far.

[GallowsKnight]

Wealth is not power, power refers to manpower, at least it has been in this topic. Sailors are not often soldiers. 200 ships that aren't all warships. 200 ships manned by men all over the Reach, not solely Redwyne men.

Dude has an island, which requires lots of men to maintain, so yeah perhaps 4000 I guess, which is less then Royce and others imo. The Iron Islands can only field about 3500 men per island imo, so I guess that works well.

I agree wealth is not automatically power, but it certainly helps a lot.

I agree sailors aren't soldiers. That's why I didn't say Redwyne has ~20,000-40,000 men (200 shipsx100-200 men) at his disposal. Which is probably the number of sailor he roughly has. But those ship do have soliders on them. Archers, men at arms. "Marines" if you will even though they don't use that term in Westeros.

So as I low ball, suggesting 20men per ship that are professional fighters, I guessed maybe 4000 men at arms. That's not taking into account possible land levies he can raise too which are unknown. But he has an island the size of Bear Island/Tarth/Great Wyk in the most fertile longitude in Westeros. There might be more.

200 ships that ARE warships and 1000 that are commercial. A fleet that is double the Iron Fleet and rivals the Kings own navy. As well as a commercial fleet that rivals the Thirteen of Qarth.

Yes the sailors are probably recruited from all over the reach (even the whole Seven Kingdoms, heck some probably even come from Essos). But I imagine HE pays them. Sailors work differently to levies, they're cheaper but required full time.

An island is a defensive multiplier. Anyone wanting to invade it needs ships, warships and all the provisions that entails. It's a great advantage for him too.

So compared to say Manderly, yes Manderly could bring twice as many land troops than Lord Redwyne. But Redwyne's power is versatile, he has adequate land power, huge navy power, vast economic power and a defensible fiefdom.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I agree wealth is not automatically power, but it certainly helps a lot.

I agree sailors aren't soldiers. That's why I didn't say Redwyne has ~20,000-40,000 men (200 shipsx100-200 men) at his disposal. Which is probably the number of sailor he roughly has. But those ship do have soliders on them. Archers, men at arms. "Marines" if you will even though they don't use that term in Westeros.

So as I low ball, suggesting 20men per ship that are professional fighters, I guessed maybe 4000 men at arms. That's not taking into account possible land levies he can raise too which are unknown. But he has an island the size of Bear Island/Tarth/Great Wyk in the most fertile longitude in Westeros. There might be more.

200 ships that ARE warships and 1000 that are commercial. A fleet that is double the Iron Fleet and rivals the Kings own navy. As well as a commercial fleet that rivals the Thirteen of Qarth.

Yes the sailors are probably recruited from all over the reach (even the whole Seven Kingdoms, heck some probably even come from Essos). But I imagine HE pays them. Sailors work differently to levies, they're cheaper but required full time.

An island is a defensive multiplier. Anyone wanting to invade it needs ships, warships and all the provisions that entails. It's a great advantage for him too.

So compared to say Manderly, yes Manderly could bring twice as many land troops than Lord Redwyne. But Redwyne's power is versatile, he has adequate land power, huge navy power, vast economic power and a defensible fiefdom.

Royal Fleet is 200 ships iirc. I agree 4000 men, but the fleet is manned by men from all over the Reach.

I think of the fleet 4000 will be his own men (all he can raise) who probably get bigger ships.

Other houses fill up the other 15k ships space.

Otherwise, agreed. Manderly has more soldiers though IMO.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Royal Fleet is 200 ships iirc. I agree 4000 men, but the fleet is manned by men from all over the Reach.

I think of the fleet 4000 will be his own men (all he can raise) who probably get bigger ships.

Other houses fill up the other 15k ships space.

Otherwise, agreed. Manderly has more soldiers though IMO.

It's kind of ambiguous, Stannis has 200 ships on the Blackwater, Joff has 50, but of Stannis' ships 30 are Lysene, ~20 are Myrish, another 40-50 or so are civilian ships converted, and another 10-20 belong to lords of the Narrow Sea.

So the Royal Fleet has ~120-150 warships, with another 20 or so sworn to the Crownlands lords and the ability to commandeer civilian ships or hire sellsails if necessary.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

It's kind of ambiguous, Stannis has 200 ships on the Blackwater, Joff has 50, but of Stannis' ships 30 are Lysene, ~20 are Myrish, another 40-50 or so are civilian ships converted, and another 10-20 belong to lords of the Narrow Sea.

So the Royal Fleet has ~120-150 warships, with another 20 or so sworn to the Crownlands lords and the ability to commandeer civilian ships or hire sellsails if necessary.

Ahh right. I expect many of the lords to have a few warships and longships, Mallister level stuff. Tarth's, Estermonts, Swanns, Martells going all the way around the coast, which would probably be 100 more warships if they needed to invade Essos or something, but not a standing fleet. Those are the Royal Fleet, Iron Fleet and Redwyne Fleet, which is converted trade ships into warships, not all warships made for war iirc.

[Lee-Sensei]

Pages 14 and 15. You keep referring to them ruling the city. They share the city with Shett as Little Dragon said.

2. And who is the rival in the Vale? I've given you points. Graft pon is not indicated to be the Arryn rival. Royce is a better rival.

3. Well you never said that. Now your dancing to a different tune. But give exposition of borders, I don't think ther lands extend far.

1) I'm saying they rule the city, because they do. Gulltower is the seat of House Shett. Gulltown is the seat of House Grafton.

When Gulltown rose against him, King Gerold put

down the protests brutally, and soon the gutters of the town

ran red with the blood of the First Men . . . and women and

children as well. The dead were thrown in the bay to feed the

crabs. In the years that followed, the rule of House Grafton

remained uncontested, for (surprisingly) Ser Gerold proved

a sage and clever ruler, and the town prospered greatly

under him and his successors, growing to be the first and

only city of the Vale.

2) Except the Royces are loyal. One Royce stood in as regent for a child Lady Arryn and she lived long enough to rule in her own right. Jon and Yohn Royce were friends and they seemd to be ready to do it again. The Graftons, on the other hand were the only House in the Vale who took up arms against Jon Arryn during the Rebellion and are currently LF's main supporters.

3) No. I did say that. Maybe you skipped it, but i definitely said they control land outside of the city.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

1) I'm saying they rule the city, because they do. Gulltower is the seat of House Shett. Gulltown is the seat of House Grafton.

When Gulltown rose against him, King Gerold put

down the protests brutally, and soon the gutters of the town

ran red with the blood of the First Men . . . and women and

children as well. The dead were thrown in the bay to feed the

crabs. In the years that followed, the rule of House Grafton

remained uncontested, for (surprisingly) Ser Gerold proved

a sage and clever ruler, and the town prospered greatly

under him and his successors, growing to be the first and

only city of the Vale.

2) Except the Royces are loyal. One Royce stood in as regent for a child Lady Arryn and she lived long enough to rule in her own right. Jon and Yohn Royce were friends and they seemd to be ready to do it again. The Graftons, on the other hand were the only House in the Vale who took up arms against Jon Arryn during the Rebellion and are currently LF's main supporters.

3) No. I did say that. Maybe you skipped it, but i definitely said they control land outside of the city.

1. The Gulltower is in Gulltown. They share the rule. So do you think that they have lands outside the city? Because then they can be more powerful (not to rival Arryn though, or even Royce).

2. The Royce's besieged the Eyrie on two occasions. One is against Petyr, true, but that involves besieiging Robin too. They certainly aren't the perfectly loyal house.

Grafton's were not. Corbrays were too, and others as well. Sunderlands have been rebellious, why not them as the strongest? Are house Darry the strongest in the riverlands, by that same logic? The Arryns were the disloyal ones, not the Graftons.

3. When? Just then? Given the positioning of the mountains (although that depends on the map) and powerful neighbours, I do not think their lands extend far. Enough for maybe 1-2k men, but not to rival the Arryns. Not every region has a rival bannermen. No doubt they all have disloyal ones, but not Reyne/Frey level. We see no indication of that in the Vale, Stormlands and Isles, and the ones in the Reach and Riverlands are situational.

[Lee-Sensei]

1. The Gulltower is in Gulltown. They share the rule. So do you think that they have lands outside the city? Because then they can be more powerful (not to rival Arryn though, or even Royce).

2. The Royce's besieged the Eyrie on two occasions. One is against Petyr, true, but that involves besieiging Robin too. They certainly aren't the perfectly loyal house.

Grafton's were not. Corbrays were too, and others as well. Sunderlands have been rebellious, why not them as the strongest? Are house Darry the strongest in the riverlands, by that same logic? The Arryns were the disloyal ones, not the Graftons.

3. When? Just then? Given the positioning of the mountains (although that depends on the map) and powerful neighbours, I do not think their lands extend far. Enough for maybe 1-2k men, but not to rival the Arryns. Not every region has a rival bannermen. No doubt they all have disloyal ones, but not Reyne/Frey level. We see no indication of that in the Vale, Stormlands and Isles, and the ones in the Reach and Riverlands are situational.

1) Yes. The Gulltower is in Gulltown. The Graftons still rule the city. It's not as if they share half of it. And ts, I already said the control land outside the city.

2) As I recall, one time they layed siege to the Eyrie because an Arryn had turned on his brother and liege lord and was holding him hostage. The other time was to get rid of LF, a shifty character so they could raise SR themselves. One Corbray fought against Jon Arryn. Not all of them. We've been told out right that the Sister Islands are poor. Nope. The Graftons were disloyal. The Vale had every reason to rebel. Aerys was murdering their people.

3) Except we don't lnow how densely populated their lands are. Or how large there territory is.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1) Yes. The Gulltower is in Gulltown. The Graftons still rule the city. It's not as if they share half of it. And ts, I already said the control land outside the city.

They share control. That is according to the author.

q.Some sort of shared control?

"Sure, why not. Gulltown is either a very big town or a small city, plenty large enough for two Houses."

What land do they control outside of the city?

Is it not likely that they were punished by Jon Arryn after Roberts Rebellion and lost some of their land like the Conningtons, Darrys and Mootens did?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

1) Yes. The Gulltower is in Gulltown. The Graftons still rule the city. It's not as if they share half of it. And ts, I already said the control land outside the city.

2) As I recall, one time they layed siege to the Eyrie because an Arryn had turned on his brother and liege lord and was holding him hostage. The other time was to get rid of LF, a shifty character so they could raise SR themselves. One Corbray fought against Jon Arryn. Not all of them. We've been told out right that the Sister Islands are poor. Nope. The Graftons were disloyal. The Vale had every reason to rebel. Aerys was murdering their people.

3) Except we don't lnow how densely populated their lands are. Or how large there territory is.

1. Ok we can agree on this. As Drago said, they share it partially. But lands without the city is essential to have power. But that power would not give them the numbers to equal either Arryn or Royce.

2. Correct, but both of those instances they oppose the Arryns. The Royce's did it so their own Arryn cousin (married to a Royce) would be lord. Loyal only to themselves. Yeah imprison Robin so you can raise him great idea, starve the kid to death. Why the hell would the youngest Corbray fight against his brother and father? No. House Corbray supported the Targaryen's initally, and others too.

Rebellion is illegal, no matter the provocation. Grafton had every reason to remain loyal to the Targaryens. The Arryns broke the law. The Arryns were the ones in the wrong, by law of the Iron Throne. Morally, they are right though. Are there any other instances of disloyalty? No. While both Royce's and Sunderlands oppose the Arryns twice or more. There is no rival in the Vale, and if their was, it isn't Grafton.

3. Well lets see, fertile region, check. Large area of land, check. Strong castle and strong house, check. We know the Grafton's are rich. We don't know how large their lands are and how densely populated their lands are either (cities don't mean much when it comes to soldiers, this we know).

Anyway, this is getting redundant. House Grafton are not the most disloyal Arryn bannermen, nor would it seem they have the power to be a rival. There is proof against the reasons for them being so.

[Lee-Sensei]

They share control. That is according to the author.

What land do they control outside of the city?

Is it not likely that they were punished by Jon Arryn after Roberts Rebellion and lost some of their land like the Conningtons, Darrys and Mootens did?

If someone has 50 fries ad gives a way one, is that not sharing? The World Book says they rule the city.

We don't know, but it stands to reason. Do we know another House that rules a city and nothing outside of it?

It's possible, but we don't know.

[Lee-Sensei]

1. Ok we can agree on this. As Drago said, they share it partially. But lands without the city is essential to have power. But that power would not give them the numbers to equal either Arryn or Royce.

2. Correct, but both of those instances they oppose the Arryns. The Royce's did it so their own Arryn cousin (married to a Royce) would be lord. Loyal only to themselves. Yeah imprison Robin so you can raise him great idea, starve the kid to death. Why the hell would the youngest Corbray fight against his brother and father? No. House Corbray supported the Targaryen's initally, and others too.

Rebellion is illegal, no matter the provocation. Grafton had every reason to remain loyal to the Targaryens. The Arryns broke the law. The Arryns were the ones in the wrong, by law of the Iron Throne. Morally, they are right though. Are there any other instances of disloyalty? No. While both Royce's and Sunderlands oppose the Arryns twice or more. There is no rival in the Vale, and if their was, it isn't Grafton.

3. Well lets see, fertile region, check. Large area of land, check. Strong castle and strong house, check. We know the Grafton's are rich. We don't know how large their lands are and how densely populated their lands are either (cities don't mean much when it comes to soldiers, this we know).

Anyway, this is getting redundant. House Grafton are not the most disloyal Arryn bannermen, nor would it seem they have the power to be a rival. There is proof against the reasons for them being so.

1) Again. I'm saying third strongest. We're comparing them to the Waynwoods and the Redforts here. Not the Arryns and the Graftons.

2) What Arryn cousin?

3) To get rid of LF. They weren't trying to kill the kid.

4) Prove it. Give evidence that the Corbrays and others took up arms against Jon, because Lyn is singled out.

5) Umm... no it isn't. The feudal contract was broken when Aerys started killing Valemen without just cause.

6) Nope. I've seen no proof of that. Money is power. That's a big part of why the Lannisters and Tyrells are so far ahead of everyone. That's why the Hightowers, Redwynes and Manderlys are so strong.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

If someone has 50 fries ad gives a way one, is that not sharing? The World Book says they rule the city.

We don't know, but it stands to reason. Do we know another House that rules a city and nothing outside of it?

It's possible, but we don't know.

Does it? Are you referring to that quote above about the andal invasion, or is there something more?

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

I agree wealth is not automatically power, but it certainly helps a lot.

I agree sailors aren't soldiers. That's why I didn't say Redwyne has ~20,000-40,000 men (200 shipsx100-200 men) at his disposal. Which is probably the number of sailor he roughly has. But those ship do have soliders on them. Archers, men at arms. "Marines" if you will even though they don't use that term in Westeros.

So as I low ball, suggesting 20men per ship that are professional fighters, I guessed maybe 4000 men at arms. That's not taking into account possible land levies he can raise too which are unknown. But he has an island the size of Bear Island/Tarth/Great Wyk in the most fertile longitude in Westeros. There might be more.

200 ships that ARE warships and 1000 that are commercial. A fleet that is double the Iron Fleet and rivals the Kings own navy. As well as a commercial fleet that rivals the Thirteen of Qarth.

Yes the sailors are probably recruited from all over the reach (even the whole Seven Kingdoms, heck some probably even come from Essos). But I imagine HE pays them. Sailors work differently to levies, they're cheaper but required full time.

An island is a defensive multiplier. Anyone wanting to invade it needs ships, warships and all the provisions that entails. It's a great advantage for him too.

So compared to say Manderly, yes Manderly could bring twice as many land troops than Lord Redwyne. But Redwyne's power is versatile, he has adequate land power, huge navy power, vast economic power and a defensible fiefdom.

Good post.

[Lee-Sensei]

Does it? Are you referring to that quote above about the andal invasion, or is there something more?

Does there need to be something else? It's said straight out that the rule the city. They took it from the Shetts. The battle of Gulltown where the Graftons opposed Jon and Robert wasn't able to use the city until the Lord Grafton was defeated. If they don't rule Gulltown, what do they rule?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Does there need to be something else? It's said straight out that the rule the city. They took it from the Shetts. The battle of Gulltown where the Graftons opposed Jon and Robert wasn't able to use the city until the Lord Grafton was defeated. If they don't rule Gulltown, what do they rule?

They didn't take it completely from the Shetts.

Upon his return to the town, the Andal warlord claimed his good-fathers crown for his own, dispossessing the younger Shett and confining him to his bedchamber until such time as he had gotten Ser Gerolds daughter with child (after which the father vanishes from the pages of history).

Had he taken it entirey from the Shetts he would have exterminated the House, instead he made sure that a Shett got his daughter pregnant maintaining both Houses rule over Gulltown, with him at the time controlling both families.

They share control of the City. We dont know how much of a percentage each one rules, but the author made it clear they share it. Now while the Graftons may well have the larger portion, they probably do but there is no evidence either way, you continuing to down play their importance by continually saying they only rule a tower is wrong. As is your assumption that the Graftons own land outside of the City.

[Lee-Sensei]

They didn't take it completely from the Shetts.

Had he taken it entirey from the Shetts he would have exterminated the House, instead he made sure that a Shett got his daughter pregnant maintaining both Houses rule over Gulltown, with him at the time controlling both families.

They share control of the City. We dont know how much of a percentage each one rules, but the author made it clear they share it. Now while the Graftons may well have the larger portion, they probably do but there is no evidence either way, you continuing to down play their importance by continually saying they only rule a tower is wrong. As is your assumption that the Graftons own land outside of the City.

Except they did. It's said out right that the Graftons rue the city. Also, do you have an example of a House that rules a city or town without lands?

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Except they did. It's said out right that the Graftons rue the city. Also, do you have an example of a House that rules a city or town without lands?

The world books said that Graftons ruled the city "uncontested" when talking about early stages of the Andal invasion, so that information is outdated by a few thousands of years. The author says they share the city with Shetts. To what degree, we don't know.

As to the second part, one example would be house Shett before andals. They had lost everything to Royces except the city, that's why they invited Graftons.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Except they did. It's said out right that the Graftons rue the city. Also, do you have an example of a House that rules a city or town without lands?

The author says they share rule. Is he lying? Do you know more than he does?